how soon before the US in same state as Greece?

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

VTDT,  That is like saying karma is fiction or gravity is fiction etc...

 

All conceptual ideologies are fiction. POINT BLANK.

 

you can create any amount of factual representations of this fictional IDEATION, but it is NOT FACT.

 

 

Quit polluting your mind and the minds of the planet with this diseased rubbish!!!

[Dainin]

Shouldn't this thread be in "Off Topic?"

[zerostao]

Shouldn't this thread be in "Off Topic?"

i thought so too at the first post. 

 

i thought too that perhaps the wall street swindle of 2008 has had as much to do with greece's financial state as anything.

apech points out that the greek crisis probably began in 2001 when they joined the euro. that too.

these 2 events more than anything i think have led to where greece is now. they probably thought joining the euro , the strength in numbers, so to speak, would provide some type of safety net,,which for sure did not happen. 

so the greek tragedy fatal flaw i think, is the greeks trusted their euro partners to absorb any member states woes particular to any event , such as the 2008 wall street swindle of countless trillions,,sucked up out of the world's economy directly trickled up to the upper elite.  interesting i think as well, how instead of the euro community rallying around a wounded member, instead the choice was to ostracize the fallen member. instead of helping heal the wounded, instead, offer only more of the same medicine that actually caused the illness in the first place. doesnt make sense. 

and is interesting i think as well if we consider nato and the thought of collected safety net, due to the strength in numbers idea, if any one single member is attacked , all the other member states will defend and protect the wounded fallen one.

well now, the idea sounds all fine but the reality seems to be that in fact, if a nation finds the going tough in a financial crisis--they could very well be kicked to the curb.. so, i doubt if any member state, if it is a smaller poorer one,is actually attacked that nato would respond.. much of the world is built like a house of cards...

[Brian]

Surely you don't suggest that the symbolism of the fascis turns out to be hollow when the house of cards starts to collapse?

[3bob]

Well and since a lot of members participated here in the general forum, what the heck why not let the string also run its course here since there can be exceptions to the rules...  besides there are spiritual aspects to consider that go hand in hand with these money issues and effects that they have on people!

Edited July 11, 2015 by 3bob

[zerostao]

Well and since a lot of members participated here in the general forum, what the heck why not let the string also run its course here since there can be exceptions to the rules...  besides there are spiritual aspects to consider that go hand in hand with these money issues and effects that they have on people!

i'm cool with a thread wherever it is, i freely roam the forum boundaries, excepting the female section, i never ventured there even when it was possible to do so. 

@brian, not suggesting, just observing, and perhaps letting my thought on it be seen for feedback, it isnt even an opinion, but i think the world at large is now starting to see the real effects of the 2008 event that has been propped up artificially by the banks, we all cannot continue to live on credit, or can we?? excuse me it isnt called credit, but rather monetary accommodation edit lol monetary accommodation for the wealthy countries and loans for the not so well off,,kinda rigged from my view, which is no surprise

Edited July 11, 2015 by zerostao

[gendao]

Well, since the CRA from 1977 worked so well at causing the massive housing bust in 2008 and plunging this country into even far deeper debt...the Looney Boomer Feds are doubling-down and pushing it even further now!

This week, the Obama Administration unveiled a plan that would encourage cities around the country to track the racial makeup of their communities and increase the amount of affordable housing and home-financing programs that would help diversify racially-segregated neighborhoods. Decades after unchecked racial steering and lending discrimination made it hard for minority families to establish roots in white neighborhoods, black real estate agents say de facto segregation persists because of economic inequality. The agents like the idea of combating modern segregation through homeownership, but question whether integration can happen by simply asking city officials to pay more attention to it.

“To me, that sounds good on paper, but the reality of it is income,” said Nunnally, who pointed to the black-white wealth gap as the culprit for segregation in Baltimore and the surrounding suburban communities. “How can [neighborhood integration] come to fruition if the individuals don’t have the income to sustain the mortgage payment? People say the lending practices have loosened, but they really haven’t.”

The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development on Wednesday announced it will require U.S. municipalities to keep record of their housing patterns to identify racial bias. Every few years, cities and towns will make a public report of the results and, ideally, show a reduction in racial segregation. HUD officials say the policy is not meant to punish segregated cities. But the housing pattern data could eventually be tied to billions in federal funding that helps cities meet their obligations under the Fair Housing Act, a law passed during the civil rights era that banned the practice of housing discrimination against minorities.

HUD isn't leaving the diversity of American communities up to minority real estate professionals, though some experts say these agents can play an important role.

Adams said the government would have to practice reverse discrimination – offering better financing and mortgage programs specially made for blacks – if they want to deal with de facto segregation. “I’ve never encountered blatant racism from majority-white communities. As long as [blacks] qualify and can afford the mortgage, I have no issues whatsoever.”

IOW, banks must now lower lending standards EVEN MORE to poor black, brown or other (non-East/South Asian) minorities with bad credit - while racially-discriminating against White and East/South Asian homebuyers with better credit/income.

Vive more diversity & equality!

Edited July 13, 2015 by gendao

[Spotless]

We are not on the same track as Greece. But we are on a track to see pitchforks if we don't do something about this income disparity.

 

Oddly it has not dawned on many blue collars that the enemy is not socialism (and I am advocating for nothing so don't take issue with this in my regard) and it is not immigration problems. It is not robots - it is not outsourcing.

Edited July 13, 2015 by Spotless

[johndoe2012]

The Greek economic problems didn't start with the euro, they always have had a weak economy.

 

Might be related to their relatively young democracy, it wasn't so long ago it was a dictatorship, same as Portugal, Spain, Brazil etc.

 

Personally I can see how the world functions better using Western standards for states with low debt etc but the Western obsession with work as seen in the debates around the "lazy Greeks" is obnoxious and pathetic.

 

There is more to the world than numbers and money.

[Karl]

The economic fallacies run deep in this thread :-)

 

Will the U.S. End up like Greece ?

 

Its down to creditor confidence and leverage. Greece is a tiny economy locked into a currency which it has no power over. It has become reliant on cheap money loans which its government has squandered in order to ensure election victories. When the credit crunch came and the world went into recession Greece was left high and dry like a dying fish on a Mediterranean beach. It had made no attempt during the times of plenty to either engage in free market activities, reducing the state, public spending and corruption and neither had it made any attempt to balance its budget through collection of taxes. It did nothing to help itself and it has no bargaining power with its creditors bar some poor attempts at blackmail. The Germans and the bankers took it to the cleaners. They made the sort of offer you often see in films which gets given to indebted gamblers. It was concrete shoe time.

 

 

 

The U.S. Is a very different kettle of fish. The U.S. Defaulted in 1971 and couldn't pay its bills. Then it almost unilaterally ended the gold standard- or what shadow remained of the gold standard. It has a massive economy and can collect tax. It also has the dollar hegemony and enormous military power. It's very difficult for any other country to get the bite on the U.S.

 

 

 

 

However, in both these cases the answer is based on certain assumptions about the original question. If we begin to look at individuals within these two countries there may well be similarities. Just because the U.S. is unlikely to end up as Greece, it does not mean it's people cannot end up like Greeks.

 

 

 

 

I noticed some talk of minimum wages. These are always advocated by those who have no understanding of their impact. If the wage is set at or below the productive norm for the job to which the wage is applied then there will be no effect at all. If it is raised above that level then like any over priced good, the labour will be left on the shelf. The higher the wage the more unemployment there will be.

 

 

 

 

 

Minimum wages are advocated by four groups, politicians, unions, corporations and the general public. Politicians get notional extra votes, unions protect their members from competition and increase subs/membership, corporations who can afford to pay the higher wage can ensure that new market competition will struggle to remain competitive in the short term. The general public think it's a nice idea, it seems fair and looks like it will help the economy- but that's because they don't have economic knowledge and are easy meat for the other three groups who will get them to support it.

 

 

 

 

If minimum wage was so great then why not set it at $100 or $1000 dollars an hour ? And why is it that the government omit certain groups like the disabled from it ? It's because the Government already understand the economics, they just rely on everyone else being dumb enough to swallow the bull. They know full well that setting it above market rate causes unemployment and they also know that the disabled would not find employment at the higher wage rates and so that group is exempted.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Karl

[Spotless]

Karl - your drip about minimum wage is the going argument but it simply has never panned out that way.

Obviously crazy extreme scenarios would not work but most of what you pointed out is the opposite of reality regarding minimum wage insofar as how it has always played out in the USA.

 

Do you remember Ford - when he doubled the minimum wage from $2.50 to $5.00?

Edited July 15, 2015 by Spotless

[Brian]

Karl - your drip about minimum wage is the going argument but it simply has never panned out that way.

Obviously crazy extreme scenarios would not work but most of what you pointed out is the opposite of reality regarding minimum wage insofar as how it has always played out in the USA.

 

Do you remember Ford - when he doubled the minimum wage from $2.50 to $5.00?

Borrowed from Post# 91:

OK, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and provide a little of the research for your consideration:

https://mitpress.mit.edu/index.php?q=books/minimum-wages

http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/44995-MinimumWage.pdf

https://www.epionline.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Oakland_MW_Report1.pdf

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/06/02/seattle_raising_its_minimum_wage_to_15_it_s_history_in_the_making.html

http://epionline.org/studies/EPI_SanFrancisco_Studyv4.pdf

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/05/business/15-wage-in-fast-food-stirs-debate-on-effects.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1

http://borderlands-books.blogspot.com/2015/02/borderlands-books-to-close-in-march.html

http://epionline.org/studies/EPI_TheImpactof980FederalMinimumWage.pdf

https://www.minimumwage.com/2014/06/new-survey-seattles-15-misstep

https://www.epionline.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/120228_EPI_CanRaisingtheMinWageReducePovertyandHardship.pdf

http://www.socsci.uci.edu/~dneumark/Neumark%20et%20al%20MW%20evaluation%20May%202013%20ILRR%20final%20rev.pdf

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/~jsabia/docs/Sabia_Burkhauser_Hansen_ILLR2012.pdf

http://www.socsci.uci.edu/~dneumark/min_wage_review.pdf

https://www.epionline.org/wp-content/studies/macpherson_06-2002.pdf

https://www.epionline.org/studies/r132

http://www.epionline.org/study/r131

http://www.epionline.org/study/r129

http://www.epionline.org/study/r128

http://www.people.vcu.edu/~lrazzolini/GR2010.pdf

http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/p60-245.pdf

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324616604578302153328738108

https://www.minimumwage.com/2015/05/raise-the-wage-sponsors-dont-pay-any-wage-to-their-interns/

http://www.cjr.org/the_audit/the_minimum_wage_and_the_danis.php?page=all&print=true

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/newsroom/img/posts/Sabia_Burkhauser_SEJ_Jan10.pdf

http://www.facesof15.com

http://thf_media.s3.amazonaws.com/2013/pdf/ib3866.pdf

Not sure whether sources like the US Census Bureau, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, MIT, Virginia Commonwealth University, University of California - Irvine, or the Congressional Budget Office have any credibility in this thread but thought I'd throw this out there...

[gendao]

The Greek economic problems didn't start with the euro, they always have had a weak economy.

I don't think they did back when they built the Acropolis...and up until they took a left turn with the PASOK party in 1981, their economy was actually constantly growing every year, despite constant civil unrest:

From 1929 to 1980 the Greek economy’s average growth rate was 5.2 percent. In that time period Greece experienced dictatorships, occupation, civil war, and a military junta.

So, the evidence is clear if you follow the breadcrumbs back of what changed...

Edited July 15, 2015 by gendao

[ralis]

Borrowed from Post# 91:

Not sure whether sources like the US Census Bureau, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, MIT, Virginia Commonwealth University, University of California - Irvine, or the Congressional Budget Office have any credibility in this thread but thought I'd throw this out there...

 

Haven't had much time to review your references, but there are several sites listed that were created by lobbyists from the restaurant industry. I will ignore those.

[Karl]

Karl - your drip about minimum wage is the going argument but it simply has never panned out that way.

Obviously crazy extreme scenarios would not work but most of what you pointed out is the opposite of reality regarding minimum wage insofar as how it has always played out in the USA.

Do you remember Ford - when he doubled the minimum wage from $2.50 to $5.00?

"The Secretary, to the extent necessary to prevent curtailment of opportunities for employment, shall by regulation or order provide for the employment, under special certificates, of individuals ... whose earning or productive capacity is impaired by age, physical or mental deficiency, or injury, at wages which are lower than the minimum wage."

 

 

 

This is article 14c there are approx 300,000 people on these permits working for sub minimum wages. The Government recognises that those who's productive capacity falls below that of the instituted wages would suffer. There you are. Black and White.

 

 

 

There's a reason why a guy doesn't pump your gas and clean the windscreen these days, why there are cash point machines instead of bank tellers, why telephone receptionists have vanished and been replaced by touch tone selection and why self checkouts have appeared in supermarkets. There are lots of jobs that have vanished as a result of wage costs becoming uncompetitive. Once that happens then low skilled jobs become targets for automation.

 

 

 

Henry Ford was forced to up his wages because of competition. Those he had trained in his assembly line were taking their new found skills to other manufacturers and raising wages was the only way he could keep the workers. There are an awful lot of carefully manicured stories which when looked into reveal that things were not quite how they seemed.

 

Ford was delighted to violate "the custom of paying a man the smallest amount he would take." And yet "[t]here was . . . no charity in any way involved. . . . The payment of five dollars a day for an eight-hour day was one of the finest cost-cutting moves we ever made." Ford was so pleased that in 1922, when Model T sales began to top a million a year, he raised his minimum wage to six dollars a day. Meanwhile, he cut the price to about $300. With all of their manufactured steel, vulcanized rubber, and processed plate glass, Model Ts were selling at about 25 cents a pound—perhaps the best bargain in the industrialized world.

 

Ford did it for the best reason in the world, by paying more he cut the costs of training, recruitment and absenteeism. No one wanted to lose their jobs and a steady stream of applicants ensured the necessary incentive to make sure an employee stayed employed. One thing that isn't often discussed is that part of this wage was by bonus. Ford was a eugenecist and would check that his employees lived in a way he approved of.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Karl

[Geof Nanto]

@ Karl

 

The question of minimum wage is obviously a complex issue because it includes many value judgements pertaining to how a society views itself. For instance, it involves questions of human dignity as well as moral questions arising from stark differences in wealth. And from a strictly economic perspective, can our consumption based economies function efficiently if a significant percentage of the population have little purchasing power? 

 

For reference, here is a list of minimum wages worldwide......

 

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country

 

(BTW. I'm interested to know your purpose in leaving such large spaces between your paragraphs. For me, it creates a disjointed feel to your posts.)

Edited July 15, 2015 by Yueya

[Geof Nanto]

I have no strong opinion on the issue of minimum wage, especially not for as complex and diverse a country as the US. However, I suspect the relative equality of income distribution that has prevailed in Western countries for much of the last century is a thing of the past. For most of recorded history there has been enormous wealth disparities between rich and poor in all countries. And whilst we’ve lived well in the West over the last century or so, that certainly hasn’t been the case for most of the world’s population living in India, China, Indonesia, Mexico etc. As the world’s economy becomes increasingly globalised, along with increases in the material standard of living in many developing economies,  there’s bound to be downward pressure on wages in Western countries.

 

From Wikipedia, here are some statistics of annual minimum wage in international dollars, (a hypothetical unit of currency calculated based on the purchasing power parity of household final consumption expenditure.) For calculating the annual wage, the lowest general minimum wage was used.

 

Australia   $22194

Belgium    $20408

Brazil        $ 5980

Canada     $16586

China        $ 4197

France      $19905

Germany  $21442

Hong Kong$11595

India          $ 2296

Japan        $12426

Mexico       $ 2256

Russia       $ 4125

Taiwan      $16001

UK             $16810

US             $15080

Edited July 16, 2015 by Yueya

[Karl]

@ Karl

 

The question of minimum wage is obviously a complex issue because it includes many value judgements pertaining to how a society views itself. For instance, it involves questions of human dignity as well as moral questions arising from stark differences in wealth. And from a strictly economic perspective, can our consumption based economies function efficiently if a significant percentage of the population have little purchasing power? 

 

For reference, here is a list of minimum wages worldwide......

 

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country

 

(BTW. I'm interested to know your purpose in leaving such large spaces between your paragraphs. For me, it creates a disjointed feel to your posts.)

 

I can't get the forum to work properly. If I leave a couple of lines it bunches everything into one paragraph, if I add a space it adds 6. Not sure why.

 

Let's first imagine a world without government intervention.

 

We can take two men called Fred and Bob.

 

Fred is an excellent worker and very skilled. He catches 50 fish, farms 500 berries and bakes 20 cakes a day.

Bob isn't so skilled and is not very healthy. He catches 10 fish, farms 100 berries and bakes 5 cakes per day.

 

Now, Fred and Bob can trade freely. Do you think they can do business together positively ?

 

The answer to this question will surprise you. Not only can they trade together, but they can organise their overall production through trade and produce more between them than they could separately. This is termed the law of comparative advantage. It's one of those things that takes students a long time to grasp. It's counter intuitive, but the results are all around us. In free market capitalist countries where trade is not restricted by interventionism such as wage fixing, people thrive and grow wealthier by this mechanism. In countries where interventionism is strongest USSR/China/Venezuela the standard of living, health, lifespan decrease, whilst pollution and resource destruction increases.

 

What underlies economic science is objective knowledge. It's like Geometry. I don't need to measure every triangle in order to apply the theory. I don't need to think it's fair, or unfair that the hypotenuse of a right angled triangle is the sum of its sides and angles. These things are axiomatic rules. There is a lot of rot talked about economics and many economists have undermined the basic laws by producing complex mathematical models in an attempt to find their own fame, fortune and the favour of the state.

 

Going back to the example of Fred and Bob. The implementation of minimum wages are a barrier to production. They effectively cut bob off from participation in the production cycle. It tells Fred not to trade with Bob because Fred will be expected to give over a chunk of his production to Bob by force. If Fred has the freedom to choose who he trades with, then he will prefer to trade with someone with who he isn't forced to give to. Essentially this throws Bob on the scrap heap as no one wants to trade with him. What's more, the entire economic society suffers for this loss of Bobs contribution. In real life all the producers are forced to give over some part of their production in order to prevent Bob producing himself. That's a horrible thing to do to a man. That's what minimum wages do.

 

[Karl]

I have no strong opinion on the issue of minimum wage, especially not for as complex and diverse a country as the US. However, I suspect the relative equality of income distribution that has prevailed in Western countries for much of the last century is a thing of the past. For most of recorded history there has been enormous wealth disparities between rich and poor in all countries. And whilst we’ve lived well in the West over the last century or so, that certainly hasn’t been the case for most of the world’s population living in India, China, Indonesia, Mexico etc. As the world’s economy becomes increasingly globalised, along with increases in the material standard of living in many developing economies,  there’s bound to be downward pressure on wages in Western countries.

 

From Wikipedia, here are some statistics of annual minimum wage in international dollars, (a hypothetical unit of currency calculated based on the purchasing power parity of household final consumption expenditure.) For calculating the annual wage, the lowest general minimum wage was used.

 

Australia   $22194

Belgium    $20408

Brazil        $ 5980

Canada     $16586

China        $ 4197

France      $19905

Germany  $21442

Hong Kong$11595

India          $ 2296

Japan        $12426

Mexico       $ 2256

Russia       $ 4125

Taiwan      $16001

UK             $16810

US             $15080

 

You are conflating things because you are not factoring in the effects of state interventionism. You are also confusing wages with wealth. Wealth is only production. It is only what the money can buy that is important and not the wages themselves. Wages are just claims on production. They are oil in the machine. There will always be those who have entitlement to greater quantities of production than others. The important thing is the equal opportunity to produce and trade. Anything that suppresses equal opportunity or tries to force increased balance destroys production for the entire group and creates greater disparity than would otherwise be the case. In other words interventionism makes us ALL poorer and creates increased disparity between groups. It also consigns perfectly capable, but lower skilled workers to the scrap heap.

 

Interventionism is enacted by the state who hands out privileges and exemptions to those groups it favours. The mess this system makes results in greater interventionism to placate those who find themselves on the wrong end of those privileges. Everyone is trying to vote themselves a share of someone else's productive effort. It doesn't matter if these people are rich bankers, industrialists, union workers, small shop owners or the unemployed.

[MooNiNite]

Ihe US is only 18.2 trillion dollars in debt.

 

We got about 8 of that in just the past 6 years

[Spotless]

Brian: Try stats that take long term curves into account.

 

Also here's a Ted talk with some real life stats - none from lobbyists:

 

https://www.ted.com/talks/nick_hanauer_beware_fellow_plutocrats_the_pitchforks_are_coming

Edited July 16, 2015 by Spotless

[Brian]

Brian: Try stats that take long term curves into account.

 

Also here's a Ted talk with some real life stats - none from lobbyists:

 

https://www.ted.com/talks/nick_hanauer_beware_fellow_plutocrats_the_pitchforks_are_coming

I'm glad to see the TED folks decided to air this later talk he did. It seems a bit more substantial than the first one, which they chose not to.

 

The short-term impact is driving more people into unemployment, under-employment and/or sub-minimum-wage employment, and more people onto means-tested government assistance programs. The long-term impact is increased mechanization & automation, price-inflation to match wage-inflation, higher hurdle for small business viability, and the need to do it again in a few years.

 

Please take the time to read the studies I linked to -- at least the ones not associated with clearly biased organizations.

[thelerner]

 Let's first imagine a world without government intervention. We can take two men called Fred and Bob. Fred is an excellent worker and very skilled. He catches 50 fish, farms 500 berries and bakes 20 cakes a day. Bob isn't so skilled and is not very healthy. He catches 10 fish, farms 100 berries and bakes 5 cakes per day. Now, Fred and Bob can trade freely. Do you think they can do business together positively ? The answer to this question will surprise you. Not only can they trade together, but they can organise their overall production through trade and produce more between them than they could separately. This is termed the law of comparative advantage.

 

The implementation of minimum wages are a barrier to production. They effectively cut bob off from participation in the production cycle. It tells Fred not to trade with Bob because Fred will be expected to give over a chunk of his production to Bob by force. If Fred has the freedom to choose who he trades with, then he will prefer to trade with someone with who he isn't forced to give to. Essentially this throws Bob on the scrap heap as no one wants to trade with him. What's more, the entire economic society suffers for this loss of Bobs contribution. In real life all the producers are forced to give over some part of their production in order to prevent Bob producing himself. That's a horrible thing to do to a man. That's what minimum wages do.

In the real world, historically Fred can become so rich and powerful he buys the pond, bakery and farmland thus Bob's production is zero.  Fred can then put Bob to work, take all his production and pay him a minimalist wage.  Fred is very happy, Bob lives a relatively poor life and society is the worse for it. 

 

Aren't we seeing something like that going on in the U.S with wage stagnation?  The middle class getting poorer and wealthiest getting richer?   Thankfully the middle class is recovering from the 'jobless' recovery and wages are beginning to rise.  Its taken a long time and its devastated 10's of millions of lives. 

 

I think Capitalism has many benefits, but left unchecked can devolve into near feudalism.  Its the job of sound economic theory to run the numbers and find the 'sweet spots' that protect workers and employers.  To me, part of that sweet spot includes a minimum wage.  Society needs a safety net.   There is a problem with too much wealth inequality.  Eventually it leads to the system shattering. 

[Brian]

Brian: Try stats that take long term curves into account.

 

Also here's a Ted talk with some real life stats - none from lobbyists:

 

https://www.ted.com/talks/nick_hanauer_beware_fellow_plutocrats_the_pitchforks_are_coming

FWIW, I recommend this counterpoint to accompany Nick Hanauer's discourse:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2014/06/30/nick-hanauers-latest-near-insane-economic-plan/

[ralis]

FWIW, I recommend this counterpoint to accompany Nick Hanauer's discourse:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2014/06/30/nick-hanauers-latest-near-insane-economic-plan/

 

You can posit point counterpoint forever, but economies boil down to human need. 

 

I have had many extremely wealthy clients over the years and the vast majority could care less about you or I. I am not talking about wealth of a few paltry million, but 8 and 9 figures. These people have an incessant need to accumulate more without limit.