Are the waters eternal or created? Infinite Dualism

[noonespecial]

In the ancient traditions of the near east and africa, the waters were seen as an eternal non-created principle, one of two ring pass nots, the other of course being the organizing principle, represented by figures such as Marduk, the former by figures such as Tiamat - in the western tradtion, this eteranl dualism (true Gnosticism imho) has been replaced by Luria's Tzimtzum wherein the chaos is a result of Ayn Sofs withdrawl from itself and not necessarily an eternal principle - hence monotheism is upheld (however tentative it may be in the case of the occult).

 

This is admitedly a form of mental mastrubation either way because it does not readily effect us or our practice as such, yet it always seems this destructive element is waiting for an opportunity to return to chaos, to destroy, this seems to be the case both in the macro and micro. And ironically many systems from the Golden Dawn to Islam to Fundamentlist Christianity make more sense when seen from this primal viewpoint of two co-eternal principles, perhaps hostile energies co-exisiting, and that it is the hostile interplay between the two, both sensual and violent, that results in this here which we are all experiencing. What do you guys and gals make of this?

[Marblehead]

Well, I would say you have two major concepts going here:

 

All life on Earth is water based

and

The cycles of creation and destruction

 

The peoples of old knew the importance of water to life.  They didn't need scientists to tell them - it is an observable process.  And water is a perfect example of the processes of creation and destruction.  Water doesn't care but we do.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Marblehead

[noonespecial]

Sorry for any confusion, I mean waters in a broader sense. More akin to a prime chaotic material than manifest 'earthly' waters.

[Marblehead]

Sorry for any confusion, I mean waters in a broader sense. More akin to a prime chaotic material than manifest 'earthly' waters.

No problem.  I'm easily confused.

 

Well, last I heard is that hydrogen was the first element formed after the Big Bang.  Now all that is needed is some oxygen and the mating of the two.  So yeah, I would think that water is pretty primal throughout the universe.

[Michael Sternbach]

I would read Waters to mean the Soul of the World (Anima Mundi) or Mercury, underlying Creation - thus not created themselves but eternal.

[Marblehead]

I would read Waters to mean the Soul of the World (Anima Mundi) or Mercury, underlying Creation - thus not created themselves but eternal.

Well, we know I can't go there in a discussion so I will back out unless there is occasion for me to speak.

[noonespecial]

Ok, nevermind the word 'waters' lol - think chaos and order.

[noonespecial]

From the Grimoire of Tiamat -

 

The motif of Chaos preceding creation is found in mythologies worldwide. It is usually described as Darkness or Night, the Void, the Gaping Abyss, or Ocean of Black Waters. In the Greek lore this is Tartarus, in Scandinavian myths it is Ginnungagap, Egyptian cosmogony includes the primeval ocean of Nun, and in the Sumerian tradition we have the primordial watery abyss of Apsu and Tiamat. The Womb of Chaos is the birthplace and the abode of dragons, giants, monsters, demons, and primal gods. It is the tohu-bohu - the formless void described in Genesis.

 

The black waters of the First Mother are like the cosmic ocean of Nun. She is called the Deep, the Void, the Womb, and the Abyss. Gerald Massey associates the waters of Nun with Tepht, the abyss, the source of all life, and equates them with Tiamat, the Great Mother. Tepht is the well from whence the waters issue, the dwelling underground, where the Dragon gave birth to her brood of monsters on the earth. It is the “lair of the dragon,” “the hole of the snake.” It is also the mythical birthplace of life and vegetation, water to drink, food to eat and air to breathe, the womb of the Cosmic Mother.

 

As the watery Chaos, Tiamat is identified with the Hebrew concept of Tehom, which means “the deep.” There is also a slight resemblance between these two accounts of Creation, as they both include the motif of dividing the waters under the firmament from the waters above. In the Babylonian myth, Marduk splits the body of Tiamat and from her flesh, he fashions the firmament which keeps her upper waters in place, forming the heavenly ocean above the covering of heaven. It is not clear what happens to the lower waters, but a part of them is believed to form Hubur, the river of the underworld. The epic also mentions the so-called Ti-amat e-li-ti and Ti-amat sap-li-ti, the Upper Tiamat and the Lower Tiamat, which are equivalents of the waters above and under the firmament.

 

===

 

There are some who would argue, that the very nature of high magic, is to increase the influx of light into matter, thus keeping the primordial waters of chaos at bay.

Edited July 6, 2015 by noonespecial

[noonespecial]

The theme is further developed in Zoroastrianism -

 

From Wiki -

 

Other scholars assert that since Zoroastrianism's divinity covers both being and mind as immanent entities, it is better described as a belief in an immanent self-creating universe with consciousness as its special attribute, thereby putting Zoroastranism in the pantheistic fold where it can be easily traced to its shared origin with Indian Brahmanism.^[22][23] In any case, Ahura Mazda's creation—evident is widely agreed as asha, truth and order—is the antithesis of chaos, which is evident as druj, falsehood and disorder. The resulting conflict involves the entire universe, including humanity, which has an active role to play in the conflict.^[21]

 

----

 

Sources vary as to the origin of the Druj, some are closely akin to Lurianic Kabalah, wherein the chaos principle, that is Ahriman, is the result of creation, earlier accounts point towards the chaos as an eternal principle co-existing with the organizing, male principle, akin to other near eastern creation accounts.

 

----

 

ENuma ELish online

 

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/enuma.htm

[Marblehead]

 lol - think chaos and order.

I can do that.  I have known both in my life during different periods of time.

 

PS  Are you a discordian?

Edited July 6, 2015 by Marblehead

[noonespecial]

Well, we know I can't go there in a discussion so I will back out unless there is occasion for me to speak.

 

For the record, I have no answers. lol.

[noonespecial]

 I have known both in my life during different periods of time.

 

Amen brother.

[Nungali]

I would read Waters to mean the Soul of the World (Anima Mundi) or Mercury, underlying Creation - thus not created themselves but eternal.

 

I thought he meant 'hyle'     

 

The undifferentiated 'stuff' that existed within Chaos  ( the limitless )  ... as 'the waters'  ... then the waters 'above' were divided  from those below .   (Which always amuses me ;   how was there an above or below before the division? ) ... with a ......    'divider'     -  vault, space, expanse, firmament, canopy, horizon, .... 

 

http://biblehub.com/genesis/1-7.htm

 

" And divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; the lower part of it, the atmosphere above, which are the clouds full of water, from whence rain descends upon the earth; and which divided between them and those that were left on the earth, and so under it, not yet gathered into one place; as it now does between the clouds of heaven and the waters of the sea. Though Mr. Gregory (a) is of opinion, that an abyss of waters above the most supreme orb is here meant; or a great deep between the heavens and the heaven of heavens, where, as in storehouses, the depth is laid up; and God has his treasures of snow, hail, and rain, and from whence he brought out the waters which drowned the world at the universal deluge. Others suppose the waters above to be the crystalline heaven, which for its clearness resembles water; and which Milton  calls the "crystalline ocean", 

 

And it was so: the firmament was accordingly made, and answered this purpose, to divide the waters below it from those above it; or "it was firm" ©, stable and durable; and so it has continued. 

 

(z) ------and God made The firmament, expanse of liquid, pure, Transparent, elemental air, diffused In circuit to the uttermost convex Of this great round.------ Milton, Paradise Lost.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Nungali

[noonespecial]

PS  Are you a discordian?

 

No.

[Michael Sternbach]

I thought he meant 'hyle'

Proton hyle = prima materia = Mercury

Edited July 6, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[noonespecial]

I thought he meant 'hyle'     

 

The undifferentiated 'stuff' that existed within Chaos  ( the limitless )  ... as 'the waters'  ... then the waters 'above' were divided  from those below .   (Which always amuses me ;   how was there an above or below before the division? ) ... with a ......    'divider'     -  vault, space, expanse, firmament, canopy, horizon, ....

 

Yes, the hyle...it's all amusing, I came by this earlier, from the Zohar -  "In the beginning Ein Sof emanated ten sefirot, which are of it's essence, united with it. It and they are entirely one. There is no change or division in the emanator that would justify saying it is divided into parts in these various sefirot. Division and change do not apply to it, only to the external sefirot."

 

 

edit- and yet we have three mother letters 'in' Ein Sof which presuppose creation, likewise we have theories of quantum fluctations in a mathematical void that presuppose the big bang.

 

AE Waite - "They have compared the "prima materia" to everything, to male and female, to the hermaphroditic monster, to heaven and earth, to body and spirit, chaos, microcosm, and the confused mass; it contains in itself all colors and potentially all metals; there is nothing more wonderful in the world, for it begets itself, conceives itself, and gives birth to itself."

Edited July 6, 2015 by noonespecial

[noonespecial]

From Rubaphilos, The Hermes Paradigm, Book Two:

 

pg.40-41

 

"Hermetic philosophy tells us that behind physical reality exists a condition that alchemists call the universal spirit. This spirit is the most remote condition of matter from physical matter itself. It is considered a form of Fire by Hermeticists, but it is cold, dark, completely non-physical and omnipresent...

 

Then something stirs this chaos (1) into motion. Exactly how this happens is not known, but a number of ancient cultures imagined that God agitated the chaos by a verbal command. This sound, or vibration, causes light (2) to be generated in the chaos...as the agitation was increased that cold, dark light became heat and then visible Fire."

 

great book btw - highly recommended.

[Nungali]

The theme is further developed in Zoroastrianism -

 

From Wiki -

 

Other scholars assert that since Zoroastrianism's divinity covers both being and mind as immanent entities, it is better described as a belief in an immanent self-creating universe with consciousness as its special attribute, thereby putting Zoroastranism in the pantheistic fold where it can be easily traced to its shared origin with Indian Brahmanism.^[22][23] In any case, Ahura Mazda's creation—evident is widely agreed as asha, truth and order—is the antithesis of chaos, which is evident as druj, falsehood and disorder. The resulting conflict involves the entire universe, including humanity, which has an active role to play in the conflict.^[21]

 

----

 

Sources vary as to the origin of the Druj, some are closely akin to Lurianic Kabalah, wherein the chaos principle, that is Ahriman, is the result of creation, earlier accounts point towards the chaos as an eternal principle co-existing with the organizing, male principle, akin to other near eastern creation accounts.

 

----

 

ENuma ELish online

 

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/enuma.htm

 

 

IMO  , cosmologically order /chaos are of a different origin and concept to  falsehood and disorder in the human psyche and socio-culture. 

 

If that is what the original question / post was about.  One is a 'conflict' with the forces of physics, the other a development of social mores and taboos.  The involvement of humanity IMO is restricted to the development ( to follow the  Zoroastrian analogy) of the 'Mainyus' -   Spenta Mainyu and Angra Mainyu ... " Good or bad mind'. 

 

A Spenta Mainyu can be developed by practice and attitude , it is brilliant, constructive and beneficent and is embodied in a 'Ratush' or 'righteous leader' of men.  But the gloomy, negative and destructive Angra Mainyu but is embodied in Ahriman, an incarnation of the Devil. 

 

Which seems a strange polarity. 

 

IMO  neither are a pre-existent state ..... they are developed via circulation in a feedback system ( both in individuals and in societies) .... it seems , for some,  to come from beyond one's conditioning  and developing of Spenta Mainyu  in life, as they are just 'bad seeds' and where would this come from  if not a pre-existent 'cause' . 

 

Mainyu is 'spirit' and spirit can mean 'one's essential differentiation '  or one's unique individuality.   But even if one takes reincarnation and any 'sticky karmna' out of the equation, we  still have IMO 'genetic carry over. 

 

You cant expect to cure a vicious guard dog in one session, it will take time. The same with sociopathic 'genetic' traits. It seems some cant be cured by a good upbringing and practising the qualities of Spenta Mainyu to develop Vohu Mano *  ( not in one life time)  so another external cause is sought or blamed.

 

 

*  Good mind or mental outlook 

 

• Persona: Grace, generosity of spirit, good manners.
• Traits: Wisdom in thought, measured speech, and beneficent action.
• Possessing six virtues: Reason, self-control, modesty, trustworthiness, gratitude, and hope.
• Without six vices: Malice, anger, arrogance, deceitfulness, greed, and despair

 

(I wish there was more of these teachings .... Today, out of the twenty one books of the Sassanian era Avesta, only one complete book and fragments of others survive after the Arabs, Mongols and Turks invaded and burnt them       ) 

[Michael Sternbach]

Well, in most basic terms:

 

Mercury = Entropy = Chaos

Sulfur = Ectropy = Structure

 

On every (internal or external) level.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Nungali]

From Rubaphilos, The Hermes Paradigm, Book Two:

 

pg.40-41

 

"Hermetic philosophy tells us that behind physical reality exists a condition that alchemists call the universal spirit. This spirit is the most remote condition of matter from physical matter itself. It is considered a form of Fire by Hermeticists, but it is cold, dark, completely non-physical and omnipresent...

 

Then something stirs this chaos (1) into motion. Exactly how this happens is not known, but a number of ancient cultures imagined that God agitated the chaos by a verbal command. This sound, or vibration, causes light (2) to be generated in the chaos...as the agitation was increased that cold, dark light became heat and then visible Fire."

 

great book btw - highly recommended.

 

 

I like the idea of describing 'tendencies'  that things have before  they come into existence   

 

There comes a stage where we eventually get to ...  'just dont know'  ... it doesnt bother me, but many have come up with all sorts of verbiage to say that in another way   

 

No matter how 'far back' one goes ... one can always ask the 'next further back ' question.

[Nungali]

..... I've really gotta go and eat breakfast  (I said that hours ago ) ! !

 

[noonespecial]

I like the idea of describing 'tendencies'  that things have before  they come into existence  

 

There comes a stage where we eventually get to ...  'just dont know'  ... it doesnt bother me, but many have come up with all sorts of verbiage to say that in another way  

 

No matter how 'far back' one goes ... one can always ask the 'next further back ' question.

 

In retrosepct, I could have made the thread much simpler lol. And it does come down to the 'next further back' question, or the infamous 'who created god' question - through practice I no longer care about that issue, being just is as far as I am concerened, we are here and that's it. But what has been dancing through my mind, is why does everything 'have to be a unity' - new agers, occultists, religionists all posit this as if it is a necessary truth, return to the one, achad, we are one, etc, etc....but why, things could just as easily be two, two at the ring pass not, not one, not zero. One of the first things, my small silent voice told me repeatedly, was push up and out, there is nothing to 'return' to (in regards to the Path of Return of GOlden Dawn derived occultism I would suppsoe).

[Geof Nanto]

But what has been dancing through my mind, is why does everything 'have to be a unity' - new agers, occultists, religionists all posit this as if it is a necessary truth, return to the one, achad, we are one, etc, etc....

 

Yes, exactly. I think it's a product of one sided masculine consciousness.

Within it there is an image, clear and rigid: the unity and power of the erect penis. 

Could also be it's a craving for certainty by blocking out half of reality rather than integrating it. 

 

 One of the first things, my small silent voice told me repeatedly, was push up and out, there is nothing to 'return' to (in regards to the Path of Return of GOlden Dawn derived occultism I would suppsoe).

 

Nothing to return to? The whole question is a complex one that's perplexed thinkers since the beginnings of recorded thought. There's been volumes written on the subject; my small insights are unlikely to clear anything up. As far as I'm concerned, from my Daoist perspective, "One Yin and one Yang, this is the Dao." So everything that exists in all realms is a dynamic dance of yin and yang. It's a reality we cannot escape from. Like you, I "push up and out" into the world of ten thousand things, but I also look to return to the root. Once again, the innate duality of life.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Yueya

[noonespecial]

Yes, exactly. I think it's a product of one sided masculine consciousness.

Within it there is an image: the unity and power of the erect penis. 

Could be it's a craving for certainty by blocking out half of reality rather than integrating it. 

 

I never thought of that, perhaps my maleness blinded me to that aspect, 1 is a phallic symbol, but then there is no 1 without a 2. It's also interesting that while not necesarily a feminine principle, this primordial womb, this chaos took on the feminine role, Tiamat needs to be tamed, conquered, divided by Marduk, etc.

[Nungali]

IMO the polarity needs to fluctuate  , one ]side' needs to contain a bit of the other.  The 'receptive womb' takes in and gives out, the  act of male generation takes in and then gives out  ( the 'germ- spirit- baby ' from the waterhole and into the womb/ mother  - actually the waterhole takes in the 'germ-baby] and gives it out to the man.

 

Wallenganda  ( sky snake / Milky Way ) , a mother, spits out water / venom/ semen?  down onto Ungud ; male, earth snake creator, he takes it in and goes int o earth womb and gives out dreaming of life, rock paintings take in life patterns / forms / and give them out to country ... and so on. 

 

Like Sephiroth. 

 

I see the 'one' as the middle path between the polarity.  We exist in duality so there is no 'real unity' perceived by us; that is beyond our 'abyss'. But we can experience 'the one'  as the middle principle or apex of multiple forms of the basic triune energy patterns evident everywhere.

 

I agree about the 'new age'  ' we are all one, we all own everything, we are one being ' etc ... in my experience I have heard it most when trying to collect an entry fee to the festivals we used to put on  

Edited July 7, 2015 by Nungali