Are the waters eternal or created? Infinite Dualism

[noonespecial]

Interestingly enough, I pulled the Trump 15 <Devil> this morning.

[Geof Nanto]

Interestingly enough, I pulled the Trump 15 <Devil> this morning.

 

Meaning for you?

 

 

In The Red Book, Carl Jung relates an encounter within his psyche between himself and Satan. He tells Satan "Listen, something has just happened to us; we have united the opposites. Among other things, we have bonded you with God"..... "This unification is an important principle. We have put a stop to never ending quarreling, to finally free our hands for real life." Needless to say Satan finds this to be foolish nonsense, and comments it smells of monism. However Jung counters "You're mistaken. Matters are not as rational with us as they seem to be. We have no single correct truth either. Rather a most remarkable and strange fact has occurred; after the opposites had been united, quite unexpectedly and incomprehensibly nothing further happened. Everything remained in place, peaceful and yet completely motionless, and life turned into a complete standstill." 

Edited July 7, 2015 by Yueya

[Aithrobates]

First, about Tiamat. She's in a dyad with Apsû. He is fresh water and she is salt water. Salt water as it burns when you try to drink it is considered fiery in many mythological contexts. So we are talking about a paradoxical Androgynous Fire-Water, a "level" beyond dualities (and our concepts about dualities) Dharmakaya if you like, or the mysterious pre-Heaven Qian-Kun unity.

 

Is had nothing to do with non-order or darkness. It is dark and messy only to the Mind that can not make sense of it because it is beyond it. In fact "Chaos" is not even chaotic. In Hediods it's some kind of gap, but without a border because nothing else exists. Nothing to do with a messy dark soup of non-order.

 

As for the two Minds in Zoroaster... Sadly, this is a classic exemple of how hard the Gathas are hard to traduce. In the Yasht 30 - the text about the choice about Truth and Falsehood -  it is said that one is better than the other, no reference to our beloved opposition of good and evil.

 

If you look at the first line of Yasht 30.3:

 

aṯ tā mainyū paouruyēyā  yə̄mā xvafnā asrvātəm

 

Things get worse as the two Minds are not only Twins (yə̄mā) but also - and you'll never find that in a traduction - they are Sleeps (xvafnā) !

 

So what the fuck ? Xvafna closest equivalent is sanskrit svapna (sleep, dream), then greek hypnos (sleep), and latin somnus (sleep, but somnum is dream). So whe have two kind of sleep or two kind of dream ?

 

Don't scratch you head too much on that as it gets even worse. Because yə̄mā in this dialect of avestic, or yima in the other, are just old good Yama in sanskrit, that is "twin", but also the God of Death. So the two Minds are Twins and Sleep and Death. What the fucking fuck !?

 

But in greek mythology Hypnos (Sleep) is the twin of Thanatos (Death)...

 

So I don't really know where this leads us. But it seems that we touch to something too old for our modern Mind to make sens of.  Like the pre-creation state it is too paradoxical to understand.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Aithrobates

[noonespecial]

First, about Tiamat. She's in a dyad with Apsû. He is fresh water and she is salt water. Salt water as it burns when you try to drink it is considered fiery in many mythological contexts. So we are talking about a paradoxical Androgynous Fire-Water, a "level" beyond dualities (and our concepts about dualities) Dharmakaya if you like, or the mysterious pre-Heaven Qian-Kun unity.

 

Is had nothing to do with non-order or darkness. It is dark and messy only to the Mind that can not make sense of it because it is beyond it. In fact "Chaos" is not even chaotic. In Hediods it's some kind of gap, but without a border because nothing else exists. Nothing to do with a messy dark soup of non-order.

 

As for the two Minds in Zoroaster... Sadly, this is a classic exemple of how hard the Gathas are hard to traduce. In the Yasht 30 - the text about the choice about Truth and Falsehood -  it is said that one is better than the other, no reference to our beloved opposition of good and evil.

 

If you look at the first line of Yasht 30.3:

 

aṯ tā mainyū paouruyēyā  yə̄mā xvafnā asrvātəm

 

Things get worse as the two Minds are not only Twins (yə̄mā) but also - and you'll never find that in a traduction - they are Sleeps (xvafnā) !

 

So what the fuck ? Xvafna closest equivalent is sanskrit svapna (sleep, dream), then greek hypnos (sleep), and latin somnus (sleep, but somnum is dream). So whe have two kind of sleep or two kind of dream ?

 

Don't scratch you head too much on that as it gets even worse. Because yə̄mā in this dialect of avestic, or yima in the other, are just old good Yama in sanskrit, that is "twin", but also the God of Death. So the two Minds are Twins and Sleep and Death. What the fucking fuck !?

 

But in greek mythology Hypnos (Sleep) is the twin of Thanatos (Death)...

 

So I don't really know where this leads us. But it seems that we touch to something too old for our modern Mind to make sens of.  Like the pre-creation state it is too paradoxical to understand.

 

This is such a good post, the Sleeps, the fuck indeed...thank you for contriubuting. The two aspects of the primal water, or the fiery waters brings to mind the nature of the Secret Fire, sulphur, salt. Much food for thought.

[noonespecial]

Meaning for you?

 

PFC from Highlights of the Tarot writes, "The ancients declared that the devil was God inverted. This refers to the conception of matter as opposed to Spirit, though the truth is that they are aspects of ONE THING."  More or less exactly what we are discussing here, the dual aspect of the astral light - likewise the salt water and fresh water of Tiamat.

 

I think the GD version of the Lovers (1+5=6) is related as well. One of my fav cards.

 

[Nungali]

First, about Tiamat. She's in a dyad with Apsû. He is fresh water and she is salt water. Salt water as it burns when you try to drink it is considered fiery in many mythological contexts. So we are talking about a paradoxical Androgynous Fire-Water, a "level" beyond dualities (and our concepts about dualities) Dharmakaya if you like, or the mysterious pre-Heaven Qian-Kun unity.

 

Is had nothing to do with non-order or darkness. It is dark and messy only to the Mind that can not make sense of it because it is beyond it. In fact "Chaos" is not even chaotic. In Hediods it's some kind of gap, but without a border because nothing else exists. Nothing to do with a messy dark soup of non-order.

 

As for the two Minds in Zoroaster... Sadly, this is a classic exemple of how hard the Gathas are hard to traduce. In the Yasht 30 - the text about the choice about Truth and Falsehood -  it is said that one is better than the other, no reference to our beloved opposition of good and evil.

 

If you look at the first line of Yasht 30.3:

 

aṯ tā mainyū paouruyēyā  yə̄mā xvafnā asrvātəm

 

Things get worse as the two Minds are not only Twins (yə̄mā) but also - and you'll never find that in a traduction - they are Sleeps (xvafnā) !

 

So what the fuck ? Xvafna closest equivalent is sanskrit svapna (sleep, dream), then greek hypnos (sleep), and latin somnus (sleep, but somnum is dream). So whe have two kind of sleep or two kind of dream ?

 

Don't scratch you head too much on that as it gets even worse. Because yə̄mā in this dialect of avestic, or yima in the other, are just old good Yama in sanskrit, that is "twin", but also the God of Death. So the two Minds are Twins and Sleep and Death. What the fucking fuck !?

 

But in greek mythology Hypnos (Sleep) is the twin of Thanatos (Death)...

 

So I don't really know where this leads us. But it seems that we touch to something too old for our modern Mind to make sens of.  Like the pre-creation state it is too paradoxical to understand.

 

Some of the above I link together very differently than you do .... but this thread isnt about  'Zoroastrian philosophy'  ... I might be able to discuss it elsewhere , but one point : 

 

You have never heard slee and death equated before in many cultures ? Sleep is the 'little death' ... as is orgasm also known ... ;' the little death ' . It's not too hard to fathom . 

Edited July 8, 2015 by Nungali

[noonespecial]

Ah yes, the constant thrust of infinite mind into the infinite waters, forever and ever, sustaining creation. In QBL it's interesting to note, that once the practioner shifts {edit - not fully, see Halevi's work} his being to a ruach level, his head is now tiferet and tiferet is yesod, the foundation of righteousness, the genitals, all the way up through da'at, into keter.

Edited July 8, 2015 by noonespecial

[Nungali]

Ohhh ... I can tell you how the salt water and the fresh water got divided .... loong before Those pesky newcomer Babylonians ! 

 

 

You see, back in the dreamtime  ... no, not that dream time, the other dream     .....  Wallaby, goanna and  bush cockroach decided to have a ceremony, they sent bush cockroach off to find some ochre , he came back, mixed it up and made some nice paint. "Now paint me" said Wallaby and bush cockroach did. Did a good job too ! 

 

The wallaby painted lizard and he did a good job too.  They stood there admiring each other. But cockroach  said "Hey ! What about me? No one has painted me!"

 

So lizard , "Ohhh all right then "  But he didnt do it very good .  And cockroach (as they say nowadays ) got pissed off.

 

Actually he he got so pissed off that he started pissing  .....   and pissing ...  and pissing    and he pissed here and he pissed there and he pissed everywhere !  

 

" HEY!  What are you doing ? "said goanna - and he pissed on him. "Stop that!"  said wallaby and he pissed on her too !

 

And then he started pissing in their goanna's water  "Hey ! Dont do that! You will turn the water salty! "  

 

Wallaby grabbed her paperbark dilly bag full  of water and stuck it her pouch

 

But he kept pissing in  and then he pissed all over the camp site and the bushes and the tress and then he pissed in the creek and all the water ... and it all turned salty .

 

"Now look what you have done, "  said wallaby, "You turned all the water salty.... except for  my bit !"

 

and she hopped away with it.

 

Thats why, there is still a lot of fresh water around, but most of water now is salty

 

{ Acknowledgements to  the Gamalanga  Milingimbi } 

[noonespecial]

As the bruhs would say, "you salty bruh?"

[Aithrobates]

 but this thread isnt about  'Zoroastrian philosophy'  ...

 

Yeah, you're right let's not fork the discussion. There will be plenty of opportunities to talk about that on dedicated topics.

 

 

You have never heard slee and death equated before in many cultures ? Sleep is the 'little death' ... as is orgasm also known ... ;' the little death ' . It's not too hard to fathom . 

 

The question is not why saying that Sleep and Death are similar. That is so obvious that I did not even bother mentioning that. I think everyone sees it The question is why Sleep and Death are associated with the opposition of Truth and Lie ?

 

The Greek parallel is close. Xvfana is the strict equivalent of Hypnos, two form of a common IE word, Yema and Thanatos both mean "Death", so "hypnos thanatos" = "yema xvafna". It's a good clue. We have some material about Hypnos and Thanatos, including cosmologic considerations that cross the path of the Avesta, Bundahishn, Upanishads, Ayurveda, Norse and Celtic mythologies, Babylonian datas too, etc...

 

When I say that I do not know where it leads us, I just mean that I'm not sure yet, and won't submit a conclusion too early. I have pages of notes on that single gatha. So I was just sharing the pointers I'm working with, as I'm in no position to affirm this or that... yet

 

But as it as to do with cosmology we're not to far for cosmogenesis and the Primeval Waters...

Edited July 8, 2015 by Aithrobates

[FraterUFA]

In the ancient traditions of the near east and africa, the waters were seen as an eternal non-created principle, one of two ring pass nots, the other of course being the organizing principle, represented by figures such as Marduk, the former by figures such as Tiamat - in the western tradtion, this eteranl dualism (true Gnosticism imho) has been replaced by Luria's Tzimtzum wherein the chaos is a result of Ayn Sofs withdrawl from itself and not necessarily an eternal principle - hence monotheism is upheld (however tentative it may be in the case of the occult).

 

The dualistic concept is found not merely in the traditions of the near East and Africa. In fact, we find it all over the world, transcending time and culture. That fact alone suggests that we are dealing with a fundamental truth about the human experience.

 

This is admitedly a form of mental mastrubation either way because it does not readily effect us or our practice as such,

 

Not quite. "As above, so below". What exists in the macrocosm exists in the microcosm. Not some of the time, all of the time. So while we may be justified in not concerning ourselves too much with vague cosmological theories in the beginning, any true inner exploration is going to rub up against this concept pretty quickly. 

 

Dualism describes a core aspect of what it means to be human. 

 

yet it always seems this destructive element is waiting for an opportunity to return to chaos, to destroy, this seems to be the case both in the macro and micro. And ironically many systems from the Golden Dawn to Islam to Fundamentlist Christianity make more sense when seen from this primal viewpoint of two co-eternal principles, perhaps hostile energies co-exisiting, and that it is the hostile interplay between the two, both sensual and violent, that results in this here which we are all experiencing. What do you guys and gals make of this?

 

I think you understate your case here. It is not that seeing the viewpoint of dualism sheds more light on spiritual experience, but that all spiritual experience is fundamentally concerned with explaining dualism itself. 

 

We live in a binary world. Here I am typing this to you and there you are reading it. You do not perceive yourself to be me. Your life as you currently perceive it began with a birth which took place in a specific time and place. You perceive it as heading towards its end at what will be a specific time and place. You perceive pain and pleasure, loss and gain, youth and old age, male and female. You perceive yourself as a finite being... for what purpose?

 

I would add that true understanding of dualism is the beginning of the spiritual path... what some might call "liberation".

 

UFA

[FraterUFA]

Yes, exactly. I think it's a product of one sided masculine consciousness.

Within it there is an image, clear and rigid: the unity and power of the erect penis. 

Could also be it's a craving for certainty by blocking out half of reality rather than integrating it. 

 

Unity is not a product of binary consciousness. Binary consciousness is a product of unity.

 

The product of one-sided masculine (or one-sided feminine) is dysfunction.

 

UFA

[Marblehead]

The product of one-sided masculine (or one-sided feminine) is dysfunction.

Great statement.  Very Taoist.

[FraterUFA]

Great statement.  Very Taoist.

 

I couldn't tell you anything about Taoism. I am an alchemist.

 

UFA

[noonespecial]

Polarity. Equilibrium, the interplay between the two. UFA's post brought this to mind, "When the Sefirot are in their normal state, arrayed in three columns, they are in a state of equilibrium. But when the Sefirot of the central column are moved to the right and left, so as to divide the Sefirot in two arrays, a powerful tension is produced. When they are in such a mode, powerful spiritual  forces can be directed and channeled." - Aryeh Kaplan, Sefer Yetzirah Pg.33

[Michael Sternbach]

Polarity. Equilibrium, the interplay between the two. UFA's post brought this to mind, "When the Sefirot are in their normal state, arrayed in three columns, they are in a state of equilibrium. But when the Sefirot of the central column are moved to the right and left, so as to divide the Sefirot in two arrays, a powerful tension is produced. When they are in such a mode, powerful spiritual  forces can be directed and channeled." - Aryeh Kaplan, Sefer Yetzirah Pg.33

 

That makes sense. Without polarity, there is no current flowing.

[Geof Nanto]

Unity is not a product of binary consciousness. Binary consciousness is a product of unity.

 

The product of one-sided masculine (or one-sided feminine) is dysfunction.

 

UFA

 

You have misinterpreted my words here. My point was exactly "The product of one-sided masculine (or one-sided feminine) is dysfunction."  However, I'd say consciousness cannot exist without polarity. The "One" you and others speak of with confidence as if it's something knowable, to my mind, is so far beyond and outside the human it's best left as an incomprehensible mystery. 

Edited July 8, 2015 by Yueya

[FraterUFA]

Polarity. Equilibrium, the interplay between the two. UFA's post brought this to mind, "When the Sefirot are in their normal state, arrayed in three columns, they are in a state of equilibrium. But when the Sefirot of the central column are moved to the right and left, so as to divide the Sefirot in two arrays, a powerful tension is produced. When they are in such a mode, powerful spiritual  forces can be directed and channeled." - Aryeh Kaplan, Sefer Yetzirah Pg.33

 

Mixing Judaic Kabbalah and Hermetic Qabalah is asking for trouble. The two are not compatible and this is a good example of why IMO.

 

In the Hermetic Qabalah, the Sephiroth cannot ever truly be out of equilibrium. What is perceived a state of disharmony is in actuality, useful and intentional. So referring back to that one-sided male perspective, one might hear a statement such as "Hod and Netzach are unbalanced". While the concept of a Ruach inbalance is indeed a valid and useful one, to state that Hod and Netzach are out of balance is to state that the universe is imperfect in some way... as if it is possible in any way to mar the harmony of the Supreme Being. It is a subtle distinction and one which leads the Judaic Kabbalists to misjudge the nature of reality.

 

The Hermetic Qabalah allows for imbalance. In fact, it demands it below the supernals. Imbalance creates motion and binary consciousness. It is an integral part of the tree, built into it. The Sephiroth don't "move left or right" in the Hermetic philosophy. Concepts like this which have slowly accumulated within the Judaic Kabbalah (and which remain unchallenged) are why I hold that the Hermetic Qabalah is a vastly more effective spiritual system, having been stripped of religious legalism and dogma.

 

UFA

[FraterUFA]

The "One" you and others speak of with confidence as if it's something knowable, to my mind, is so far beyond and outside the human it's best left as an incomprehensible mystery. 

 

Then you very much will not care for my views on Homo Illuminatus.

 

UFA

[noonespecial]

Mixing Judaic Kabbalah and Hermetic Qabalah is asking for trouble. The two are not compatible and this is a good example of why IMO.

 

In the Hermetic Qabalah, the Sephiroth cannot ever truly be out of equilibrium. What is perceived a state of disharmony is in actuality, useful and intentional. So referring back to that one-sided male perspective, one might hear a statement such as "Hod and Netzach are unbalanced". While the concept of a Ruach inbalance is indeed a valid and useful one, to state that Hod and Netzach are out of balance is to state that the universe is imperfect in some way... as if it is possible in any way to mar the harmony of the Supreme Being. It is a subtle distinction and one which leads the Judaic Kabbalists to misjudge the nature of reality.

 

The Hermetic Qabalah allows for imbalance. In fact, it demands it below the supernals. Imbalance creates motion and binary consciousness. It is an integral part of the tree, built into it. The Sephiroth don't "move left or right" in the Hermetic philosophy. Concepts like this which have slowly accumulated within the Judaic Kabbalah (and which remain unchallenged) are why I hold that the Hermetic Qabalah is a vastly more effective spiritual system, having been stripped of religious legalism and dogma.

 

UFA

 

As far as the Hermetic QBL being superior as a system I completley agree. But we must ask ourselves what is a Sefirot, who is the authority on defining what that is, what is the difference between a Sefirot in our system and the Judaic system, how can one move something that per the Sefer Yetzirah, is not a thing at all, Ten Sefirah of Nothingness it reads (I'm big on the SY much like PFC and Westcott were, Zohar and the more religious stuff...not so much, again agreed).

 

But this notion of imperfection, of a fallen creaton, is not unique to Judaic Kabalah, it's inherent in the GD as well, is it not - edit: for insance in the 5=6 ritual I believe the Aspirant states, "I am the rescuer of matter," Spirit is something that must be liberated from dense matter, again Key 6.

 

 

Also:

 

WE Butler's take on what it means to 'rescue matter.'

Edited July 8, 2015 by noonespecial

[Geof Nanto]

Then you very much will not care for my views on Homo Illuminatus.

 

UFA

 

Actually I would, but my natural affinity is towards Eastern cosmology so the myths and terminology you use are not familiar to me. My only knowledge of Western alchemy is via Jung's extensive research and writings. I have found his work on the subject extremely helpful for me personally.

 

I note you tend to create polarity (opposition) with the tone of your replies. Is this intentional?

Edited July 8, 2015 by Yueya

[FraterUFA]

As far as the Hermetic QBL being superior as a system I completley agree. But we must ask ourselves what is a Sefirot, who is the authority on defining what that is,

 

The adept is the authority, no other. At least in the sense of a practical, working system that can be used for its intended purpose.

 

But this notion of imperfection, of a fallen creaton, is not unique to Judaic Kabalah, it's inherent in the GD as well, is it not - edit: for insance in the 5=6 ritual I believe the Aspirant states, "I am the rescuer of matter," Spirit is something that must be liberated from dense matter, again Key 6.

 

It's a core teaching of the Hermetic Qabalah as well.

 

UFA

[FraterUFA]

I note you tend to create polarity (opposition) with the tone of your replies. Is this intentional?

 

I am sapiens serpentum. It is you who creates the opposition.

 

UFA

[noonespecial]

You have misinterpreted my words here. My point was exactly "The product of one-sided masculine (or one-sided feminine) is dysfunction."  However, I'd say consciousness cannot exist without polarity. The "One" you and others speak of with confidence as if it's something knowable, to my mind, is so far beyond and outside the human it's best left as an incomprehensible mystery. 

 

I would think an experience of the One would default to void from our current perspective. Glimpses can be caught here and there...

 

Anyhew, here is a solid explanation of the One splitting itself:

 

"Now, the problem with this unified-field is that because everything contained in it exists in a state of balance, where each of its parts is in harmony with the others, no growth or evolution can happen in that state. In order to have growth we must have a

condition where one thing can relate to another thing. In other words, we must have a 'two-thing' condition, which does not exist at the core of the Anima Mundi. So the Anima Mundi is simply a store-house. It is not a place where things grow and develop. Because of this, if we want to grow and develop ... to 'express' all that is 'potential' in the Anima Mundi, we must create another condition where that can be possible. In the more religious descriptions of Hermetic theory this situation is sometimes explained as ... God (the Sole existent One Creator), decided to extend out from Itself, and by doing-so, divide Itself in to two parts, or in two. Note, It does not create a new second part, it divides Itself." - Rubaphilos

 

http://www.rubaphilos.com/texts/The%20Yahoo%20Lectures%20vol%20I%20v2.pdf

[noonespecial]

It's a core teaching of the Hermetic Qabalah as well.

 

UFA

 

Yes, that's what I wrote.

 

I get what you are saying though, that resistance is built into the binary system so it does not unify but continues evolving.

Edited July 9, 2015 by noonespecial