FraterUFA Posted July 9, 2015 But this notion of imperfection, of a fallen creaton, is not unique to Judaic Kabalah, it's inherent in the GD as well, is it not - edit: for insance in the 5=6 ritual I believe the Aspirant states, "I am the rescuer of matter," Spirit is something that must be liberated from dense matter, again Key 6. Yes, that's what I wrote. Are you sure of that? UFA Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
noonespecial Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) Are you sure of that? UFA Imperfection NOT unique to Judaic Kabalah. Unless, there is some sort of miscommunication here? Or perhaps you are misinterpreting Kaplan, what he wrote in one swift verse took Dion Fortune a couple hundred pages in Circuit of Force. Edited July 9, 2015 by noonespecial Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FraterUFA Posted July 9, 2015 Imperfection NOT unique to Judaic Kabalah. Unless, there is some sort of miscommunication here? Perhaps. Your reply to my comment about the Hermetic Qabalah suggests that you consider Golden Dawn and Hermetic Qabalah to be the same. If that is not the case, then it was indeed a miscommunication. Or perhaps you are misinterpreting Kaplan, what he wrote in one swift verse took Dion Fortune a couple hundred pages in Circuit of Force. I couldn't tell you. Books aren't my thing. UFA Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
noonespecial Posted July 9, 2015 Perhaps. Your reply to my comment about the Hermetic Qabalah suggests that you consider Golden Dawn and Hermetic Qabalah to be the same. If that is not the case, then it was indeed a miscommunication. Ah, I see. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
noonespecial Posted July 9, 2015 So what do you consider hermetic qabalah if not golden dawn, perhaps for another thread. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FraterUFA Posted July 9, 2015 So what do you consider hermetic qabalah if not golden dawn, perhaps for another thread. I'll reply as a side note here as it's not something I intend to discuss in much detail. I consider it to be the living Qabalah of the Hermetic scientists. This Qabalah differs from the mainstream (GD and other variants) in several respects. First, the seed is transmitted from master to novice. Second, the teaching is recovered in full by the student. Third, it unifies that which we commonly perceive as inner and outer. Fourth, it enables the successful practice of alchemy, without which is virtually impossible. Finally and most importantly, it is a practical and fast system of Spiritual Illumination. UFA Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
noonespecial Posted July 9, 2015 Language of the Birds. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 9, 2015 As far as the Hermetic QBL being superior as a system I completley agree. But we must ask ourselves what is a Sefirot, who is the authority on defining what that is, what is the difference between a Sefirot in our system and the Judaic system, how can one move something that per the Sefer Yetzirah, is not a thing at all, Ten Sefirah of Nothingness it reads (I'm big on the SY much like PFC and Westcott were, Zohar and the more religious stuff...not so much, again agreed). But this notion of imperfection, of a fallen creaton, is not unique to Judaic Kabalah, it's inherent in the GD as well, is it not - edit: for insance in the 5=6 ritual I believe the Aspirant states, "I am the rescuer of matter," Spirit is something that must be liberated from dense matter, again Key 6. Also: WE Butler's take on what it means to 'rescue matter.' I see the' fall' as a necessary rearrangement when using the creative arrangement of the ToL into a personal map of one's psyche - Geburah / Mars has to 'drop' down into the Venus / Mercury / Moon relationship, and this changes the whole structure of the Tree (as it relates to the psychological make up) like a collapsed crystal, and forms a new shape. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
noonespecial Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) I see the' fall' as a necessary rearrangement when using the creative arrangement of the ToL into a personal map of one's psyche - Geburah / Mars has to 'drop' down into the Venus / Mercury / Moon relationship, and this changes the whole structure of the Tree (as it relates to the psychological make up) like a collapsed crystal, and forms a new shape. Why strength? edit - I think I know what you mean, or maybe not. Edited July 9, 2015 by noonespecial Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 10, 2015 'Strength' / 'Mars' and 'male force' (typified by Aries ) , in the human psyche, needs to polarised by Venus and regulated (and crowned) by Mercury . Then there is a very good match with the 3 psychological drives ( or 'tendencies' ) of the 'unconscious' (the Moon in the centre of the 4 inner planets. But , of course, in the psyche, they are now longer 'sephiroth'. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
noonespecial Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) 'Strength' / 'Mars' and 'male force' (typified by Aries ) , in the human psyche, needs to polarised by Venus and regulated (and crowned) by Mercury . Then there is a very good match with the 3 psychological drives ( or 'tendencies' ) of the 'unconscious' (the Moon in the centre of the 4 inner planets. But , of course, in the psyche, they are now longer 'sephiroth'. Nice. IMO they are still Sephirah, when two come together one appears briefly before splitting again, much like a mandelbrot set - infinite flux, this is what Kaplan was saying, microcosmically we can move what we assign to this sequence of 10 numbers to manipulate the forces we receive in our psyches, it's fluidic, and unique to every individual, and we will receive an appropriate response from God according to how we combine and permutate the numbers, paths and meanings. Edited July 10, 2015 by noonespecial Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) But I dont agree that we can move them around. They have moved ... or always were that way ... they are 'moved' in relation to the ToL position. However we can forge new pathways. Its the pathways and the relationships between the centres where the individual arrangements are and 'adjustments' can be made via the 'art of change'. The individual pattern within this greater template , IMO is set via the natal horoscope. EG, if the pathway in the psychic map between two nodes - is set by a 'bad aspect' one can find a good relationship via other good aspects and take a different path or approach. (ETA ; Sheesh! ) Edited July 11, 2015 by Nungali Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
noonespecial Posted July 11, 2015 Oh, somehow we agree, or at least I cnat say I disagree, lol. Again a problem of semantics, how do you think this relates to concept of op, why must Shekinah be rescured, either collectively or internally? In regards to the mutability of the serifot, it may just be a matter of dna, the difference between the arabic, jewish and persian mind and the anglo-saxon mind, how were the jewish sages and sufi saints able to reach such supremes states of attainment sans images and overt usage of the zodiac using just prayer, number, letter, calligraphy and sound and the permuations thereof? Likewise, where did brother CR go to attain knowledge in the myth of the rosicrucians, for that matter are the western mysteries even western? To speak of their mutability does not imply in anyway the lack of their harmony, just as we can arrange notes to compose different melodies, so to can the spheres move to compose new songs, likewise we can do the same within our localized spheres, isnt that the whole point, overcoming the fates or our natural inclinations? This seems to be precisely what you are saying in a differnet manner. I came upon this just last night, ironically exactly what we are discussing, its well worth the 8 minutes: the original tree (from my people lol) the copy... sorry for ranting, i find this all fascinating Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 11, 2015 (edited) Oh, somehow we agree, or at least I cnat say I disagree, lol. Again a problem of semantics, how do you think this relates to concept of op, why must Shekinah be rescured, either collectively or internally? The way is see this issue is Shekinah is the 'soul' . But what I see as the 'soul' is an individuation of the 'spirit of man' - that faculty which makes us different from all the animals - it relates to 'projective' imagination and the needful desire to see those projections take forms, in one way or another. In that regard, I am a keen student of this myth ; http://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/Psykhe.html In regards to the mutability of the serifot, it may just be a matter of dna, the difference between the arabic, jewish and persian mind and the anglo-saxon mind, No, I disagree , history shows the 'Mars problem' evident in nearly all patriarchal cultures. Within those cultures there are some individuals, groups, practises which have tried to address it. Changes have come about to an extent, when 'Mercury' is allowed to influence; those cultures become less 'Martially problematical ' (eg the influence of Zoroastrianism on Cyrus II ... such people are known to respect the religion and customs of the lands they conquer ... they have tempered, to an extent, their Mars energy ). I suppose though ... in a way, I am doing similar ... I am drawing an energy 'up and down' through me ... but it is energy that passes through Sephiroth , whether 'serpent or lightening bolt', I dont feel that I am moving any 'node' , as such. When we finally have true sexual equality , and 'Shekinah is redeemed' and we can acknowledge our our own souls ... for what they are and what they need , then we will have advanced, then maybe a lot of that is promised from such a redemption will begin to fill the void in the paradigm . how were the jewish sages and sufi saints able to reach such supremes states of attainment sans images and overt usage of the zodiac using just prayer, number, letter, calligraphy and sound and the permuations thereof? Just using ? I would imagine any one of those paths could do that, if approached rightly. ( One Sufi 'attained' just by jumping in the river ) . They also had other parts to their lifestyles . Also I believe they were, in their own ways, Hermeticists .... the arts that are crowned by Mercurius. Likewise, where did brother CR go to attain knowledge in the myth of the rosicrucians, for that matter are the western mysteries even western? Well, the western parts are . But much of what appears to be western may have eastern origins. Large parts of the late 19th C and the 20th C western occult traditions and orders seem to stem from ecstatic kabbalism. Spitiualism (of the 'table rapping and ecotoplasm' variety became blended with varieties of this 'western' tantra. But then some mixed it up with (in the USA) 'cowboy Platonism' , which I would say, has to be Western ? But a lot of the western Platonic interest seemed to have dissipated. https://newtopiamagazine.wordpress.com/2013/03/19/thomas-johnson-platonism-meets-sex-magic-on-the-prairie/ Then it went down the drain of 'sex magic'. There is the HBL and its relatives and spinoffs, even given the 'Egyptian Connection' (including Blavatski's associations during her 'pre- India days' ) seems also influenced from the rad Kabbalists . East / West ... ? I wonder how the indigenous shamanism of Australia fits in there ? To speak of their mutability does not imply in anyway the lack of their harmony, just as we can arrange notes to compose different melodies, so to can the spheres move to compose new songs, likewise we can do the same within our localized spheres, isnt that the whole point, overcoming the fates or our natural inclinations? This seems to be precisely what you are saying in a differnet manner. Sort of ... to an extent. We can have a 'boundary' ( sphere of influence ) greater than we realise , but not greater than is set for us. Its not so much a matter of moving the 'spheres' as such .... and all this talk of spheres is muddling different ideas in with Sephiroth , to me. I would look at , as in Ex-psychology... we come with some hard wiring or written programmes ... and we come with some programmes we can write into. We have some we can circumvent or utilise more, but I dont think we can just float them around or rearrange them. I came upon this just last night, ironically exactly what we are discussing, its well worth the 8 minutes: the original tree (from my people lol) Many a mystery is woven into some carpets ! the copy... That looks nearly as 'messy ' as my diagrams of my 'astro/psychological tree' ( ... it goes up into theories of the Universe (including ' M theory' ) and neo-Egyptian God forms , with Jungian psychological divisions divided and inter penetrating and overlaid on it. " sorry for ranting, i find this all fascinating " Edited July 11, 2015 by Nungali 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
noonespecial Posted July 12, 2015 Ah teh sex magick! I knew it. The sun in the virgin transmutes the scorpion into the virgin mother who tramples on the snake so that the father can be born in the son, egats...translate that one into sexual terms and we all might end up behind bars. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 12, 2015 Ah teh sex magick! I knew it. The sun in the virgin transmutes the scorpion into the virgin mother who tramples on the snake so that the father can be born in the son, egats...translate that one into sexual terms and we all might end up behind bars. ARIES. Hail thou! Whence comest thou? SCORPIO-APOPHIS. From the House of God. ARIES. What bringest thou as an offering to our Lord? SCORPIO-APOPHIS. The House of God is fallen. There is nothing left therein. Therefore I bring nothing but myself. ... ARIES. Who are ye, brethren? ... SCORPIO-APOPHIS. I am the beloved of the sun. ... SCORPIO-APOPHIS. I am the Mother of the Gods and the Sister of Time and the Daughter of Space. I am Nature that holdeth sway when the effort of man is exhausted......Brother Leo, I am the goddess that cometh forth riding upon the Lion. Behold! I strike thee with my wand, and inspire thee ....... [ from The Rite of Sol ] * The Father lives in the Son / Sun .... the daily / annual solar cycles, development of agriculture 'dying God' myth ... the king is dead, long live the (new) king ... he is born again, but in a different way. I see it as a 'genetic mystery and not as a sexual one. The sexual part of the mystery was meant to be (in post-Victorian times) enacted with one's wife, so as to produce 'spiritualised' children and create an harmoniums family environment. ,,,,, but then .... sex magic Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
noonespecial Posted July 12, 2015 SCORPIO-APOPHIS. I am the Mother of the Gods and the Sister of Time and the Daughter of Space. I am Nature that holdeth sway when the effort of man is exhausted......Brother Leo, I am the goddess that cometh forth riding upon the Lion. Behold! I strike thee with my wand, and inspire thee ....... * The Father lives in the Son / Sun .... the daily / annual solar cycles, development of agriculture 'dying God' myth ... the king is dead, long live the (new) king ... he is born again, but in a different way. I see it as a 'genetic mystery and not as a sexual one. Transmutation of the snake, rise of the eagle (phoenix). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
noonespecial Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) "Mark thou well the difference between the two Serpents, for before the Serpent of Brass, the Serpent of Fire could not stand. But at the Fall, the Serpent of Evil arising in the Tree surrounded Malkuth, and linked her thus unto the Outer and the Qlippoth, or this is the Sin of the Fall, even the seperation of the Material Plane from the Sefirot, through the interposition of the Coils of the Stooping Dragon." - GD paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamites Thats a lot of snakes, fighting over one girl. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os6ieSdbyZ8 Edited July 12, 2015 by noonespecial Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 12, 2015 The coils of the GD stooping dragon eh ? What does that mean ? http://hermetic.com/beastbay/977122345/ But anyway, 'Adamites' ... hmmmm we seem to have phases in and out of that ; ' free love' / lack of restriction / communalism and then some patriarchal dictator arrives, changes the society and forbids it. Like an alpha male primate doesnt like the other males having sex (or Stalin inspires a national woman's costume, that just happens to be the same as his mother dressed ) http://www.wilhelmreichtrust.org/book_burning-2011_09_24.html Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
noonespecial Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) The coils of the GD stooping dragon eh ? What does that mean ? Thats a good question, probably nothing on a practical level lol - even as far as energy work and internal culitvation I do not see much benefit. But the cosomolgy behind it implies that there is an eternal struggle (qlippoth want their money back) for the control of matter, or what appears to be a struggle from our perspective is actually a necessity of creation. I don't think it is realted to morals in any classical sense. nice GD link btw, even though its beyond my current level of comprhension. Alpha male primates, do you know of the bonobos? The most peaceful primates on the earth are a fully matriarchal society, the females sleep with who they want, when the want, and the children could be any of the males, thus the males do no attempt infanticide as in other mammal species. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=va02Y5uI9g8 Edited July 13, 2015 by noonespecial Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
noonespecial Posted July 13, 2015 its a lot better in writing... lol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) Thats a good question, probably nothing on a practical level lol - even as far as energy work and internal culitvation I do not see much benefit. But the cosomolgy behind it implies that there is an eternal struggle (qlippoth want their money back) for the control of matter, or what appears to be a struggle from our perspective is actually a necessity of creation. I don't think it is realted to morals in any classical sense. nice GD link btw, even though its beyond my current level of comprhension. Alpha male primates, do you know of the bonobos? The most peaceful primates on the earth are a fully matriarchal society, the females sleep with who they want, when the want, and the children could be any of the males, thus the males do no attempt infanticide as in other mammal species. Good answer ! ( nothing on a practical level ) Yes, the bonobo are an exception, and still, today we have some remnant exceptions in human cultures, but they are rare ..... ( and two valleys south from here is the 'wild and near mythological' - 'Woman's Land' ... nope, never been there ... just heard the stories. ) Years back on the community here it was a bit like those monkeys ... but the lads were still trying to alpha male it ... the funny part was, they assumed I had claimed the job and were angry with me (I found out ). I had a couple of nice GFs ... I suppose they got jealous, some tried to psyche me out ( HA! ) , then tried to out brain me (nah! ) ... even tried a few dirty tricks (managed to reverse them ) ... one even tried psychic/ magical attack (that ended up pretty funny ) ... multi level frustration can lead to 'boys' wanting to 'sort it out'. One time they had a meeting about some problem (I was not present at it) and the women got the shits with them and said they should all fight it out and whoever wins will be the 'leader' .... but then they got the shits more because they assumed I would win the fight ... Poor guys ! They couldnt figure it out ... if they just relaxed and concentrated more on having a good time and just 'cooled their jets' life would have been pretty good for them (I know as some of the women told me this.) have you read R. A. Wilson's stuff on 'mammalian politics' ? Interesting stuff ! Edited July 13, 2015 by Nungali Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) its a lot better in writing... lol O M G ! The spirit of tragedy all right ! Performing in a Rite of Eleusis - 10 / 10 . (if you know what the hell is going on that is ) * Watching someone else's Rite of Eleusis - 2 / 10 Watching Rite of Eleusis on youtube - -93 / 10 . * Snippet from Rite of Sol ; We entered from the east coming over the hill up on to the central circle where the 'temple of Sol' had been set up. Fr. MV is Besz ... I knew he was going to go off (like he often does ) so I had the dog choker lead around his throat, he is lunging and snarling at people and its taking some effort to restrain him, the 'audience' can see our struggle and the lead pressing into his throat as he lunges at them . Later we were told our back drop was a storm approaching behind us with dark clouds and lightening flashing, we didnt realise as our backs were against it. Sister Scorpio looked sexy in her outfit and the 'tattoos' I had painted all over her body earlier. The outside sound system was pumping out 'Tupelo' by Nick Cave The audience liked the Sol temple, which we had made as a parody of a church - full of riches, crap and money, some extracted from the audience as 'devotees' of Sol. After the crucifixion of Sol and then his removal MV goes ballistic and starts smashing up the temple, so I join him ( People were upset at this, but the props cost under $50, mostly cheap tinsel, dollar saver shop crap and old christmas decorations ... how easily people are fooled! - " Mortals never learn from stories How catastrophé becomes; How above the victor's glories In the trumpets and the drums And the cry of millions ' Master ! ' Looms the shadow of disaster." ) Then, there was this huge red cross left standing with a gold painted fired clay Sun motif on the top of it with the sun setting behind it in the sky, I hurled the lance at it and got it, it exploded and shattered just as the last part of the sun slipped around the horizon. We pulled the hidden ropes and cords, the sumptuous green velvet backdrop moved across, the alter turned around to show the green and Kamea of Venus ... the music changed from Nick Cave to something more appropriate and spacey, Scorpio slipped on her Green jewelled Venus robe and sat on the throne with Venus in the sky above her head. You cant plan stuff like that (exactly) ... it was pretty amazing. If it had been filmed, it probably would have looked like shit though Edited July 13, 2015 by Nungali Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
