Taoists exercises to differentiate what is real and what is an illusion

[Pietro]

While we are having our scales raising in the reptilian discussion, Taoist81 came out with a nice little gem:

 

Not everything you are told, read or even see is real. There are even Taoist exercises in which part of the success is differentiating between what is "real" and what is illusion.

 

I think this is very interesting and I would love to hear more on the subject. To the point of starting a new thread and inviting everybody who knows about Taoist exercises to differentiate what is real from what is illusory to share at least one of them, and a pointer to where we can find more.

 

For example Bruce use to start the topic on pornography asking what is the difference between sex and pornography, and the difference is that one is real and the other is not. One is a real experience involving real human beings, the other are images, and stories about other people (often fictionary) who are having that experience. The same difference that there is between reading about riding a bike, and actually riding a bike.

 

But this is an example of a difference. It is not an exercise. Anybody knows actual exercises?

Taoist81? Taomeaow? Wayfarer64? 林愛偉 (joy of cut and paste)? Yoda, Smile...? And any other Tao Bum.

 

And please stay on topic, and don't start all speak about pornography, we have plenty of separate threads on that. Just resurrect them if you need to scratch that itch.

 

Also, if you know similar exercises from other traditions, Buddhism, Christianity, NLP. Share them too. Just clarify the tradition, and possibly the context in which it is usually taught.

[林愛偉]

While we are having our scales raising in the reptilian discussion, Taoist81 came out with a nice little gem:

I think this is very interesting and I would love to hear more on the subject. To the point of starting a new thread and inviting everybody who knows about Taoist exercises to differentiate what is real from what is illusory to share at least one of them, and a pointer to where we can find more.

 

For example Bruce use to start the topic on pornography asking what is the difference between sex and pornography, and the difference is that one is real and the other is not. One is a real experience involving real human beings, the other are images, and stories about other people (often fictionary) who are having that experience. The same difference that there is between reading about riding a bike, and actually riding a bike.

 

But this is an example of a difference. It is not an exercise. Anybody knows actual exercises?

Taoist81? Taomeaow? Wayfarer64? 林愛偉 (joy of cut and paste)? Yoda, Smile...? And any other Tao Bum.

 

And please stay on topic, and don't start all speak about pornography, we have plenty of separate threads on that. Just resurrect them if you need to scratch that itch.

 

Also, if you know similar exercises from other traditions, Buddhism, Christianity, NLP. Share them too. Just clarify the tradition, and possibly the context in which it is usually taught.

 

Buddhism: That which arises from the discriminating mind is illusion. That which arises is the illusion and that which is used to discriminate the arising is also the illusion. That which is discriminating is the illusion.

 

Daoism: same as above

 

Method: Practice not labeling what is what; through the senses. Be with without the mind of being a being.

 

Discriminating here means any form of labeling what is what.

 

All that which arises is of mind, and the mind is which things arise in. Likened to a hotel. Customers check in and check out. The host wants customers.

The hotel is the mind, and the customers are that which arise. Wanting the customers is likened to labeling, wanting which arises in the mind, which are illusive. Not wanting, labeling is likened to the host of the hotel not minding who comes and goes. When the hotel is dropped, mind is dropped, there are no customers, nothing arising. Therefore no attachment to illusions, no illusions...no customers.

 

Peace,

Lin

 

P.S.- the above metaphor of hotel is an example taken from a Chan book I have. Forgot the name. It was a good reference, so I thought it would be a good example. The commentary on it wasn't from the book, just incase someone was looking for the commentary/explanation.

[beancurdturtle]

Buddhism: That which arises from the discriminating mind is illusion. That which arises is the illusion and that which is used to discriminate the arising is also the illusion. That which is discriminating is the illusion.

 

Daoism: same as above

 

Method: Practice not labeling what is what; through the senses. Be with without the mind of being a being.

 

Discriminating here means any form of labeling what is what.

But even discriminating what is a label and what is not is discrimination. Once you've labeled something as real it has been made unreal.

 

Reality is what is beyond thought. The way to approach that is through acceptance.

[林愛偉]

But even discriminating what is a label and what is not is discrimination. Once you've labeled something as real it has been made unreal.

 

Reality is what is beyond thought. The way to approach that is through acceptance.

 

 

Yes, yet it is the personal attachment to the labeling which makes it a hindrance. THat personal attachment must be dropped. Then it would be Wisdom.

 

Peace,

Lin

[nightwatchdog]

Excellent thoughts everyone. I would like to add that there is a very practical exercise to develop this quality of dropping mind, which ironically is also the foundation for all of the work done in either Taoist or Chan/Zen traditions; basic meditation. I preffer to use a Zen term, shikantaza, which means "to just sit."

 

This practice of paying absolute attention to the moment of sitting is what most eastern schools use to reveal the truth. Almost everything else we hear of is secondary to this simple, yet profound practice.

[Bum Grasshopper]

I thought the left brain/right brain illusion posted earlier brought this subject to light. I saw the dancer spinning clockwise, my girlfriend counter clockwise. Which one was reality?

 

I suppose neither. The dancer was an illusion designed to trick the brain. But I SAW the dancer spinning right. And seeing is believing. I suppose not.

[doc benway]

Reality - that which is present, in the moment - NOW..... NOW.....and ..... NOW. The experience of NOW....

Pretty much everything else is illusion - past, future ... all just memories and thoughts created by the projection of memories.

Real is NOW

Taijiquan is a wonderful exercise for training the continuing focus on awarenss in the present moment with the entire being.

Dao meditation is also very valuable for the same thing. In addition, meditation allows one to observe the workings of the mind and gradually become aware that "I" doesn't really mean anything. It is an illusion created by the organic being the serves as our frame of reference but it is not the same as "I"...

[SFJane]

give everything and nothing your complete and undivided attention and you will be doing Taoist Ontology

[beancurdturtle]

Yes, yet it is the personal attachment to the labeling which makes it a hindrance. THat personal attachment must be dropped. Then it would be Wisdom.

 

Peace,

Lin

I get you I think.

 

The personal attachment is one's judgment or categorization of the thing.

 

Where to my mind there is nothing personal about pure acceptance - it's just a knowing (maybe wisdom, but calling it wisdom is comparative in itself).

 

The exercise is to - as you can - watch your thoughts. When you see them colored by personal attachment, judgment, or categorization - take a mental step back and approach the thought again from a place of innocence and maybe naivete.

 

Believe it or not, we often have the time to do this. We are just too content to live within our habits.

 

Try to experience instead of analyze.

[林愛偉]

I get you I think.

 

The personal attachment is one's judgment or categorization of the thing.

 

Where to my mind there is nothing personal about pure acceptance - it's just a knowing (maybe wisdom, but calling it wisdom is comparative in itself).

 

The exercise is to - as you can - watch your thoughts. When you see them colored by personal attachment, judgment, or categorization - take a mental step back and approach the thought again from a place of innocence and maybe naivete.

 

Believe it or not, we often have the time to do this. We are just too content to live within our habits.

 

Try to experience instead of analyze.

 

 

:-)

 

Experiencing requires a view of an "I" experiencing. What is there that moves?

 

In reference to The 6th Patriarch Diamond Platform Sutra;

 

'One day while Hui Neng had arrived at a monastery, he observed two monks arguing. Their arguement was over whether or not the Flag which seemed to be flapping in the wind was actually flapping, or was it the wind moving. Hui Neng watched the two monks as they debated eachother calling eachother deluded.

Then, Hui Neng walked over and said " You are both deluded. It is your mind that moves." The monks saw this, and both awakened. At that time, the abbot of the monastery welcomed Hui Neng, and recognized him as the 6th Patriarch, shaved his head, and listened to him speak the Dharma. '

 

 

Try this verse I composed...and posted in the articles section:

 

 

 

The ground, seeds, outcomes arise.

Emotions, thoughts, our attachments of mind.

What I? What place a mind can dwell?

The emptiness of all reveals nothing to tell.

 

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

Edited October 26, 2007 by 林愛偉

[beancurdturtle]

 

Experiencing requires a view of an "I" experiencing. What is there that moves?

 

We have two different interpretations of "experiencing." You seem to be using the word in an active, purpose based sense.

 

I mean "experiencing" in a passive way. As a floating leaf would experience the current of the river in which it floats.

 

Or in a small celebration of your verse. "Experiencing" should be done as a seedling experiences earth, water, and sun.

[林愛偉]

We have two different interpretations of "experiencing." You seem to be using the word in an active, purpose based sense.

 

I mean "experiencing" in a passive way. As a floating leaf would experience the current of the river in which it floats.

 

Or in a small celebration of your verse. "Experiencing" should be done as a seedling experiences earth, water, and sun.

 

 

 

Nope. I'm not talking of experiencing whatsoever. I am saying that even recognizing the scenery, or action as a scenery, an action, is still experiencing ...passive and active are still views. Even though one's mind is passive, it is still acting in the passivity of the moment. It is still functioning.

I'm talking about dropping the function altogether

 

Even the floating leaf is active. It is a leaf...or in other words just a form of the mind. It is still a form, thus it is active.

One may sit still in body and mind. But even the slightest notion of there being a stillness recognized is active. We may see things just moving without a hindrance. But our seeing and acknowledging there is a seeing is the hindrance.

 

In terms of being in the experiencing mind, your words are good methods to put down attached discriminative views up to a point. It is still useful if pointing directly to the experiencing mind. The mind will be of the expressions of active and passive until there is no mind that is active or passive.

 

You and I are talking of "different" expressions of the same mind

 

Peace and Blessings Brother.

 

Lin

Edited October 26, 2007 by 林愛偉

[seadog]

This is exactly why I surf.The force of a large breaking wave compels one into now.Nothing else exsists only now.If your mind hesitates,you will suffer,if your mind predicts an outcome you will suffer,On a large wave of consquence which one could extend to as a metaphor for life you have to be fully present.If for any reason you are not totally committed to taking the drop and holding your line,you are going to suffer.The two worst things you can do is panic and tense up,you must remain calm and present while a moutain of water breaks behind you.The energy or chi if you prefer of the breaking wave is can be felt with the whole body.The joy of the ride.The power of the breaking wave continues within you and is passed on to others who enter your field of energy,believe me.Unreal is watching someone surf from the cliff edge.Real is flying down the face.

[Taomeow]

In a dream, everything is also "now." It might be a nice experience to feel as though your experience is "now," but not a good criterion to tell what's real from what's an illusion. I used to windsurf years ago; now I will occasionally have a dream where I'm windsurfing "now." While the dream is going on I can't tell it's not the real "now." (Unless I've been trained to be able to tell, in a dream, that it's a dream.)

 

Moreover. You wake up "now," your heart is pounding, you're drenched in sweat, you're shaking with deep overwhelming emotion (fear? compassion? despair? the thrill of adventure?) -- and you don't know what it is because you had an experience in a dream (not "now," but while you were sleeping!) and now your mind knows not what it was all about, can't remember the dream -- while your body does, and lives in "back then" still, your heart is still pounding like crazy from a "back then" dream, not from sitting in your bed awake and safe "now." Your blood pressure is high, you can measure it with a machine if you like to confirm that your blood is stuck in "back then" and behaves accordingly even if your mind is already in the "now." The blood knows better. There is no "now."

 

The best criterion I know of for telling real experiences from symbolic ones is not based on their subjective immediacy, intensity, or confirmation of their reality by peer review. No. It is one's ability to trace the continuity of an experience to its source and systemically (body too, not just the mind) get to the place where you felt what you're feeling "now" for the very first time. As for the techniques, it's a separate issue, before exploring the techniques one would have to believe that the past and the present are a unity, not of unreal-real but of real-unreal. Your past is real; accepting that is the prerequisite for mastering the difference between real and unreal in the present. So these techniques would be wasted on anyone who thinks of anything their mind, separately from the body, doesn't remember happening as an irrelevance. To the body, as well as to the subtle spirits, it's not an irrelevance, not an illusion, and not even the past. It's current reality. "Back then" is "now" and "always."

 

The world, however, is overwhelmingly inhabited by people whose whole life's story is about disowning their own developmental history, their own past. Both ontogenically and philogenically. For someone invested like this, nothing real is really available no matter how immediate, intense, sanctimonial, or peer-reviewed and accepted as "reality" it might be.

[Smile]

Isn't the wisdom accumulated through spiritual cultivation and meritorious deeds all one needs to see through reality and illusion?

[beancurdturtle]

You and I are talking of "different" expressions of the same mind

So I gathered.

 

Approaching the same point from different perspectives.

Our perception of the point will resolve into different expressions.

 

As long as we are both approaching a worthy point, it's all happy pancakes.

 

Peace,

[林愛偉]

So I gathered.

 

Approaching the same point from different perspectives.

Our perception of the point will resolve into different expressions.

 

As long as we are both approaching a worthy point, it's all happy pancakes.

 

Peace,

 

 

so it is

[lockpaw]

Your past is real; accepting that is the prerequisite for mastering the difference between real and unreal in the present. So these techniques would be wasted on anyone who thinks of anything their mind, separately from the body, doesn't remember happening as an irrelevance. .

 

The past is real? Ha ha! Where is it? Show me the past!

[freeform]

.

Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[rain]

there are many realities

 

physical

spatial

temporal

subjective

objective

virtual

sychronized

simulated

 

based on cause and effect, dependant origination..

impermanence versus emptinesss..

manifistation of karma...

illusion, vision of the senses..

conceptless being..

interconnectedness...

 

the Dalai Lama has said

"Reality is devoid of any intrinsic identity that can be captured by anyone single proposition, that is what the Buddha ment by "voidness".

 

the best way to give room for something new is to get rid of something old.

du kunlun or any other qigong that releases brainwashed patterns.

sit and forget.

change a habit and watch what happens, or on the contrary be patiently consequent....(smoke til you puke)

 

[Taomeow]

The past is real? Ha ha! Where is it? Show me the past!

 

You can read, right?

 

Is it because you learned to read just now? or because your past (which, let me point out real quick, is not a "thing" but a "process") contains learning how to read, among other things?

 

If your past in which you learned how to read wasn't real, you would still be unable to read at any which given "now" moment.

 

Only with the past that contains the process of shaping you into someone who can read can you get the kind of "now" where you can read.

 

What if I write something in a language you didn't learn in your past? Ty uveren, chto ty smozhesh' pryamo seichas eto ponyat'?

 

You're reading the above sentence "right now," right? -- but it doesn't work, because this "now" when you're reading it is merely a function of your real past, the past in which you never learned this language. No way around it... if it isn't real in your past, it can't be real in your "now."

 

That's because, as taoist (not buddhist, not hindu, not new age -- but taoist) classics put it, "the way of tao is motion and the pattern of this motion is return." Meaning there's only return: tao-in-motion doesn't move in any other way, and tao-in-stillness is called Return with a capital R, and there's nothing else out there, just tao-in-motion returning to tao-in-stillness (actually, it goes both ways but it's still "return," not a "brand new start.") For tao, there is no "now." Just "back then" and "back again" and "always" and "forever" -- in cycles of repeated "have always been there have always done that" processes with no "creator," and therefore no beginning and no end, and most certainly no "real now" opposing any "unreal past." It's all one snake.

Edited October 30, 2007 by Taomeow

[freeform]

Ty uveren, chto ty smozhesh' pryamo seichas eto ponyat'?

 

You're reading the above sentence "right now," right? -- but it doesn't work, because this "now" when you're reading it is merely a function of your real past, the past in which you never learned this language. No way around it... if it isn't real in your past, it can't be real in your "now."

 

Ya konechno uveren chto on ne ponemayet, but he still has the language in him...

 

I go for 'in the now' stuff - both past and present and future contained in the now... I mean there is a part of me that indeed differentiates past and present and future - both the upper dan tien mind and the middle dan tien heart... although the middle experiences time in a really different kind of way (maybe cyclic is a good description) - the mind ofcourse experiences time in a very binary way - but the belly seems to contain the whole thing both time and no time and everything else.

 

The linguistic stuff I posted earlier is kind of a way to break the mind out of its habitual illusion of control and get it down into the heart - the heart has a bigger bandwidth to truth than the mind - and the belly has unlimited bandwidth...

[Taomeow]

Ya konechno uveren chto on ne ponemayet, but he still has the language in him...

 

I go for 'in the now' stuff - both past and present and future contained in the now... I mean there is a part of me that indeed differentiates past and present and future - both the upper dan tien mind and the middle dan tien heart... although the middle experiences time in a really different kind of way (maybe cyclic is a good description) - the mind ofcourse experiences time in a very binary way - but the belly seems to contain the whole thing both time and no time and everything else.

 

The linguistic stuff I posted earlier is kind of a way to break the mind out of its habitual illusion of control and get it down into the heart - the heart has a bigger bandwidth to truth than the mind - and the belly has unlimited bandwidth...

 

'tis true. In fact, it doesn't even matter what to call the whole eternal time thing -- "now" or "the past" or "the future" (eternal time is just like eternal tao in this respect: whatever name one might call it is not the eternal name)--

names aside, it's still a unity, it's all of it at once but also all of it step by step, and the steps go both ways at all times simultaneously, back, forward, nowhere, everywhere and everyWHEN. As one of my TCM books put it, it's easy to grasp how a seed expands into a tree, but to understand jing (the closest thing to "time" in its behavior, and more readily available for direct perception... just like water is the closest thing to qi in its behavior, and if no one teaches how to understand qi by empirically studying the behavior of water, it means the biggest secret of them all is out in the open free for the taking! ) -- where was I? -- oh, OK... in order to understand jing, the closest thing to "time" available to a mere mortal's perceptions, one needs to grasp how a tree contracts into a seed. And that's where "the power of now" as commonly understood by quite a few live-in-the-present sloganeers is very likely to fail. It is impossible to grasp if "now" is severed from "before now" and "after now."

[Todd]

'tis true. In fact, it doesn't even matter what to call the whole eternal time thing -- "now" or "the past" or "the future" (eternal time is just like eternal tao in this respect: whatever name one might call it is not the eternal name)--

names aside, it's still a unity, it's all of it at once but also all of it step by step, and the steps go both ways at all times simultaneously, back, forward, nowhere, everywhere and everyWHEN. As one of my TCM books put it, it's easy to grasp how a seed expands into a tree, but to understand jing (the closest thing to "time" in its behavior, and more readily available for direct perception... just like water is the closest thing to qi in its behavior, and if no one teaches how to understand qi by empirically studying the behavior of water, it means the biggest secret of them all is out in the open free for the taking! ) -- where was I? -- oh, OK... in order to understand jing, the closest thing to "time" available to a mere mortal's perceptions, one needs to grasp how a tree contracts into a seed. And that's where "the power of now" as commonly understood by quite a few live-in-the-present sloganeers is very likely to fail. It is impossible to grasp if "now" is severed from "before now" and "after now."

 

I'm going to try to deconstruct this a little bit. My mind is interested in this topic.

 

Its good to know that we no longer have to argue about eternal time. Past, future, now... Whatever. I haven't really heard the future pointer, however. Though when I try it out, it seems to work. Truth is the future. It kind've settles down the struggle. It works by settling the searching mind... it gives it an answer that it can't do much with, except to sense what was there before it started searching for answers, as it was searching for answers, and after it heard this answer.

 

Of course, if we are sloganeers, none of those pointers do any good. Hence the first few lines of Daodejing. The key seems to be a willingness to explore what these pointers open us up into (or down into as the case may be). If the power of now pointers don't do it for you, fine. Past works just as dandily. Future too, it seems. I guess we could make a whole philosophy upon the recognition of truth in the future. Something about being pulled along, unending change, inherent incompleteness of experience as limited beings. Acceptance of this incompleteness becoming acceptance of reality, which allows true enjoyment, and for once, genuine humanness. Something like "Partial means whole..." That Laozi guy always seems to have something up his sleeve, does he?

 

I wonder why it never caught on. Perhaps its something to do with how quickly it extinguishes hope. At least with the power of now stuff we can notice how now always seems to be changing (though thats not the now that is being pointed to really... maybe... I don't know... I've never read The Power of Now.) and so we can convince ourselves that it might transform for the better, if only we can recognize the now enough.

 

Now how does the past approach work?

 

There is nothing that is not included in the past, including this moment and the future. It forces us to recognize a bigger One than most people will just by peering into "the now". It breaks us out of our identity as autonomous individuals. We are forced to acknowledge our ancestors, and well, umm everything, which is way bigger than we can even imagine, though we can have a lot of fun trying. What I personally don't much like about this approach is that most people interact with their past as a series of emotionally charged events. Non emotionally charged events don't stick out in the memory so much. Also, most people don't look at the past as something that can be changed. This adds up to most people looking at the past in a very static, conflicted way.

 

Alright, maybe I'm being a little closed minded about this. I'll take the approach that now is actually a manifestation of the past, which is truth. Truth is in the past, but it is accessible now. That is actually pretty interesting. It has richness to it, that isn't necessarily immediately present with the now pointers. With the now pointers, there is a really common inclination to try and hold onto what is revealed in the now, since it can seem so ephemeral. With the past pointer its more about how much we are willing to explore (though it does have the downside of being connected to effort, which is just unsustainable for lazy people like me... I like my effort to be as effortless as possible... Maybe the past is your area of effortless effort? Or are you just teaching us a nice lesson?)

 

Well anyway, thanks for the lesson. I might be playing with the past from time to time. Though something tells me that it all resolves away from any of these words, as it always does.

 

BTW Qi and water... Is a lesson forthcoming on this? I'm imagining steam and liquid and ice. This seems to be a matter of physiology. Why is it the biggest secret of all, if you don't mind my asking? I am interested in your view.

 

Also Jing and trees and seeds. My mind goes a few places with this. I don't really see that big of a distinction between a seed becoming a tree and a tree becoming a seed. They are both mysterious to me on an ultimate level. There are many frames that one might take to explain the processes involved. There are western scientific ones. Probably several taoist ones. Are you pointing to a frame? Or is this something to do with movement back in time (it doesn't seem to be what was implied, but just asking)? There is the idea of passing influence down generations... a thread of life, vibrating, playing a song... however subtle or not, concentrated or burst upon the world. Once more, your view would be appreciated.

[seadog]

The truest purest most returning moments occur when our direct being is in danger .This can be the fleeting moments before a car crash,a physical encounter with someone else i.e. a fight.suddenly falling from a height,No doubt all of us has had the incredible awareness and altered state of time these intense enounters ellicit.The beauty of these moments I believe is we behave spontaneously,are movements and actions have a purity and truthfullness unencumbered by rational duality.Past present and future are fused together,welded into instaneous now.Often when one is close to death or indeed dead all of ones life flashes in an instant,the tyrany of time is extinguished.Dreams also deliver us now.There is only the dream.Where is our yesterday,its the shadow,the fall from great heights,the touch of a unknown lover.Where is our past?,its the deepth of the cold blue sea,the miracle of light,the song of a one blue planet.The countless lives and extinctions rolling back to forever have led us here.now.

Please to forgive the ravings of a mad man