how soon before the US in same state as Greece?

[ralis]

Err no. Try again. Milton Friedman.......shudder and social Darwinism is really far off the mark. Darwin was a eugenicist and proto Fabian. He was also misquoted. Objectivism is just Rands version of Aristotlian logic and I'm not upset to be associated with logic. I haven't read any Kirk, Mundell etc which suggests it probably doesn't align with my thinking. Try Von Mises, Bastiat, Rothbard. Hitlers propaganda expert Goebbels said people naturally did not want to go to war, they had to be persuaded by a constant Fear induction and then brand any objectors as traitors. Nazi courts were full of war objectors who were summarily executed. The state education system is designed to destroy critical thinking and make obedient citizens for the meat grinder. People can be conned, it doesn't mean they would take that course of action as a free thinking preference.

 

Bought into and coerced to be more precise. Neoliberal/Libertarian are one in the same. Social Darwinism as in Herbert Spencers false suppositions regarding social groups and a so called 'survival of the fittest' as opposed to the evolution of the group.

 

Ayn Rand was neither logical or reasonable and to equate Aristotelian logic with so called Objectivism gives Ayn Rand credit where none can be reasonably found.

Edited July 16, 2015 by ralis

[Karl]

What did they expect to find?

What Milgram and other thought they would discover versus what they truly discovered

Milgram was certain that very few participants would actually carry out the orders of the experiment (to 450-volts). “So he was surprised when 26 of the 40 (65 percent) individuals who served as teachers in the initial experiment administered the full 450-volts to the presumably helpless learner” (Forsyth, 2010, p. 244). Only a few predicted that anyone would give a shock greater than 180-volts. A panel of psychiatrists, college students, and middle-class adults were asked by Milgram to make predictions about the results of the experiment. “Most people, including both experts and laypersons alike, were surprised by the level of obedience Milgram discovered in his research” (Forsyth, 2010, p. 247).

 

Right, but this is no surprise to me. If you keep fleas in a box they eventually stop jumping any higher than the box. At which point the box lid can be removed and the fleas won't escape. Children in school are taught through a Pavlovian based system which reduces reasoning skills. All this experiment proves is how successful the state education system has been in training it's people to be obedient. You have to know what is being measured, if you keep a man in a chair for a few years then it should come as no surprise that they can't immediately run a marathon. A test that proves that humans subject to abuses are affected by these abuses shouldn't come as a big shock to anyone.

[Karl]

Bought into and coerced to be more precise. Neoliberal/Libertarian are one in the same. Social Darwinism as in Herbert Spencers false suppositions regarding social groups and a so called 'survival of the fittest' as opposed to the evolution of the group.

Yes coerced.

 

Except it was never 'survival of the fittest'. It was the 'the most adaptable survive'. Subtly, but completely different. Survival of the fittest was a slogan for eugenicists. It suited the scientific state and encouraged rugged individualism and patriotism/nationalism. Adapting doesn't mean that of course. Humans adapted by cooperation.

 

Libertarian as a label was hijacked years ago. It's just a word without any clear connotations. In that sense I wouldn't argue that libertarian and Neo liberal are the same, probably neo conservative as well I don't really know.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Karl

[ralis]

Yes coerced.

 

Except it was never 'survival of the fittest'. It was the 'the most adaptable survive'. Subtly, but completely different. Survival of the fittest was a slogan for eugenicists. It suited the scientific state and encouraged rugged individualism and patriotism/nationalism. Adapting doesn't mean that of course. Humans adapted by cooperation.

 

Libertarian as a label was hijacked years ago. It's just a word without any clear connotations. In that sense I wouldn't argue that libertarian and Neo liberal are the same, probably neo conservative as well I don't really know.

 

The Nazi's used Herbert Spencer's work to justify a 'survival of the fittest' ideology. That is what I am referring to.

 

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Hitler_and_evolution

Edited July 16, 2015 by ralis

[Karl]

The Nazi's used Herbert Spencer's work to justify a 'survival of the fittest' ideology. That is what I am referring to.

 

Right, yes very true. Goebbels used Gustav Le Bon and Edward Bernays works on propaganda and crowd control. However the Prussian model was pre spencer and based around Platos ideals of the pyramid.

[gendao]

The Nazi's used Herbert Spencer's work to justify a 'survival of the fittest' ideology. That is what I am referring to.

 

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Hitler_and_evolution

Not at all. If Hitler truly believed in "survival of the fittest"...then he would have had no need to interfere whatsoever in the natural free market survival of the fittest and failure of the unfit. What he practiced instead was artificial (not natural) selection, just like his legacy of Affirmative Action & GMOs today.

Edited July 16, 2015 by gendao

[ralis]

Not at all. If Hitler truly believed in "survival of the fittest"...then he would have had no need to interfere whatsoever in the natural free market survival of the fittest and failure of the unfit. What he practiced instead was artificial (not natural) selection, just like his legacy of Affirmative Action & GMOs today.

 

If you are going to discuss this topic then posit something reasonable as opposed to invalid assumptions such as the above. I gave a reference, but your narrative will not stand critical analysis.

 

In what way are GMOs and affirmative action related to Hitler and his so called legacy?

Edited July 17, 2015 by ralis

[gendao]

In what way are GMOs and affirmative action related to Hitler and his so called legacy?

All of them represent artificial selection, not natural selection. Survival of the fittest is always determined by natural selection ONLY. The ones that survive were the fittest by definition - "fittest" is not predetermined and is unknown until that point.

 

The minute you start tampering with that free market competition, you've already tainted the results and subverted the Divine natural mechanism of quality control and evolution.

 

Simply put - MAN should not be the judge (as in all those examples), NATURE should!!!

Edited July 17, 2015 by gendao

[ralis]

All of them represent artificial selection, not natural selection. Survival of the fittest is always determined by natural selection ONLY. The ones that survive were the fittest by definition - "fittest" is not predetermined and is unknown until that point.

 

The minute you start tampering with that free market competition, you've already tainted the results and subverted the Divine natural mechanism of quality control and evolution.

 

Simply put - MAN should not be the judge (as in all those examples), NATURE should!!!

 

"Divine natural mechanism"? What is that supposed to mean? 

 

I am referring to the Third Reich's philosophy regarding 'Social Darwinism' and how that was viewed. I am not interested in lectures regarding natural selection. 

Edited July 17, 2015 by ralis

[Brian]

"Divine natural mechanism"? What is that supposed to mean?

 

I am referring to the Third Reich's philosophy regarding 'Social Darwinism' and how that was viewed. I am not interested in lectures regarding natural selection.

You mean those darlings of hardcore Progressive radicalism? I think those 1930s "intellectual elite" film reels are a hoot! What with the Progressive intelligentsia falling all over themselves to be the most supportive of that left-wing idol and all. Until it stopped being popular, that is...

[ralis]

You mean those darlings of hardcore Progressive radicalism? I think those 1930s "intellectual elite" film reels are a hoot! What with the Progressive intelligentsia falling all over themselves to be the most supportive of that left-wing idol and all. Until it stopped being popular, that is...

 

Exactly what are you talking about? Most of your posts leave out pertinent information. 

[CloudHands]

Right, but this is no surprise to me. If you keep fleas in a box they eventually stop jumping any higher than the box. At which point the box lid can be removed and the fleas won't escape. Children in school are taught through a Pavlovian based system which reduces reasoning skills. All this experiment proves is how successful the state education system has been in training it's people to be obedient. You have to know what is being measured, if you keep a man in a chair for a few years then it should come as no surprise that they can't immediately run a marathon. A test that proves that humans subject to abuses are affected by these abuses shouldn't come as a big shock to anyone.

 

Thus it has been shocking enough to be forbidden.

 

 

Aside that I would find most of your answer in a basic economy manual -> see the rules of the leaders that you please very well to recite. I understand it I don't buy it.

 

When talking about effects on people you don't seem very concerned. You have probably no idea of speculation on the prices of cereal implies in Senegal but it means something there.

 

And when it goes about why that system stays in place it became obvious it's because it nourishes it's own stupidity but you make no link.

 

I'm certainly not convinced by your kind of ideas.

 

Have a good day.

[Karl]

Thus it has been shocking enough to be forbidden.

 

 

Aside that I would find most of your answer in a basic economy manual -> see the rules of the leaders that you please very well to recite. I understand it I don't buy it.

 

When talking about effects on people you don't seem very concerned. You have probably no idea of speculation on the prices of cereal implies in Senegal but it means something there.

 

And when it goes about why that system stays in place it became obvious it's because it nourishes it's own stupidity but you make no link.

 

I'm certainly not convinced by your kind of ideas.

 

Have a good day.

 

Unfortunately most of that has been lost in translation.

I can't argue, because what you have written seems completely at odds with my post.

As I would class myself as anti-state and in complete disagreement with the political leaders.

I am very concerned with effects of the state, crony capitalism and state education.

If you mean 'market speculation' then without it the world would starve.

I don't understand 'nourishes its own stupidly' or 'the system stays in place'. What system are you talking about ?

[Karl]

The Nazi's used Herbert Spencer's work to justify a 'survival of the fittest' ideology. That is what I am referring to.

 

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Hitler_and_evolution

 

Oh I see what you did. Tried to link libertarian with Fascism through the work of one man.

 

I'm not, or wasn't familiar with Spencer. I also like to read a mans own words before taking a stance rather than acting to condemn someone because of populist opinion.

 

The U.S. Ideology is most certainly Neo-liberal, fascist/conservative, but that has nothing to do with libertarian philosophy anymore than Jesus ( nominally Christian) was a cause for the inquistion and witch burnings.

 

 

[CloudHands]

Unfortunately most of that has been lost in translation. I can't argue, because what you have written seems completely at odds with my post. As I would class myself as anti-state and in complete disagreement with the political leaders. I am very concerned with effects of the state, crony capitalism and state education. If you mean 'market speculation' then without it the world would starve. I don't understand 'nourishes its own stupidly' or 'the system stays in place'. What system are you talking about ?

 

I wasn't replying to your post. It was my way to say this discussion will have no end nor agreement. I wrote it very briefly before I went to work so sorry for my bad English.

 

I'm not telling that you are right or wrong, you seem to be intelligent and respectful. We have some radical differences in the foundation of our respective thinking process that are matter of conviction more than logic. Beside we don't agree on the effects of capitalism. Maybe you are just more optimistic about human nature than me, or I care more about global humanity dignity and equity. I don't have the time or the will and not even the ability to expose my complete opinion in English and more than everything else I think it doesn't really matter.

 

Thanks for sharing

[Karl]

I wasn't replying to your post. It was my way to say this discussion will have no end nor agreement. I wrote it very briefly before I went to work so sorry for my bad English.

 

I'm not telling that you are right or wrong, you seem to be intelligent and respectful. We have some radical differences in the foundation of our respective thinking process that are matter of conviction more than logic. Beside we don't agree on the effects of capitalism. Maybe you are just more optimistic about human nature than me, or I care more about global humanity dignity and equity. I don't have the time or the will and not even the ability to expose my complete opinion in English and more than everything else I think it doesn't really matter.

 

Thanks for sharing

 

No one can doubt free market capitalism and it is a matter of logic. I know humans have the capacity to reason. I also know it is an under developed capacity which has been deliberately and systematically suppressed since early times.

 

We are here on this forum because we wish to develop our spiritual side, but you should know that 'spiritual' is just another name for conscious awareness and our higher functions-reasoning- are those that separate man from animal. To be self realised-to become what one already is-must be accomplished through expanded higher functions on the face of consciousness. These higher function provide a datum or platform of truth. It's like a superhighway of perfect logic in which no false beliefs are possible. It underpins all of existence because it is part and parcel of existence. Everything is connected by it.

 

I am not simply just sure, or even very certain, I bathe in the waters of reality and it is one and the same with me. This you will, I think, struggle to understand. Try and imagine no egoic intention at all, pure knowledge to which a story has to be written. Like a well from which water is taken and then utilised for bathing, drinking, painting, cooking. This is hard to explain because words such as 'capitalism' are conceptual and abstract, they are capable of misunderstanding unlike the pure knowledge that underpins them. Just like freedom, or love are concepts combined with emotional response.

 

When you become established in the self, you will understand. It is not necessary at this time to try and disassemble a concept in order to arrive at the underlying truth. That is like breaking a pot to find the potter. Instead it should be our aim to find the truth in ourselves and thus arrive at the truth of everything else. It isn't possible to reverse engineer it. Do that first and then the rest may follow.

[thelerner]

No one can doubt free market capitalism and it is a matter of logic. I know humans have the capacity to reason. I also know it is an under developed capacity which has been deliberately and systematically suppressed since early times.

 

 This is hard to explain because words such as 'capitalism' are conceptual and abstract, they are capable of misunderstanding unlike the pure knowledge that underpins them. Just like freedom, or love are concepts combined with emotional response. When you become established in the self, you will understand. It is not necessary at this time to try and disassemble a concept in order to arrive at the underlying truth. That is like breaking a pot to find the potter. Instead it should be our aim to find the truth in ourselves and thus arrive at the truth of everything else. It isn't possible to reverse engineer it. Do that first and then the rest may follow.

Turn an economic idea into a near religious entity and you're going to start losing perspective.   It becomes an -ism and that leads to fundamentalism, then we got trouble.  It becomes all good, and while Capitalism has many strong points, its got faults too and instead of curing them they're brushed under the social rug. 

[Karl]

Turn an economic idea into a near religious entity and you're going to start losing perspective.   It becomes an -ism and that leads to fundamentalism, then we got trouble.  It becomes all good, and while Capitalism has many strong points, its got faults too and instead of curing them they're brushed under the social rug. 

 

It's nothing to do with a religious entity. Capitalism ( and that is a Marxist slur as there is no such thing as capital-ism unlike Marxism which has no basis for its ideology) is just the ordinary way in which humans operate. There is no mystery to it. In the purest sense it means not to consume everything we produce. It is commonly known as saving for a rainy day, however, these savings allow the producer to produce innovative ways to increase that production. A fisherman saves enough to make a net and can now fish more efficiently. It can also be lent out. The fisherman agreeing to feed the berry picker whilst he constructs a berry picking device and increases berry production. He agrees to pay the fisherman a percentage of the berries as payment for the berry picker deferring that consumption. Everybody benefits.

 

There are no faults with pure capitalism. What we have today is crony capitalism where the state protects businesses and occupations from competition which deprives the consumer of the value of his earnings. This should not be called capitalism at all, it is a fraudulent hybrid. It is monopoly by state. Today when politicians talk about 'free markets' and 'capitalism' they are lying. We have a centrally managed economy predicated on a monopolised monetary system. Today there are no markets. The state did away with them and created front run casinos powered by cheap money. It has pushed money from the bottom to the top and created great differences between the very rich (0.01%) and the rest. It has created zombie businesses and banks which should have gone bust and who's continued bailouts are dragging the real producers down. Capital is no longer being created. Savings are cursed and capital is being destroyed.

 

If we go back to that simple example. If we do not save, we cannot produce. That's where we are headed.

 

 

 

 

[thelerner]

It's nothing to do with a religious entity. ... Everybody benefits.

There are no faults with pure capitalism.

 

Ookay. as long as it's  p u r e.  

Edited July 19, 2015 by thelerner

[zerostao]

to the op again,

i think friday's 50 billion gain by google, yup upped their score fiddy bill in one day--

so i dont reckon we can compare anything usa to the greek situation.

i feel bad for the greeks and i think they got the short end of the stick becoz they trusted europa,

and i wonder why europa did not invest into greece creating jobs, so they could pay their bills??

never the less, i have noticed the actions, and realize that maybe america doesnt do everything better than other countries, 

there is a thread ongoing abt that, but what other countries do worse than america,,

has me glad to be sitting here where i am.

[Spotless]

I love it. Let's not look at actual data and evaluate how things really work. Instead, let's speculate about how we think things ought to work and then collectively decide which ideas we think seem more attractive.Knock yourselves out.

 

 

I've pretty much always been an employer and would agree with the Lerner.

 

It is easy to take a position either way:

 

http://journalistsresource.org/studies/economics/inequality/the-effects-of-raising-the-minimum-wage

 

I'm not to much into noise lately.

[Karl]

Ookay. as long as it's p u r e.

If it isn't, then it isn't capitalism, it's something else. We need to change the argument to engage with the new paradigm.

 

So, in a centrally run, state controlled economy is the minimum wage a good idea ?

 

At that point I leave the discussion. That question is for those that don't believe in capitalism. Mainly communists, fascists, dictators, the ignorant and crooks.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Karl

[Brian]

I've pretty much always been an employer and would agree with the Lerner. It is easy to take a position either way: http://journalistsresource.org/studies/economics/inequality/the-effects-of-raising-the-minimum-wage I'm not to much into noise lately.

I'm intrigued. Do you pay your folks minimum wage or does your business primarily serve minimum-wage & sub-minimum-wage folks?

[zerostao]

Greece is not being asked to swallow many bitter pills in exchange for a realistic plan of economic revival, they are asked to suffer so that others in the European Union can go on dreaming their dream undisturbed.

BY SLAVOJ ZIZEK PUBLISHED 

20 JULY, 2015 - 07:00

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/slavoj-i-ek-greece-courage-hopelessness

[Karl]

 

http://ericpetersautos.com/2015/08/04/the-war-on-cars-parked-and-otherwise/

 

 

In what ways is the U.S. As bad, if not worse than Greece.