Personality after death

[RookieIAm]

I know it's commonly believed that after death one will reap their karma and then be stripped of their personality and reincarnated whereas the memories of said person will be stored in the Akashic record; but what happens to the personality?  Is it also stored somewhere or does it disappear forever?

[Marblehead]

Hi RookieIAm,

 

This thread would be better in the Buddhist sub-forum than in the Daoist sub-forum but perhaps the subject can be discussed from a Daoist point of view.

 

In my understanding there is nothing in the Tao Te Ching that suggests any form of reincarnation so the question is nullified.

 

Chuang Tzu, however, loved to talk about spirituality and the cycles of life and death.  The Butterfly Dream is a perfect example.  Some read this as an indicator of reincarnation.  I don't but that doesn't matter.

 

But even in his stories he speaks of what I call "transmutation".  That is, upon death, what we were will become something else.  This something else would not include any of our mind realm, only our body realm.  Our brain becomes worm food.

 

However, I must point out that this is only a philosophical point of view.  There are other aspects of Taoism that would disagree with me, especially Religious Taoism, as it is Buddhist oriented in the most part.

[Geof Nanto]

Yes, the phrasing of the OP is definitely from a Buddhist perspective. For a comprehensive overview of Daoist beliefs (according to Louis Komjathy) see.....

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/38279-the-dream-of-the-butterfly/?p=624284

Edited July 8, 2015 by Yueya

[zerostao]

some of your personality will stay the same and some of it will change.

 

"especially Religious Taoism,"

 

religious daoism is one thing, spiritual daoism is another.

the Dao did not begin with lz or zz

[Marblehead]

In the beginning there was darkness.

 

Wait!  Different story.

 

In the beginning there was Ancient Chinese Shamanic and Alchemic tradition.

 

Then these evolved into Philosophical Taoism.

 

This then evolved into Religious Taoism.

 

I arrived in the Philosophical era and have not needed to evolve.  Kinda' like the crocodile.  When you attain perfection you stop evolving.

[Geof Nanto]

The absolute certainty with which beliefs are held never ceases to surprise me.

[RookieIAm]

Hi RookieIAm,

 

This thread would be better in the Buddhist sub-forum than in the Daoist sub-forum but perhaps the subject can be discussed from a Daoist point of view.

 

In my understanding there is nothing in the Tao Te Ching that suggests any form of reincarnation so the question is nullified.

 

Chuang Tzu, however, loved to talk about spirituality and the cycles of life and death.  The Butterfly Dream is a perfect example.  Some read this as an indicator of reincarnation.  I don't but that doesn't matter.

 

But even in his stories he speaks of what I call "transmutation".  That is, upon death, what we were will become something else.  This something else would not include any of our mind realm, only our body realm.  Our brain becomes worm food.

 

However, I must point out that this is only a philosophical point of view.  There are other aspects of Taoism that would disagree with me, especially Religious Taoism, as it is Buddhist oriented in the most part.

So if you do not believe in reincarnation of the soul after death, what do you believe happens?

[Kongming]

I personally like Julius Evola's insights into this matter from a Daoist perspective as described into his introduction to the Daodejing, which was released as a sort of pamphlet in English under the title Taoism: The Magic, the Mysticism. Here are two separate sections where he touches on the doctrines of transformation, transmigration, and immortality; here's the first worth quoting:

 

 

The second instance concerns the notion of mutation, yi, in which, according to both l-Ching and Taoism, the intimations of production, creation, development, and becoming are summed up. Beings and things appear, become and disappear, in virtue of a "change of state." In everything that happens, rises and declines (in birth, life and death) there are only changes of state. This is a fundamental view in the metaphysical systems of the East. In the Principle, the potentialities of being are present in a pre-formal state. Through the eternal power of the One (equated in this aspect to the feminine functions of bringing to life by generating, of feeding and of nourishing), these potentialities assume a formal state (as we shall see, "corporeity" is a synonym of this state) and thus enter into the stream of transformations. They could remain in.this stream, caught up in an undetermined situation, analogous to that of the Hindu samsara and of the Hellenic kuklos tes'geneseos (the cycle of generation), if attachment to a form still persists in them. This situation, though, should not be understood in terms of reincarnation, namely as a necessary and repeated reappearance in the human condition, but rather as "transmigration," since being a human being is just an episode in the chain of transformations. In that event, these potentialities undergo a crisis of discontinuity caused by the various changes-of state, namely by the "going out" (being born) and by the "coming back" (dying). These crises can be overcome when these potentialities separate themselves from the formal- condition and become integrated into that Transcendence which is present and active in Immanence. When this occurs, they become "men of Tao" or "men of'the Way." In technical language, according to the etymology of the word, "transformation" ("to go beyond the form") corresponds to'the second case; transformations of the first case, taking place in a "horizontal" sense, in a succession or in a cyclical pattern, are mere "changes of state" and metaphysically irrelevant. With the exception of what is proper to the domain of esoteric Taoism, to which I will refer later on, and from the absolute point of view of this doctrine, not unlike Vedanta and Mahayana (Scotus Erigena and Meister Eckhart may be considered their Western counterparts), the difference, between these two conditions consists in a pure matter 'of consciousness. It has already, been said-that according to this point of view; nothing is ever outside the Way or the Great Perfection. In the Tao- Te-Ching this is expressed by the saying "Great, it passes on. Passing on, it becomes remote. Having become remote, it returns." In the stream of forms, the end and the beginning get mixed up and, as another text suggests, "They become illuminated by a great light."

 

And the second:

 

 

 

In order to make sense of the doctrine of immortality, which is shared by Taoism and by other Eastern and Western initiatory schools, it will be useful to compare it with the religious views expressed by Christianity as a way of example, According to Christianity every soul is immortal; immortality is the soul's substance and it is taken for granted. The issue, in Christianity, is not whether the soul survives death, but only the way in which it will survive, namely whether it will obtain bliss in Heaven or suffer the eternal punishments of hell. Thus, the believer's main concern is not to escape death, but to avoid the fate of hell, and obtain the-rewards of Heaven for his immortal soul. Thus capsules the Christian conception of "salvation."

 

The initiatory doctrine views the matter in quite a different way: the problem is not how the soul survives, but whether it survives. The real alternative is between survival and nonsurvival, since survival and immortality are not taken for granted, but are seen as a simple and unusual outcome. According to Taoism, almost everybody is inscribed in the Book of Death. In some exceptional eases the Ruler of Destiny cancels a person's name from this book and inscribes it instead in the Book of Life, which contains the names of the Immortals. It would be easy to indicate the correspondences of this anti-democratic view of immortality with other traditions which express it in the inner content of their own myths. It suffices to mention the idea found in ancient Hellas of the double fate-incurred by the "heroes" who are destined to attain the almost Olympian seats of the immortal gods and by the oi polloi. But in-esoteric Taoism, besides this doctrine, there is a body of techniques which has to be applied in order to obtain the privilege of immortality, by inducing a change of state, namely the previously mentioned "transformation."

 

A second difference between initiatory doctrine and religious exotericism is that while according to the latter the soul enjoys immortality upon becoming detached from the body, Taoism upholds the seemingly bizarre idea that immortality should be "constructed" in the body and through the transformation of the body'. This idea, which is also found in other initiatory and mystery teachings, finds a favorable context in the metaphysics of the Far East. This metaphysics, beginning with the comments found in the I-Ching, has ignored the dualism of body and soul, of spirit and matter. In this context, birth has been conceived as the passage of a being from the invisible and formless state to the visible and formal state. Corporeality has likewise been conceived merely as existence in a form, or as an exteriorized existence. The latter has been explained as the coalescence, or bonding, of the spiritual element. In order to explain the ensuing change of state, some symbolic and corporeal images have been provided, such as that of the fixing of spirits or "breath" or the coagulation of the subtle and ethereal substance (khi). In its deepest meaning, the fixing consists in the identification of being with a formal existence. The formal, exteriorized existence is then caught up in the current of transformations, and thus becomes subject to the crises proper to every change of state, as well as to the process of exiting a state (dying) in order to enter a new one (being born). It seems natural that this crisis can have destructive consequences for those who have become fixed in a form, that is, in the bodily state. Having failed to preserve and having "dissipated" the sense of the One or the Essence, such a being cannot survive, but will repeatedly "enter -and "exit" the life stream, though nothing permanent will survive. According to Taoism, his being, as an individual, will disintegrate. At the moment of death, since the metaphysical principle is clouded, the various forces (portrayed as many entities residing in the body) kept together in the bodily organism, and in general, in the human personality, become free and cease to supply a foundation to consciousness and to the sense of continuity of the individual Ego.

 

This is an extremely realistic, and the digressive background on which the esoteric doctrine of immortality is articulated. According to this doctrine, immortality must be elaborated in the body while one is alive (dying before one's time is thus considered a disgraceful circumstance), on the basis of an ontological and existential transformation taking place in the condition of the formal existence. Immortality does not mean physically escaping death, but rather avoiding altogether the crisis which, in the case of ordinary people, is connected to the transformation or change of state (hua).

Edited July 8, 2015 by Kongming

[Perceiver]

A lot of people are practicing astral travel these days. They report meeting deceased people on some of the astral planes. You can read about their experiences on some of the forums out there.

 

In topics like these we of course can't be 100% sure, but I'd say their statements have more weight than old taoist and buddhist ideas.

[Marblehead]

So if you do not believe in reincarnation of the soul after death, what do you believe happens?

We die.

 

Okay, a little more detail.

 

Our body, all that is physical, is used to create or nurture other things of the manifest.  Our body will become a part of something else so really it's not an end but rather a transmutation.  Death is really just the beginning of a new cycle. 

 

Now, I do hold to the concepts of personal and universal Chi.  This could be called the energy of life.  (This energy of life could be called the soul or the spirit or both.)  Our personal Chi returns to universal Chi to either be used again to give life to some other essence, perhaps a butterfly, or it may remain within the oneness of universal Chi for a very long time.

 

But since universal Chi is likened to Oneness all individuality is consumed by Oneness and there are no longer any distinctions between this and that.  This and that don't even exist within Oneness.

 

This would require the dissolution of personality as it was personal to the individual.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Marblehead

[Geof Nanto]

I know this doesn't make for very interesting discussion, but I'd prefer to say simply "I don't know what happens after death". I'm content to leave it to the unfolding of the mysterious Dao. We'll all reach it in our own ways. 

[Marblehead]

I know this doesn't make for very interesting discussion, but I'd prefer to say simply "I don't know what happens after death". I'm content to leave it to the unfolding of the mysterious Dao. We'll all reach it in our own ways. 

Well, hey, I don't know either.  I have my understandings and that is all.  After I die, if there is still some figment of an I then at that time I will have a pretty good idea even though I still might not know.

 

Yes, I hear what you are saying.  But it's nice to sometimes speculate about those things we know nothing about.

[Geof Nanto]

 But it's nice to sometimes speculate about those things we know nothing about.

 

Yes, I do the same. This forum would decidedly lack content if we all only posted comments from actual experience.

[Marblehead]

Yes, I do the same. This forum would decidedly lack content if we all only posted comments from actual experience.

Hehehe.  Belly laughs.  All my posts would be about bikinis and short skirts.

[RookieIAm]

We die.

 

Okay, a little more detail.

 

Our body, all that is physical, is used to create or nurture other things of the manifest.  Our body will become a part of something else so really it's not and end but rather a transmutation.  Death is really just the beginning of a new cycle. 

 

Now, I do hold to the concepts of personal and universal Chi.  This could be called the energy of life.  (This energy of life could be called the soul or the spirit or both.)  Our personal Chi returns to universal Chi to either be used again to give life to some other essence, perhaps a butterfly, or it may remain within the oneness of universal Chi for a very long time.

 

But since universal Chi is likened to Oneness all individuality is consumed by Oneness and there are no longer any distinctions between this and that.  This and that don't even exist within Oneness.

 

This would require the dissolution of personality as it was personal to the individual.

lol what i was really trying to get at is whether it is possible to communicate with the personality of the deceased while one is alive, say even after the "soul" of the deceased has been reused or is waiting to be.  Essentially, i am asking what would happen to the personality of a person, independent of their "soul".  Would it exist in its own realm, kind of like what Perceiver said

 

A lot of people are practicing astral travel these days. They report meeting deceased people on some of the astral planes. You can read about their experiences on some of the forums out there.

 

In topics like these we of course can't be 100% sure, but I'd say their statements have more weight than old taoist and buddhist ideas.

[zerostao]

A lot of people are practicing astral travel these days. They report meeting deceased people on some of the astral planes. You can read about their experiences on some of the forums out there.

 

In topics like these we of course can't be 100% sure, but I'd say their statements have more weight than old taoist and buddhist ideas.

 

so you are prejudiced against the ancients who were decidedly closer to nature and elements than we are?

and you dont have to travel the astral planes to meet former physical folks.

We die.

 

Okay, a little more detail.

 

Our body, all that is physical, is used to create or nurture other things of the manifest.  Our body will become a part of something else so really it's not and end but rather a transmutation.  Death is really just the beginning of a new cycle. 

 

Now, I do hold to the concepts of personal and universal Chi.  This could be called the energy of life.  (This energy of life could be called the soul or the spirit or both.)  Our personal Chi returns to universal Chi to either be used again to give life to some other essence, perhaps a butterfly, or it may remain within the oneness of universal Chi for a very long time.

 

But since universal Chi is likened to Oneness all individuality is consumed by Oneness and there are no longer any distinctions between this and that.  This and that don't even exist within Oneness.

 

This would require the dissolution of personality as it was personal to the individual.

what i bolded, i totally agree with. your oneness concept, while interesting, is still speculative. and it could be true contingent on time,, newly "graduated" folks may retain their personality for who knows how long before entering this oneness you present. 

 

Yes, I do the same. This forum would decidedly lack content if we all only posted comments from actual experience.

?? i think there are many posters who post based on direct experience on this forum

[Daeluin]

lol what i was really trying to get at is whether it is possible to communicate with the personality of the deceased while one is alive, say even after the "soul" of the deceased has been reused or is waiting to be.  Essentially, i am asking what would happen to the personality of a person, independent of their "soul".  Would it exist in its own realm, kind of like what Perceiver said

 

 

There is also the concept of the upper soul and the lower soul, the hun and po, in the five elemental forces associated with wood and metal. It is easy for the lower soul to dominate, getting fixated on experiencing, judging, controlling, all at the expense of balance and integration with the upper soul, which is more etherial, spiritual. If we don't purify and cultivate our physical bodies, it is difficult to draw in and more fully embody our higher soul, let alone fuse them together.

 

When our physical forms die the memories of the brain dissolve, and yet the patterns we created with our energy remain. As far as memories go, perhaps our past actions are imprinted on time in a way that can be reviewed, should one be able to tune into this - as with the akashic records, or in the methods described in the biography of Wang Liping.

 

Now with this pattern of our soul, what happens? Without a body, in an etherial form, one may not be able to influence matter or control things, even the patterns of one's own energetic makeup. As best I am able to follow the principle, it seems if one has not fused one's upper and lower souls, then they separate upon death. To borrow from Kongming's quotes:

 

 

Through the eternal power of the One, these potentialities assume a formal state and thus enter into the stream of transformations. They could remain in this stream, caught up in an undetermined situation, analogous to that of the Hindu samsara and of the Hellenic kuklos tes'geneseos (the cycle of generation), if attachment to a form still persists in them.

 

Here the lower soul is heavier and has attachment to form. When the higher and lower souls separate, not being integrated as one, the lower soul lingers as a ghost, and these energies waft around, drawn as though by gravity to patterns that are similar to themselves. At least this is the essence of the principle, as far as I can tell. While the lower soul is slave to the gravity of the patterns it has been shaped in, the higher soul perhaps has some clarity, perhaps waits for the right circumstances in which to reform the bond with it's lower counterpart. These right circumstances are simply those which are able to match the pattern that had been created - similar gravities in the planetary motions, similar patterns in the parents who are uniting sexually to create an opportunity to re-integrate in the physical. Perhaps it is possible for the bond to be severed completely, and the path of transmigration of the lower soul does not return as a human, but as something without as strong a heaven-earth connection. I don't know, nor do I know what the implication would be upon the higher soul it had been linked to. The principle would appear to limit the freedom of the higher soul, due to its link to the lower soul acting as a leash, or perhaps the lack of lower soul integration meaning an inability to shape intention - perhaps the integration itself is what provides a center for the intention to reside within. And remember both are limited in terms of autonomy and control over their environment, being trapped by the capacities of the shape they were released in.

 

So then the idea comes the if the two are able to integrate and fuse together, then upon death of the form, there is freedom and autonomy, to some extent - remember, how would the spiritual be able to influence the physical without either influencing the spirit of something embodied in the physical, or by re-integrating back into the physical itself?

 

Following principle, we might say the more completely one is able to transform and integrate while within the physical body, the more freedom one might enjoy upon transcending. Should one fully transcend, leaving nothing behind of the physical shell, perhaps one is able to transcend beyond both earth and heaven, returning to the tao, or before then perhaps having full access to both realms. I don't know. Principle is a useful tool, as it is able to withstand adaptation rather well, but is not without uncertainty. Tis quite beautiful and mysterious, how the 10,000 interact.

 

But yes, I have heard both accounts of people communicating with earthly ghosts and with spirits in the heavenly realm. Tis a matter of refinement.

 

Personality is largely ego - the inclinations to do this or that because of attachments - and to fuse the hun and po a great deal of ego dissolving is necessary. So to transcend beyond, the personality is dissolved. If one does not transcend, perhaps the personality is preserved, in a manner of speaking, in the patterns one has cultivated. Yet upon re-integration into form the personality is unlikely to re-emerge in the same way it did before. Perhaps it'd be better to think of it as the karma which is preserved. As we develop and create our personality, we shape the world around us, and, through time, weave all these intricate knots, which also separate ourselves from oneness - to be one, what need have we of that which distinguishes ourselves from others?

Edited July 9, 2015 by Daeluin

[Marblehead]

lol what i was really trying to get at is whether it is possible to communicate with the personality of the deceased while one is alive, say even after the "soul" of the deceased has been reused or is waiting to be.  Essentially, i am asking what would happen to the personality of a person, independent of their "soul".  Would it exist in its own realm, kind of like what Perceiver said

I will, one way or another, avoid talking about things like that because my belief system does not allow for it.

 

Dead men don't tell lies.

[Marblehead]

what i bolded, i totally agree with. your oneness concept, while interesting, is still speculative. and it could be true contingent on time,, newly "graduated" folks may retain their personality for who knows how long before entering this oneness you present. 

Sure, but how could I argue with you?  I haven't died yet so I don't know.  I don't even have an understanding.  But my opinion is that once we are brain dead all those other aspect of 'self' go with it - they die.  (Even though their memory may live on in the mind of those who have not yet died.)

[Marblehead]

Thanks Daeluin, for going places I cannot.  Sometimes things I say need be balanced with alternative perspectives.

[SonOfTheGods]

This thread may help you = it is anti-linear ,1 time-line death/reincarnation thinking:

 

How To Reckon "Past Lives" With Time

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/38623-how-to-reckon-past-lives-with-time/

[ChiForce]

Well, your personality is called your habitual life energy.  If they are responsible for your karma, they will get carried over to your next rebirth because they will determine the outcome of your bardo death experiences (ie. whether your particular personality would cling onto a particular visions or life issues at the time of your bardo death experiences)...If you have realized your own liberation during your bardo death experiences, you won't be reborn for another hundreds of years or in another eons.  This personality can be good or bad, fyi.   

[Perceiver]

so you are prejudiced against the ancients who were decidedly closer to nature and elements than we are?

 

I'm just a guy who likes to see evidence.

 

We don't know for certain who the ancients were, how their personalities were or how true their ideas are.

 

With astral travel you have numerous communities out there that are accessible to the public. There are hundreds of people reporting the same kind of experiences. In theory you could try it out yourself too if you give it some practice.

 

That to me comes closer to something that is scientifically falsifiable than the beliefs of the ancients do. And therefore I am currently giving it more weight, although I acknowledge that with the topic of death we don't have absolute certainty.

 

Kaboom.

[zerostao]

I'm just a guy who likes to see evidence.

 

We don't know for certain who the ancients were, how their personalities were or how true their ideas are.

 

With astral travel you have numerous communities out there that are accessible to the public. There are hundreds of people reporting the same kind of experiences. In theory you could try it out yourself too if you give it some practice.

 

That to me comes closer to something that is scientifically falsifiable than the beliefs of the ancients do. And therefore I am currently giving it more weight, although I acknowledge that with the topic of death we don't have absolute certainty.

 

Kaboom.

if You are looking for evidence doesnt it make sense that You should be the one to try it yourself?

are You presuming that i havnt done such a thing?

great thinkers always look to the ancients, da vinci is one example.

if you are going to wait on your belief system "science" to prove spirituality before you are open to the idea,

well, most likely you will be experiencing it firsthand on the other side before that ever happens.

 

edit> but your post does hint that you may be open minded abt it. my suggestion is learn for yourself rather than going by what others are reporting.  pioneers and discoverers are always in the extreme  minority or thought heretic

Edited July 11, 2015 by zerostao

[Gerard]

My personal experience resulting from practice, two major blocks:

1. Karma remains. The fetters you haven't removed from your post-birth consciousness as a human move forward as karma and then you'll be reborn according to what results after balancing 'sins' and 'good deeds' in this very lifetime of yours. In the 'sins' area there are some with more weight than others, therefore it takes several lifetimes to remove them plus the fact that you have to deal with them in very unpleasant realms (ghost, hell) or even as humans with very bad karma (torture, sexual abuse, severe disabilities, etc.) due to their weight, the heavier they are....the lower you go. Pure and simply gravitational physics applied to the subtle and the spiritual (they both have weight!).

 

 

 

2. Taoist energetics (yin and yang, 5E, bagua, Ba Zi, etc.) always apply but they are only the outer layer, so to speak. Karma, good deeds and sins move on to a 'soul' level, the higher stuff, what is journeying to the Tao. This is what Buddhas always stress in their teachings: MORALITY, and SERVICE (helping others with unconditional love without expecting anything in return).

 

Here's a good reading about the various levels of karmic debt. Gold!

 

And then karma and the fetters will shape your 5 Elements makeup, Ba Zi chart and the quality of your pre-natal Jing.

 

 

About your personality:

 

Why should a butterfly remember it was a caterpillar? Or better: everything is impermanent, including your personality and more so after death, since you'll be starting a new cycle (akin to the butterfly life cycle).

 

2. Wisdom accumulated and level compassion learnt also remain (both stored in the heart!)

 

 

It all makes sense, doesn't it.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2015 by Gerard