Riding the Phoenix to Penglai

[quantumdragon]

Everything Opendao is saying and generously making clearer on this forum for a long time already you can find it written black on white in the Nei Dan scriptures of different branches and offshoots issued from the Huang-Lao and Zhong-Lu traditions (please correct if this is not accurate).

 

The fundamental texts are very clear about the nature of the alchemical ingredients and in the later texts of authentic Nei Dan schools there is no discrepancies about it.

 

The arguments comes because of what Opendao rightly outlined.

 

 

False schools and teachers mislead naive, lazy, impatient and self-deluded people but with a good and objective theoretical understanding there can be no doubts and it's easy to recognize true teachings from the false ones at the first sight.

 

In these random examples amongst hundreds of others, you can see that there is no differences:

 

Introduction to the 400 words on the Golden Elixir by Zhang Boduan:

 

炼精者，炼元精，非淫泆之精

 

 "Refining Jing is to refine the Original Jing, not the essence of lascivious pleasures"

 

Direct instructions for the Great Elixir by Qiu Chuji:

 

三宝者，精、气、神也。精，先天一点元阳也

 

" The three treasures, Jing, Qi and Shen. Jing, it is a bit or pre-heavenly Original Yang."

 

The heart seal scripture by the August Jade Emperor:

 

上药三品，神与气精，恍恍惚惚，杳杳冥冥。

 

"The superior medecine has three ingredients, Shen with Qi and Jing, indistinct and dim, mysterious and deep."

 

That means that the ingredients to make Dan are of a Original, Xian Tian, pre-natal, pre-heavenly nature and not of a Hou Tian, post-natal, post-heavenly nature whether it be for men or women and that's all.

I cannot read Chinese : ( For some reason your links are not working so I cannot read what you are referring to. I realize you are frustrated somewhat by what Opendao has said is a lack of result in your experience during practice attempting to simulate female orgasm and inseminating yourself with  sperm to bladder. I do not know anything about male practices and the great wisdom that exist in male  Phallus or External . I have heard  from advanced practitioners whose double I have personally seen and talked to that there is drawing up the external Kidneys of the male inside the body. I have no personal knowledge of what this  is for. I assume it is to bring the seed bearing organ in closer to  the dan anatomy  of the  male practitioner as part of simulating  birthing capacity. But I could be WAY off on this. I only  speak from my personal experience. I cannot say the steps of how an male accomplishes what has been done before him by many  accomplished male masters.  I also would never use my  other eyes  to spy on  a  males practice. Only when they violate the  Laws and show themselves to me do I see what they offer. In Opendao's case I  am left to  my personal experience. The advanced  practitioner with whom I have had many conversations , Companion was perfectly formed. It looked just like the real living man. The Adept  Sun Bu-er describes this in Poem 13.

Outside the body one see another, duplicate, body,

not produced by magic or  sleight - of - hand.

The spiritual Qi is so flexible and accomodating,

vividly alive, one primary spirit.

The bright moon solidifies the gold liquid,

the blue lotus refines the genuine jade.

partial poem  page 81 Riding the Phoenix to Pengali.

 

Does this sound dark, murky or mysterious?

No.  

[quantumdragon]

I would never expected such a course in a thread.

So, now Opendao is not even a human being...hmmm.

It reminds me to the accusations made by Flowing Hands against TaiShanMen guys, it seems that when someone with psychic development feels upset s/he projects his fears like an black magic attack. It is not unusual, it happens a lot.

 

Going to the preheaven post heaven thing, I was surprised in reading transforming post-natal essence in pre-natal qi. There is the saying that we need bamboo to repair a window made of bamboo, and no other substance could be used. And even beizong people cites a lot Zhang Boduan saying that if it has form you must not use it.

Do not mistake my assessment of Opendoa's energetic anatomy. with your body memory( postnatal stored emotions)  of another event not remotely related to my experience. I do not fear Opendao in the least.  He came to me. In  the best  "psychic form"  he could muster. I  was born with what many call " psychic capacities"  . I personally do not use this term because it implies special ability which  the natural human does not posses My experience is all humans have this as part of their organ system of perception. I have trained Ordinary  humans how to  open this Aperture before I began Eastern Internal Alchemy.  I have spent many decades refining this natural human capacity. Including but not limited to how to view my internal organs, what is called  by western science sub atomic  structure and the vast reaches of what we all agree with our ordinary eyes as the Universe. In Eastern Internal Alchemy I have learned to use this natural aspect of the human design to direct a variety of firings , circulations, etc. It is a wonderful tool, just as  is the intellectual mind but it is just another tool nothing more or less wonderous than the Liver or the Small Intestine for example. 

[opendao]

Xuanming I would like to offer an energetic assessment of Opendao. He has made many claims about his training. I cannot verify the authenticity of the Linage that instruct him or better his relationship with and his understanding of  the Great Patriarch's Teachings. As alway I must speak from my person experience. Yesterday after my post from the female perspective Opendao takes the  inappropriate out of harmony liberty of attempting to come to my home in this world and penetrate my  energetic/physical body to check out this  secret I discussed.  I felt his intention was from a unrefined reproductive energy which  means to me  that no  Opendao has not begun the  beginning steps of firing , purifying or bathing.  He is operating from conditioning at an extremely primitive instinctual level. I intend no disrespect to Opendao. I make the assumption since he came to me he wanted my assistance and  put himself  in full view of my other sight beyond the  human eyes.  What I saw was very interesting. 

First I thought his choice of entrance into my home was odd. Why would a spirit being come in through the toilet plumbing?  Why not just  click on me  show sefl to my mind screen and ask for a talk? Toilet very poor choice of coming into house for a spirit ,  this show much about how opendao does not understand the difference between what is waste and what is pure.

 

The virtue-De starts with sincerity and ability to keep silence - then you can listen.

 

So stop LYING.

 

Just for the record, in our school "astral travelling" is not used. If you get visitors from your toilet, call a plumber or go to a doctor.

 

But it's not a nice idea to accuse me in any interest to your "yin female organ secrets": I'm more than happy with the knowledge about "psychic disabilities" I already got on this forum.

 

Is it clear or you need a more complete characteristic of your symptoms, lying lady?

[opendao]

 

It sounds that Opendao is great Neidan master. And your above statement is fascinating.

 

It would be great to hear your philosophy and methods regarding how did you make such conclusion. 

1. Is it from your pre-heaven expression or post-heaven studies?  
2. Do you have any evidence and references about your statement?  
3. What kind of Neidan classics and scriptures have you studied so far?
4. Which level of Neidan cultivation you have completed?  
5. Can you share some of your Neidan cultivation experience?  
6. Have you experienced the spiritual Pivot within?
7. Have you seen the flight of golden sparks?  
8. Do you know that some individuals have experiential understanding and realization about Yuan QI / Preheaven / Primordial / Authentic / Original through Qigong practice?  

 

The concept of Xiantian (preheaven) and Houtian (postheaven) is a corner stone of Neidan. I just repeat basics I've learnt from my Teachers, and all such things can be supported by classic texts, starting with Dao De Jing or Yijing. It's not something somebody has to believe, it is something students have to experience in their life and practice. Wu-Liu Pai and Yuxianpai both provide all necessary methods, books, teaching, learning environment (special places) , meeting enlightened Masters and more to achieve the highest possible result for people of different abilities, young and old, men and women.

 

We need extraordinary efforts to prove extraordinary things and bring them to life.

[quantumdragon]

The virtue-De starts with sincerity and ability to keep silence - then you can listen.

 

So stop LYING.

 

Just for the record, in our school "astral travelling" is not used. If you get visitors from your toilet, call a plumber or go to a doctor.

 

But it's not a nice idea to accuse me in any interest to your "yin female organ secrets": I'm more than happy with the knowledge about "psychic disabilities" I already got on this forum.

 

Is it clear or you need a more complete characteristic of your symptoms, lying lady?

I see. You are not trained to do what you did.And you are not conscious of your activities when you do these  things.   That makes much more sense. I could not imagine anyone with  the skill set you claim to have  would purposely travel in such a vulnerable state.  I am new to your symbolic  language.   I was using the term ghost to describe the phenomenon I experience when I see a particular conditions in someone's energetic anatomy. I do not  call this kind of activity astral travel per say. Often ordinary people with no training at all can do this unconsciously with great risk to themselves. I hope you learn to keep youself safe at home in your body. 

Sun Bu-er Poem 1 Recalling the Mind line 5 and 6.

-the Master key is holding the mind within. 

Relax the Mind in the spirit's home,

a void the size of a half grain of millet,

and  reside spontaneously there in warmth. 

Do you know where your mind is? No. It was here in my home and you did not know it.  The first step in having  sufficient fire for more advanced practice is  recalling the Mind's fire. and  to stay in the Spirit's home. Do you know the  physical/ energetic anatomic location of  your spirit's home in your body? Clue...it is the first earth gate beginning transformational location in the Yellow Lady area before the  "clay pot" about  4 cun above the clay pot and  5 cun below Ren 17. This gate is not open or  energetically available to your conscious mind and has not been trained by your school. How is it this is true? Qi alone strong or weak has no real bearing on the firing process. You do have some Qi and unrefined Jing. Your shen is not happy as it does not have a safe home. Make a home for the One Qi. Then you will not be so hysterical or afraid.  

[Daeluin]

quantumdragon, it sounds like you have experience and skill with this sort of thing - but are you clearly certain it was opendao and not another? And are you certain you were seeing all? I recall the chapter in Zhuangzi where the master shows the seer different parts of himself, and the seer gets caught up in what is seen, each time making a different pronouncement, as each time the master shows a different extraordinary vessel, perhaps. I don't mean to say I don't believe you, just that I've come to learn to be careful thinking that what I see is truly everything.

 

In any case, the whole qigong vs neidan / prenatal vs postnatal thing tickles my sense that something is off. The Zhong Lu Chuan Dao Ji goes into quite some detail on working with the organs, and Wang Lipings book of methodology based on Ling Bao Bi Fa, Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu clearly emphasizes the practice of cycling the organ qi using the principles of the five elements.

 

So... Liu Yiming says that the organs themselves are just sediments, and perhaps we could say this means to not work with the postnatal. And yet, Liu Yiming clearly and extensively details how the operation of the five phases can be used to transform the postnatal into the prenatal. For internal alchemy, it seems to paint a clear picture that by using the five phase operation of the organ qi, we can work towards bridging the gap between the postnatal and the prenatal, and leading the postnatal manifestations back to the prenatal.

 

Certainly, to repair bamboo, use bamboo. But... that broken bamboo, resting upon the ground, decays, returning to the soil, and new bamboo uses those nutrients to grow. In this way the broken bamboo creates new bamboo. Denying the relationship between postnatal and prenatal, saying it can only work one way, saying we can only use the prenatal, seems to fly in the face of what we see happen in nature all the time. Death creates life, the old becomes new, again and again.

 

It is nice to have fresh new minds join us here, and I hope you will not be scared off by opendao's militant attitude. You are not the first to find this lack of virtuous comportment odd for one as educated in these arts as he appears to be. The "neidan vs qigong" thread discussed these themes a bit, and another thread that landed in the pit. opendao explained to me that the reason for his militant attitude is related to the principles of wen and wu, which we briefly discussed here.

 

Personally, if you ever find my spirit wandering about your home, I would like to appologize in advance. I've found that the more I get in my mind studying these things, the less I tend to cultivate, alas, and that leads to jing imbalances, past momentums, etc, etc. Eventually I would like the present moment to more consistently reflect the truth of who I am rather than the latest up or down, but alas I am not there quite yet.

[quantumdragon]

quantumdragon, it sounds like you have experience and skill with this sort of thing - but are you clearly certain it was opendao and not another? And are you certain you were seeing all? I recall the chapter in Zhuangzi where the master shows the seer different parts of himself, and the seer gets caught up in what is seen, each time making a different pronouncement, as each time the master shows a different extraordinary vessel, perhaps. I don't mean to say I don't believe you, just that I've come to learn to be careful thinking that what I see is truly everything.

 

In any case, the whole qigong vs neidan / prenatal vs postnatal thing tickles my sense that something is off. The Zhong Lu Chuan Dao Ji goes into quite some detail on working with the organs, and Wang Lipings book of methodology based on Ling Bao Bi Fa, Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu clearly emphasizes the practice of cycling the organ qi using the principles of the five elements.

 

So... Liu Yiming says that the organs themselves are just sediments, and perhaps we could say this means to not work with the postnatal. And yet, Liu Yiming clearly and extensively details how the operation of the five phases can be used to transform the postnatal into the prenatal. For internal alchemy, it seems to paint a clear picture that by using the five phase operation of the organ qi, we can work towards bridging the gap between the postnatal and the prenatal, and leading the postnatal manifestations back to the prenatal.

 

Certainly, to repair bamboo, use bamboo. But... that broken bamboo, resting upon the ground, decays, returning to the soil, and new bamboo uses those nutrients to grow. In this way the broken bamboo creates new bamboo. Denying the relationship between postnatal and prenatal, saying it can only work one way, saying we can only use the prenatal, seems to fly in the face of what we see happen in nature all the time. Death creates life, the old becomes new, again and again.

 

It is nice to have fresh new minds join us here, and I hope you will not be scared off by opendao's militant attitude. You are not the first to find this lack of virtuous comportment odd for one as educated in these arts as he appears to be. The "neidan vs qigong" thread discussed these themes a bit, and another thread that landed in the pit. opendao explained to me that the reason for his militant attitude is related to the principles of wen and wu, which we briefly discussed here.

 

Personally, if you ever find my spirit wandering about your home, I would like to appologize in advance. I've found that the more I get in my mind studying these things, the less I tend to cultivate, alas, and that leads to jing imbalances, past momentums, etc, etc. Eventually I would like the present moment to more consistently reflect the truth of who I am rather than the latest up or down, but alas I am not there quite yet.

Oh my you are a refreshing voice on this thread. You feel like a refreshing wind. Unfortunately, I am certain  the creature in my living room was Opendao.This type of identification is as easy as  determining if I am looking at a  fly or a bee.  It is not the first time members of his school have come to scan me.  My first contact with the  "mother school" in Russia was about 2.5 years ago. I awakened in the middle of the night  to two men scanning me. Their technique was a bit more sophisticated than Opendao's  unformed method of travel.  This was more military style Remote viewing in which a tasker, or controler send a viewer to a specific ingress locations  and the  two markdown, so to speak, the target for a download of information. In this instance they were seeking detail about the  school I attend. When I looked at them and began to download their information they  exited very quickly.  Opendao has the most  primitive i execution of the bunch. "lack of virtuous comportment odd for one as educated in these arts as he appears( I would remove appears to be and  say what he boast) to be"

 I do not claim I know everything about this unseen world how could I see all that exist in eternity? . I have considerable practice recognizing energy signatures. I have trained professionals, Forensic Accountants , Chiropractors, Law Enforcement etc. to use this very natural ability. 

I would agree this debate over  which method is the right method is really quite silly.I seems contrary to authentic teaching which tells us to  be beyond success or failure.  Instead of copy paste scriptures and beat each other up about copy pasted theoretical knowledge/ info why not cooperate and collaborate. Share personal experience...you know actual result in a first person authentic voice? Be vulnerable show your truth. How else can we learn how to learn. I was not born a scripture in some book. I really do not read much. I go to class I receive the teaching/ transmission then I practice. for me this is the real education what I learn in practice and how it changes me to be in harmony with natural law. I too have  a long way to go. I am  no adept just a student on the delightful path. Good to meet such a refreshing breath as you. 

[Daeluin]

Thank you for the elaboration. I can't say I am surprised. I know that my posting here has influenced my cultivation via the interaction with others, likely on several layers. Others have expressed and shared encounters as well. I can simply trust that we are being led to the encounters that will help us to grow in the ways that we need to, and that our sincerity will protect us from harm.

 

I'm not a fan of absolute right or wrong views. I am a fan of investigating principle, but too much of this can create energetic imbalance. Metal should be balanced with Wood, or it can create stiffness. I feel the principle we've been discussing is important, for it may be the key differentiating the degree of which one is able to transform the physical body as well as the spiritual body. I have experienced many transformations, some perhaps on a higher level, but do not feel I have worked with my organs much, at least not directly. So I feel it is possible to follow a path that leads to a destination, but more difficult to determine what that destination will be (at least for my level of clarity), and that has caused me to go into this studying phase again, following the tug of my heart. I tend to feel that the destination we are led to when following our natural way will lead us to the right destination for us, and that this is likely different for everyone. Some of us may be best served by a more spiritual destination, others perhaps another go 'round, and others perhaps the root. I merely speculate, but the time I've spent here investigating principle has paid off, and the sense I had cautioning me from jumping in too strongly before is fading, and the path my heart resonates with has become more clear. I am feeling much more ready to jump in.

 

I agree it would be refreshing and potentially beneficial to share more personal experiences here. I think the issue is the confusion this can lead to. Different methods can produce different results, and without proper clear descriptions one thing can be mistook for another. So it can be safer to simply lead others to follow principle, and use their grasp of principle to translate to growth in their own personal experience. That said, when I have a clear connection between my understanding of a principle and the feeling of a manifestation in the alchemical work, I feel it is safer to share an experience without the risk of misleading someone. But these are early days for me. I imagine more interesting conversations will unfold as we learn to better help each other.

[opendao]

It is nice to have fresh new minds join us here, and I hope you will not be scared off by opendao's militant attitude. You are not the first to find this lack of virtuous comportment odd for one as educated in these arts as he appears to be. The "neidan vs qigong" thread discussed these themes a bit, and another thread that landed in the pit. opendao explained to me that the reason for his militant attitude is related to the principles of wen and wu, which we briefly discussed here.

 

Personally, if you ever find my spirit wandering about your home, I would like to appologize in advance. I've found that the more I get in my mind studying these things, the less I tend to cultivate, alas, and that leads to jing imbalances, past momentums, etc, etc. Eventually I would like the present moment to more consistently reflect the truth of who I am rather than the latest up or down, but alas I am not there quite yet.

 

Taobums is a really crazy place, and the amount of mental ill people is tremendous, but you Daeluin... Well, now you deserve, and I tell you: you focus on "militant attitude", but basically all you're doing is just to escape the fact you don't know what the real method of alchemy is all about. You had a chance to search and find, but you decided not to use your chance, but keep going in circles from one book to another. Your choice, your path. So usual in the modern world to accuse others and do nothing... The truth you're trying to hide from is very simple: all Qigong exercises you know and practice have no relation to Neidan and to the process of creating the Elixir, based on San Bao: 3 preheaven jewels.

[damdao]

Certainly, to repair bamboo, use bamboo. But... that broken bamboo, resting upon the ground, decays, returning to the soil, and new bamboo uses those nutrients to grow. In this way the broken bamboo creates new bamboo. Denying the relationship between postnatal and prenatal, saying it can only work one way, saying we can only use the prenatal, seems to fly in the face of what we see happen in nature all the time. Death creates life, the old becomes new, again and again.

 

I am not saying that post-natal cannot be used, but I think that the saying on the bamboo is in order to not over-sexualize and over-corporealize (if such words exist in English, but I doubt it) the practice. And this was discussed earlier too. And to be fair, I think that in those discussions the concepts pointed out (and clues made) by Opendao were far better and deeper than the ones of the Zhao Bichen's followers with all their sexual wording and focus.

I will read those chapters by Liu Yiming in order to begin a dialogue and bring the bamboo text to discuss it. 

And please, lets get out of the psychic terrain, it is an accumulation of accusations without end.

[opendao]

Oh my you are a refreshing voice on this thread. You feel like a refreshing wind. Unfortunately, I am certain  the creature in my living room was Opendao.This type of identification is as easy as  determining if I am looking at a  fly or a bee.  It is not the first time members of his school have come to scan me.  My first contact with the  "mother school" in Russia was about 2.5 years ago. I awakened in the middle of the night  to two men scanning me. Their technique was a bit more sophisticated than Opendao's  unformed method of travel.  This was more military style

 

funny lying lady ))) Tell us how did I look like: tall, handsome, with white beard, right?     

[Daeluin]

Taobums is a really crazy place, and the amount of mental ill people is tremendous, but you Daeluin... Well, now you deserve, and I tell you: you focus on "militant attitude", but basically all you're doing is just to escape the fact you don't know what the real method of alchemy is all about. You had a chance to search and find, but you decided not to use your chance, but keep going in circles from one book to another. Your choice, your path. So usual in the modern world to accuse others and do nothing... The truth you're trying to hide from is very simple: all Qigong exercises you know and practice have no relation to Neidan and to the process of creating the Elixir, based on San Bao: 3 preheaven jewels.

 

Well the militant thing I got from my last conversation with you, where you shared why you are like that. My apologies if I am projecting something onto you that you did not express yourself.

 

On the other hand when you tell me what I'm doing, it is your projection onto me. I try to be very careful about what I say I know, and I am not trying to make any claims here, and am certainly not looking for your validation. I add clarity where I have clarity to add, nothing more.

 

You seem to have a lot to say about who I am, what my practice is, what I am hiding from, etc, that I have not discussed here. I have not invited your critique, and do not intend to critique you. I was hoping to help quantumdragon gain insight from our past dialogue about your approach to de, and so avoid some unnecessary back and forth as has happened in other threads. As for the topic of visits, I don't know what actually happened, and have made no accusations: I am simply not surprised, for I know this is something that happens around here. Just in general I would hope others would have the respect to not visit without explicit invitations. Thanks.

[opendao]

Well the militant thing I got from my last conversation with you, where you shared why you are like that. My apologies if I am projecting something onto you that you did not express yourself.

 

nice twist, but no, if you validate others then be ready to be hit back. And you criticize even if you don't mention it. 

 

On the other hand when you tell me what I'm doing, it is your projection onto me. I try to be very careful about what I say I know, and I am not trying to make any claims here, and am certainly not looking for your validation. I add clarity where I have clarity to add, nothing more.

 

it's just a mere conclusion from what you're saying. If your "careful" words are full of mistakes, then it's not "my projection", but you as you are. 

 

You seem to have a lot to say about who I am, what my practice is, what I am hiding from, etc, that I have not discussed here. I have not invited your critique, and do not intend to critique you. I was hoping to help quantumdragon gain insight from our past dialogue about your approach to de, and so avoid some unnecessary back and forth as has happened in other threads.

 

Reread your own posts here and admit that the intentions were very different.

 

As for the topic of visits, I don't know what actually happened, and have made no accusations: I am simply not surprised, for I know this is something that happens around here. Just in general I would hope others would have the respect to not visit without explicit invitations. Thanks.

 

No comments. Just totally insane. 

Edited August 17, 2015 by opendao

[opendao]

I am not saying that post-natal cannot be used, but I think that the saying on the bamboo is in order to not over-sexualize and over-corporealize (if such words exist in English, but I doubt it) the practice. And this was discussed earlier too. And to be fair, I think that in those discussions the concepts pointed out (and clues made) by Opendao were far better and deeper than the ones of the Zhao Bichen's followers with all their sexual wording and focus.

I will read those chapters by Liu Yiming in order to begin a dialogue and bring the bamboo text to discuss it. 

And please, lets get out of the psychic terrain, it is an accumulation of accusations without end.

 

The idea about bamboo is simple: we need to use the material of the same kind to fix another broken material. To replenish wasted yuan jing we need yuan jing. That's what Daeluin & co don't get:

 

 "For internal alchemy, it seems to paint a clear picture that by using the five phase operation of the organ qi, we can work towards bridging the gap between the postnatal and the prenatal, and leading the postnatal manifestations back to the prenatal."

 

That's just wrong, and the Teacher of Single Yang explained it in details. As well as many other masters.

[Xuanming]

Quantumdragon, on 16 Aug 2015 - 07:50 AM, said:

 

Xuanming I would like to offer an energetic assessment of Opendao. He has made many claims about his training. I cannot verify the authenticity of the Linage that instruct him or better his relationship with and his understanding of the Great Patriarch's Teachings. 

 

Thank you for offering your energetic assessment of Opendao and for providing some of his pre-heaven information.  I am impressed with your assessment and observations.  They are very insightful and helpful. I observed Opendao’s energetic system last night, and I agree with you that Opendao has not begun the beginning steps of firing, purifying or bathing. And he has not activated any of his organ systems at all.  So there are big gaps between your internal cultivation and his Neidan/pre-heaven cultivation.  I don’t think that he can understand your experience and energetic assessment on his energy and pre-heaven information.  He is not happy to see that you can not only read his energy system but also you can read his pre-heaven information.  

 

Opendao appears smart and intelligent and a great Neidan master. Opendao claims that he works with Neidan, works with Yuan QI / Preheaven / Primordial / Authentic / Original NOT postnatal existence. But the reality is that he knows how to find postnatal knowledge and information, copy and paste, but he has not realized himself yet, he cannot speak from his own internal experience with his own realization, and he even does not know where his mind is and he is not aware of his subconscious and internal organ conscious conditioning.  Quantumdragon is right that at this point, only post heaven is ruling Opendao’s body. 

 

Opendao appears a great Neidan master.  He claims to know Yuan Jing, Yuan QI / Preheaven / Primordial / Authentic / Original, but he does not know the relationships between post-heaven and pre-heaven and does not know how to transform post-heaven energy to serve the pre-heaven’s needs.

 

Quantumdragon has already experienced and demonstrated the process of postnatal energy transformation to prenatal energy and then to work on the internal elixir cultivation as the follows:

 

 

Quantumdragon Posted 02 August 2015 - 07:18 PM

 …the  qi like  bread rocking like a baby in a cradle  the energy between the  lower dantien, the jade pillow area , the front of the  forehead and the  sacrum. My arms may move with the hand, wrist and elbow positions changing to direct the qi. Then the pelvic floor opens and I bend my knees up and down kneading and the energy decedents out from the pelvic floor to the earth. I may stand with this flow of energy for up to an hour or until it naturally shift. When it returns from the earth it goes straight up the center of my body in front of the spine out the to of my head this energy feels light and cooler but still warm. While this circulation is occurring the energy in the sacrum becomes very hot and starts pumping qi up the du meridian and down the ren the lower dantien then begins to spin like a gyroscope condensing.

 

This is an excellent example of postnatal energy transformation. 

 

 

Quantumdragon Posted 01 August 2015 - 06:50 AM

For me taming the dragon was not taming in the literal sense at all. It felt like the water dragon of the deep ocean in my human body with all of its reproductive earthly human mandate-produce/procreate or die trying was gently introduced to another type of dragon from   the heavenly oceans. Over the course of many classes and hours of personal practice this Yin earthly ocean dragon mated with the Yang heavenly ocean dragon. The female water dragon fulfilled her mandate to procreate and the Male winged heavenly Dragon fulfilled his mandate to assist the earth immortal Yin dragon to have a child. Together they raise this child dragon hybrid that lives in heaven and on earth simultaneously.  Since both Dragon are immortal and what is born is immortal. It feels like Ultimate Yin and Ultimate Yang become good parents to this immortal living child inside my body, feeding, caring and fostering with discipline and limitless wisdom their creation.

 

In the traditional way, this process was described as Dragon and Tiger Mating.  This is another example of prenatal energy interactions during your internal cultivation and Qigong practice.  Your expression of this internal alchemical cultivation is authentic, original and elegant!  You don’t need to use other people’s words, your authentic expression is great.  Be confident! 

 

Opendao, on 15 Aug 2015 - 08:30 PM, said:

 

 …Qigong works with Postheaven Qi, Neidan works with Yuan QI / Preheaven / Primordial / Authentic / Original.

 

Quantumdragon practices Qigong with pre-heaven / Primordial / Authentic Qi experience and Opendao works with Yuan QI / Preheaven / Primordial / Authentic / Original but trapped in post-heaven.  This is very amusing. 

Edited August 17, 2015 by Xuanming

[opendao]

Quantumdragon practices Qigong with pre-heaven / Primordial / Authentic Qi experience and Opendao works with Yuan QI / Preheaven / Primordial / Authentic / Original but trapped in post-heaven.  This is very amusing. 

 

yes, if you take this quantum shit and puppet show thread seriously.

5 lying ladies in one place, speaking crap about Dao, that's really amusing for the Daoist forum. Shame and nothing sacred.

Edited August 17, 2015 by opendao

[Daeluin]

The idea about bamboo is simple: we need to use the material of the same kind to fix another broken material. To replenish wasted yuan jing we need yuan jing. That's what Daeluin & co don't get:

 

I don't disagree with this at all. I'm just saying there is a connection between the post-celestial work and the pre-celestial work, and that post-celestial methods can benefit and may even be recommended for nourishing the pre-celestial.

 

 "For internal alchemy, it seems to paint a clear picture that by using the five phase operation of the organ qi, we can work towards bridging the gap between the postnatal and the prenatal, and leading the postnatal manifestations back to the prenatal."

 

That's just wrong, and the Teacher of Single Yang explained it in details. As well as many other masters.

 

Here's a chapter titled Post Celestial Methods from Eva Wong's translation of daojiantan:

 

Post-celestial methods are typically used in the early stages of foundation building. Some post-celestial methods are viable and some are not. Strictly speaking, those that are not viable are not considered post-celestial methods at all. They are too yin, too questionable, and are not worth mentioning. There are four post-celestial methods that I believe are legitimate. I shall call them the post-celestial, the pre-celestial within the post-celestial, and pre-celestial, and the pre-celestial within the pre-celestial procedures.

 

The post-celestial procedure works with the vapor of the yin bridge, which is the root of procreation. When this vapor stirs, it is manifested as primordial generative energy. If the practitioner can rouse it and direct it into the internal cauldron, generative energy will be transmuted into vital energy, and the gates and the One cavity will open.

 

The procedure of the pre-celestial within the post-celestial is concerned with routing the vapor to the five viscera, where it will spread to bathe and heat the bones. Circulating through the meridians, the vapor will finally return to the dantien. When the vapor has returned to the dantien, it is time to focus the spirit, regulate the breath, and wait patiently for the mechanism of the waterwheel to move. When the waterwheel starts, you will hear a whistling sound. Immediately after this, the vapor will shoot to the top of the head. All these processes are associated with the procedure of the pre-celestial within the post-celestial.

 

...

 

The ten celestial stems are encoded within the twelve earthly branches; what is earthly can always transform into the celestial again, if we know the way. I may not know every way, but I'm not foolish enough to believe there is only one way. I'm content to search until I find what works for me, and let others do the same for themselves, offering what help I can along the way.

[opendao]

The ten celestial stems are encoded within the twelve earthly branches; what is earthly can always transform into the celestial again, if we know the way. I may not know every way, but I'm not foolish enough to believe there is only one way. I'm content to search until I find what works for me, and let others do the same for themselves, offering what help I can along the way.

 

Amen. But so far I haven't heard about any way that can return houtian to xiantian state. The celestial mechanism used in Neidan is different and built on different principles, they work solely in xiantian.

 

Sure Neidan affects houtian, and Qigong can affect xiantian by spending it more or by reducing the leakage, but Qigong, as a postheaven practice, can't restore xiantian jing and that the real Obstacle. I would love to see this understanding in people, because it can save many dozen years of researches and necessity to be lost on side routes...

[Xuanming]

Cheya Posted 11 July 2015 - 11:43 AM, Said:

 

Has anybody read the book? Comments?

 

Opendao, are you aware of this Forum is for discussing about Riding the Phoenix to Penglai?  You have not read the book yet.  It appears that you do not understand Ms. Gonet’s commentary and do not understand Sun Bu-Er’s teaching and you do not know Ma Dan-Yang’s teaching.  Why you are here to disturb others’ discussion and conversations in this Forum?  What is your motivation at this Forum? Is it just for selling yourself as a Neidan master with your advertising?

 

Opendao, on 16 Aug 2015 - 08:48 PM, said:

 

5 lying ladies in one place, speaking crap about Dao, that's really amusing for the Daoist forum.  Shame and nothing sacred. 

 

This Forum is for discussing about Riding the Phoenix to Penglai and for talking about female internal cultivation.  Do you know that your attitude and behavior are so arrogant, rude, disrespectful, forceful, abusive, and invasive to women? Do these kinds of attitude and behavior of yours come from your Neidan training?  Or are these kinds of attitude and behavior the unique De expressions of your Yu Xian Pain school? 

 

Sometimes, Opendao appears smart and intelligent and a great Neidan master.  If you want to sell yourself as a Neidan master and expert, it would be great if you can prove it first.  You have not answered my questions yet.  I might have asked you too many questions last time.  Let’s make it simple and easy for you.  This time I only ask you the following three questions:

1. Have you experienced the spiritual Pivot within? If yes, please give an example and be specific. 
2. Have you seen the flight of golden sparks?  If yes, please give an example and be specific. 
3. Which level of Neidan cultivation you have completed?  Any certificate or evidence? 

 

You said that the ladies in this Forum are lying.  Can you give more specific examples?  For example, Quantumdragon, on 16 Aug 2015 - 07:50 AM, said: Opendao has not begun the beginning steps of firing, purifying or bathing. And he has not activated any of his organ systems at all.  Is this true or not true?  If this is not true, please give evidence to prove it.    

 

 

Daeluin, on 16 Aug 2015 - 05:04 PM, said:

 

In any case, the whole qigong vs neidan / prenatal vs postnatal thing tickles my sense that something is off. The Zhong Lu Chuan Dao Ji goes into quite some detail on working with the organs…

 

So... Liu Yiming says that the organs themselves are just sediments, and perhaps we could say this means to not work with the postnatal. And yet, Liu Yiming clearly and extensively details how the operation of the five phases can be used to transform the postnatal into the prenatal. For internal alchemy, it seems to paint a clear picture that by using the five phase operation of the organ qi, we can work towards bridging the gap between the postnatal and the prenatal, and leading the postnatal manifestations back to the prenatal.  

 

Daeluin, thank you so much for providing such helpful information.  I agree.  

 

The authors of Zhong Lu Chuan Dao Ji are Zhongli Quan and Lü Dongbin.  Lü Dongbin is Wang Chongyang’s teacher; and Wang Chongyang is Ma Danyang’s teacher.  Ma Danyang is the founder of Yu Xian Pai.  Above masters all know how to use the five phases operation of the organ qi to transform the postnatal into the prenatal.  My internal elixir cultivation teacher knows it.  In Qigong practice, there is a method called “五炁朝元法” which also can be used to transform the postnatal into the prenatal.  My Qigong teacher knows how to do it. 

 

However, Opendao does not know how to use the five phases operation of the organ qi to transform the postnatal into the prenatal, which indicates that Opendao does not know Ma Danyang , the founder’s teaching and there is no direct transmission to Opendao.  

 

Quantumdragon said that she cannot verify the authenticity of the Linage that instructs him (Opendao) or better his relationship with and his understanding of the Great Patriarch's Teachings.  Is this true or not true?  If this is not true, please give evidence to prove it.    

Edited August 17, 2015 by Xuanming

[opendao]

Quantumdragon said that she cannot verify the authenticity of the Linage that instructs him (Opendao) or better his relationship with and his understanding of the Great Patriarch's Teachings.  Is this true or not true?  If this is not true, please give evidence to prove it.    

 

Darling, it seems you completely lost track and don't see the reality any more. What the evidences somebody can provide to prove the words of anonymous whoever that she CANNOT verify someone's lineage throughout her toilet inspired dreams? Obviously, she cannot.

 

Are you freaking serious people have to even read this insane rubbish from a person who has attained nothing but obviously sick entirely? This thread is about the book and female alchemy, so stop trolling your favourite topic and spread lies all around.

 

Transform sexual jing to preheaven, disregard the words of sages, but don't tell us you are the only source of truth and everybody have to buy some fantasy book for 19.95 to be able to discuss with you.

 

So far you showed no more understanding then Taoist Texts, who you criticized so heavily, and quantumdragon praised as crazy. It's all in this thread. And you think somebody can respect you both after all your lies and mistakes? Create another clone and discuss your "yin secrets" in personal messages. It's a public forum and people here have rights to know the truth, and I have my rights to protect my good name and the name of the School against insults without any arguments.

 

Chao, hoping not to discuss anything with you and your multiple clones again. Say hello to Ms Gonets, I hope to look into her eyes one day, to confirm my intuition about her role in all this puppet show. It seems your continuous attempts to advertise lead to an opposite result.

[opendao]

The authors of Zhong Lu Chuan Dao Ji are Zhongli Quan and Lü Dongbin.  Lü Dongbin is Wang Chongyang’s teacher; and Wang Chongyang is Ma Danyang’s teacher.  Ma Danyang is the founder of Yu Xian Pai.  Above masters all know how to use the five phases operation of the organ qi to transform the postnatal into the prenatal.  

 

Yes, all these Teachers really know how to use five phases "to return the oil and continue the fate".

 

But you simply don't know 

 

Because 5 phases don't transform postnatal to prenatal. It's a mistake that can be made only if you've never practised the real 5 phases techniques to return the yuan jing. Also, there are many sets, based on 5 phases, that don't lead to alchemy transformation, but prepare the body for the first stage or just improve someone's health (using postheaven qi). Qigong people love to confuse later with former, inflating their ego by an illusion they know the truth. The real experience of returning the yuan jing is absolutely different from what qigong people describe. And it's different from fantasies we read in this crazy topic. Attentive reader will find the true description in classic scriptures.

[Daeluin]

Liu Yiming, Cultivating the Tao, tl Pregadio:

 

 

 

Then there are the Ways of conquest within generation and of generation within conquest. Conquest within generation is the postcelestial Way of following the course. Generation within conquest is the precelestial Way of inverting the course.

 

If students are able to know generation and conquest, and to understand inverting and following the course, they can bring the principles of the five agents to achievement.

Which is just principle at the end of the chapter on the five phases. But in application, mutliple texts I refer to apply this principle to achieve the "reverted elixir", which is named for the way it is created - by taking the flow of the xiantian into houtian and reversing it so that the houtian returns to the xiantian.

 

 

What we call Small Reverted Elixir consists in returning from the postcelestial to the precelestial. Lead controls Mercury; Water is in accord with fire; the Lord of Metals couples with the Lovely Maid; the Black Tiger harnesses the Red Dragon; the Dark Turtle swallows the Vermilion Sparrow; and the "other house" controls "my house". You revert to that old thing in "my house," and return to the fundamental reality of "my house." Therefor this is the Way of reverting to the Origin, and for this reason it is called Reverted Elixir.

 

In any case, it would be nice for you to rest your opinion. You have made it very clear, and we appear to disagree.

[quantumdragon]

Darling, it seems you completely lost track and don't see the reality any more. What the evidences somebody can provide to prove the words of anonymous whoever that she CANNOT verify someone's lineage throughout her toilet inspired dreams? Obviously, she cannot.

 

Are you freaking serious people have to even read this insane rubbish from a person who has attained nothing but obviously sick entirely? This thread is about the book and female alchemy, so stop trolling your favourite topic and spread lies all around.

 

Transform sexual jing to preheaven, disregard the words of sages, but don't tell us you are the only source of truth and everybody have to buy some fantasy book for 19.95 to be able to discuss with you.

 

So far you showed no more understanding then Taoist Texts, who you criticized so heavily, and quantumdragon praised as crazy. It's all in this thread. And you think somebody can respect you both after all your lies and mistakes? Create another clone and discuss your "yin secrets" in personal messages. It's a public forum and people here have rights to know the truth, and I have my rights to protect my good name and the name of the School against insults without any arguments.

 

Chao, hoping not to discuss anything with you and your multiple clones again. Say hello to Ms Gonets, I hope to look into her eyes one day, to confirm my intuition about her role in all this puppet show. It seems your continuous attempts to advertise lead to an opposite result.

My goodness, Opendao shows  his postnatal state as a six year old  schoolyard bully reduced in  frustration to name calling and cursing.  I imagine if this were real life on the playground he would pull some  girls pigtails to make them cry. Well we here are not in the least  uncenter or intimidated by  you OD. And as for you great intuitive leap..... the MALE you just addressed as  Darling I have met in my  travels studying Taoism. Xuanming is a male definately no doubts there.  I assure you now with my regular eyes he is not Ms. Gonet. I have never met Ms. Gonet. I have seen a picture of her in one of her many publications. Jill Gonet is definitely a woman. Boooo! Yin Ghost we are not afraid of you. 

[opendao]

Which is just principle at the end of the chapter on the five phases. But in application, mutliple texts I refer to apply this principle to achieve the "reverted elixir", which is named for the way it is created - by taking the flow of the xiantian into houtian and reversing it so that the houtian returns to the xiantian.

 

In any case, it would be nice for you to rest your opinion. You have made it very clear, and we appear to disagree.

 

yes, obviously you didn't get what I tend to say by many direct words and indirect hints, and what texts clearly state. But I don't write it for you, I know you won't change your opinion. I write for others. 

[opendao]

My goodness, Opendao shows  his postnatal state as a six year old  schoolyard bully reduced in  frustration to name calling and cursing.  I imagine if this were real life on the playground he would pull some  girls pigtails to make them cry. Well we here are not in the least  uncenter or intimidated by  you OD. And as for you great intuitive leap..... the MALE you just addressed as  Darling I have met in my  travels studying Taoism. Xuanming is a male definately no doubts there.  I assure you now with my regular eyes he is not Ms. Gonet. I have never met Ms. Gonet. I have seen a picture of her in one of her many publications. Jill Gonet is definitely a woman. Boooo! Yin Ghost we are not afraid of you. 

 

go back to your playground,  nobody would believe a word you say, after all your insane fantasies about me, my visit to you (lie), and about our school scanning you (lie). I'd rather believe my intuition then to someone lying and hallucinating. And stop trolling the only topic you'd like to show off in.