Riding the Phoenix to Penglai

[opendao]

Yes, I agree, to the principle at least.

 

My point is that if we are sincere in cultivating to a higher level, we increasingly work toward letting go of examining and seeking. There are enough ripples already returning to us from our past seeking and examining - won't forcefully creating more just put off our achievement of a higher level?

 

if a person follows Dao as prescribed by his/her Teacher, there is no necessity to "work toward letting go of examining and seeking" or worry about "ripples". Same as karma, all that things will be dissolved in one perfect moment, just by doing proper methods. The more we think about how to behave "right", the more we behave "wrong". Because of the ShiShen. 

[Daeluin]

if a person follows Dao as prescribed by his/her Teacher, there is no necessity to "work toward letting go of examining and seeking" or worry about "ripples". Same as karma, all that things will be dissolved in one perfect moment, just by doing proper methods. The more we think about how to behave "right", the more we behave "wrong". Because of the ShiShen. 

 

Yes, I agree with this as well. It's funny how things just start to dissolve, and right and wrong just disappear.

[opendao]

If you understand people's nature as such, why do you respond to this nature in ways that will cause reactions that don't appear to be beneficial to them or yourself?

 

maybe it doesn't appear, but it is beneficial. If people are Yin, they need Yang to wake-up. And vice versa. That's how balance can appear in the society. It's Wen. But what kind of balance can be in a society, where evil people say that Yang is Yin and Yin is Yang? So to stop such people is also beneficial. It is Wu. When people's practice improves, it's beneficial for me as well.

 

I'm not really sure who is weak or not, and am not attached to absolutes anyway. Weak today, strong tomorrow.... who knows?

 

the reality knows very well: if weak, people decline, unfortunate and die, if strong - they flourish, auspicious and enter the sainthood. Very simple from the energy standpoint.

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Xuanming]

Opendao, on 18 Aug 2015 - 11:16 AM, said:

…your opinion has no any support nor in texts, nor in Tradition, nor in reality.  ...You disregard any scriptures which contradict your qigong experience...

 

Did you see emptiness in my opinion or just want to deny the realities in you someone pointed out?

 

I am so delighted to hear that you know my Qigong practice.  I thought that you practice Neidan only not practice Qigong.  I love to hear your critics and want to hear more about what is wrong in my Qigong practice.  Which scripture contradicts my Qigong experience?  I am also a Neidan practitioner.  What is wrong in my Neidan practice?  I would greatly appreciate your advice and suggestions.  Please let me know.  Thank you!   

Edited August 18, 2015 by Xuanming

[Daeluin]

maybe it doesn't appear, but it is beneficial. If people are Yin, they need Yang to wake-up. And vice versa. That's how balance can appear in the society. It's Wen. But what kind of balance can be in a society, where evil people say that Yang is Yin and Yin is Yang? So to stop such people is also beneficial. It is Wu. When people's practice improves, it's beneficial for me as well.

 

 

the reality knows very well: if weak, people decline, unfortunate and die, if strong - they flourish, auspicious and enter the sainthood. Very simple from the energy standpoint.

 

Robber Zhi saw Sages like Confucius preaching of virtues even as they helped to nurture the interests of kingdoms built upon unvirtuous actions. Robber Zhi's choice was to murder and pillage these kingdoms unconditionally, without harboring desire for fame or fortune. In this he saw and applied Wen, and when Confucious came to treat with him he applied Wu, explaining how the principles he acted upon were fair and just.

 

Zhuangzi uses this story in several places, one of which describes how those who attempt to change the world with good intentions may in fact be doing the opposite.

 

tl Legge:

In taking precautions against thieves who cut open satchels, search bags, and break open boxes, people are sure to cord and fasten them well, and to employ strong bonds and clasps; and in this they are ordinarily said to show their wisdom. When a great thief comes, however, he shoulders the box, lifts up the satchel, carries off the bag, and runs away with them, afraid only that the cords, bonds, and clasps may not be secure; and in this case what was called the wisdom (of the owners) proves to be nothing but a collecting of the things for the great thief. Let me try and set this matter forth. Do not those who are vulgarly called wise prove to be collectors for the great thieves? And do not those who are called sages prove to be but guardians in the interest of the great thieves?

 

How do I know that the case is so? Formerly, in the state of Qi, the neighbouring towns could see one another; their cocks and dogs never ceased to answer the crowing and barking of other cocks and dogs (between them). The nets were set (in the water and on the land); and the ploughs and hoes were employed over more than a space of two thousand li square. All within its four boundaries, the establishment of the ancestral temples and of the altars of the land and grain, and the ordering of the hamlets and houses, and of every corner in the districts, large, medium, and small, were in all particulars according to the rules of the sages. So it was; but yet one morning, Tian Cheng-zi killed the ruler of Qi, and stole his state. And was it only the state that he stole? Along with it he stole also the regulations of the sages and wise men (observed in it). And so, though he got the name of being a thief and a robber, yet he himself continued to live as securely as Yao and Shun had done. Small states did not dare to find fault with him; great states did not dare to take him off; for twelve generations (his descendants) have possessed the state of Qi. Thus do we not have a case in which not only did (the party) steal the state of Qi, but at the same time the regulations of its sages and wise men, which thereby served to guard the person of him, thief and robber as he was?

 

Let me try to set forth this subject (still further). Have not there been among those vulgarly styled the wisest, such as have collected (their wealth) for the great chief? And among those styled the most sage such as have guarded it for him? How do I know that it has been so? Formerly, Long-feng was beheaded; Bi-gan had his heart torn out; Chang Hong was ripped open; and Zi-xu was reduced to pulp (in the Chang). Worthy as those four men were, they did not escape such dreadful deaths.

 

The followers of the robber Zhi asked him, saying, 'Has the robber also any method or principle (in his proceedings)?' He replied, 'What profession is there which has not its principles? That the robber in his recklessness comes to the conclusion that there are valuable deposits in an apartment shows his sageness; that he is the first to enter it shows his bravery; that he is the last to quit it shows his righteousness; that he knows whether (the robbery) may be attempted or not shows his wisdom; and that he makes an equal division of the plunder shows his benevolence. Without all these five qualities no one in the world has ever attained to become a great robber.'

 

Looking at the subject in this way, we see that good men do not arise without having the principles of the sages, and that Zhi could not have pursued his course without the same principles. But the good men in the world are few, and those who are not good are many - it follows that the sages benefit the world in a few instances and injure it in many.

 

How are you to say if your sageness is benefiting the world or harming it? Rebels of oppressive regimes apply the principle of Wen to overcome their oppression. Is this good or bad? Terrorists arise in the same way, using the  principle of Wen as they deem use of forceful Yang necessary to shake the world out of its injustice. Is this good or bad? Does it lead to increased balance or imbalance?

 

tl Ziporyn:

What I call good is not Humanity and Responsibility, but just being good at your own Virtuosity. What I call good is certainly not what these people call Humanity and Responsibility! It is just fully allowing the uncontrived condition of your inborn nature and allotment of life to play itself out. What I call sharp hearing is not hearing others, but rather truly hearing yourself, nothing more. What I call sharp vision is not seeing others, but rather truly seeing yourself, nothing more. For to see others without seeing yourself, to gain some external thing without finding yourself, is to attain the success of others without attaining your own success, "to take comfort in the comfort of others but not in your own comfort." In taking their comfort as something external to themselves, Robber Zhi and Bo Yi are alike. Both perverted and distorted themselves. As for me, since I am not entirely shameless in the face of the Course and its Virtuosity, I venture to engage in neither the lofty deeds of Humanity and Responsibility nor in the debased practices of perversity and excess.

 

 

In cultivating the dao, in flowing with the dao, one is able to progress without deciding which way to change the world. Simply by looking within, and cultivating the return of health and energy through internal application of inferior de through doing, and coming that much sooner to application of superior de, non-doing, and ziran, one is able to walk a path that is guaranteed to be naturally beneficial to the whole, without needing to think about right or wrong:

 

Wuwei involves allowing each being to unfold according to its own nature and connection with the Dao. It involves allowing space for ziran to appear. Applied to ethics, wuwei  inspires one to stop doing everything that prevents one from being who one is and that inhibits other beings from expressing their innate condition with the Dao. Such a condition is characterized by virtue. For Daoists, it is possible to be "naturally ethical," but that entails a corresponding transcendence of social conditioning, familial obligations, and personal  habituation. It involves understanding the sources of desire. A lack of attention to the condition of one's core goodness also frequently results in acceptance of what should be rejected and rejection of what should be accepted.

 

The philosophy is not necessary for the cultivation of neidan - it will manifest spontaneously if one is truly and deeply in resonance with the dao. Thus one does not need to be afraid of making the correct or incorrect moral choices - so long as they maintain sincerity in truest connection to the living, eternal dao. The way you phrase things, it seems like you are making mental choices about when to apply Wen and Wu, based on your desires. I could be very wrong - I do not know, and I don't want to project things onto you, so I carefully say this is what I sense from the words you have written, but I do not know.

 

In teaching the dao to others, how is this any different? The teacher I follow leads and guides us, but is careful not to force us to do anything. Different people hear the transmission in different ways, and those with good ears learn much from the example set by the teacher. In this way there is no need to turn away those without "destiny", for only those who are changing their destiny will be able to hear. This can be applied to Wen as well, and does not require use of force, but rather can invite the necessary spirit to awaken to the overcoming of a challenge.

 

This is just an example. There are many ways. Here, I am teaching philosophy, principles. How do I know if this is good or bad? How do I know if this is a synchronistic reply invited by a very weak connection to ziran, rather than ego? I don't. In fact it is likely mostly ego, the whole thing. All of this could be perverted in some way that undermines my entire intent. But I take care to avoid force, I take care to lead others in a direction I hope will lead to a greater increase in their connection to their own natural dao, in their own way. I take care to avoid saying there is only one way. My intention is to point at the dao so that others are free to connect to it in their own way. Here on the internet there are too many types of people to know which school of cultivation is best for each person's destiny, so it is best to stick to what is able to adapt to all of them.

 

daodejing 78 english/feng:

Under heaven nothing is more soft and yielding than water.

Yet for attacking the solid and strong, nothing is better;

It has no equal.

The weak can overcome the strong;

The supple can overcome the stiff.

Under heaven everyone knows this,

Yet no one puts it into practice.

Therefore the sage says:

     He who takes upon himself the humiliation of the people

          is fit to rule them.

     He who takes upon himself the country's disasters deserves

          to be king of the universe.

The truth often seems paradoxical.

[zerostao]

This is an experiment for me. I want to see how long my detached observations about you will keep you  leaking vital qi. I do not ask you to  be in a frenzy, swinging wildly at the wind. I just watch you under the microscope seeing if you will react or hold your center. So far all emotion no de.  

i am surprised he has not resorted to his usual tactics of claiming that you said something somewhere that you never said at all. it is probably becoz you have too few posts now on this forum and it could be easily checked. once you start accumulating more posts--expect this tactic from OD. you have already seen his behavior and insults. it doesnt take long, for sure. 

I am glad that daeluin started a new thread i will check it out ---i wonder if the Wei Wu Wei section would not have been a place to consider placing the new thread?

the only reason i wandered back up to this section (long poisoned imo by a handful of trolling hijackers) is becoz the thread was started by Cheya and i am always interested in what she is finding interesting. for some reason OD has been allowed to insult individual members and the forum at large ever since his arrival here. my biggest mistake as mod, when i was one, was not banning him, i certainly had the just cause,,he hasnt got any better from my view of one thread, well carry on OD, i will leave the section --you are free to troll, insult, accuse , and so forth, i reckon

Edited August 19, 2015 by zerostao

[quantumdragon]

i am surprised he has not resorted to his usual tactics of claiming that you said something somewhere that you never said at all. it is probably becoz you have too few posts now on this forum and it could be easily checked. once you start accumulating more posts--expect this tactic from OD. you have already seen his behavior and insults. it doesnt take long, for sure. 

I am glad that daeluin started a new thread i will check it out ---i wonder if the Wei Wu Wei section would not have been a place to consider placing the new thread?

the only reason i wandered back up to this section (long poisoned imo by a handful of trolling hijackers) is becoz the thread was started by Cheya and i am always interested in what she is finding interesting. for some reason OD has been allowed to insult individual members and the forum at large ever since his arrival here. my biggest mistake as mod, when i was one, was not banning him, i certainly had the just cause,,he hasnt got any better from my view of one thread, well carry on OD, i will leave the section --you are free to troll, insult, accuse , and so forth, i reckon

I am working with  many  men and women committed to having Sun Bu er's  work made available to the  public. We have some lovely , honoring  things in store for the new safe  place Sun Bu er's benefactors on Dao Bums have graciously given her. We are all blessed by the Benevolence shown by Dao Bums moderators and creators. In my mind  they show true DE. 

As for OD, the world is full of all sorts of people living  out their destiny. He has no  effect on me no matter what he says or does. I have found, as Sun Bu er Poem 1 lines 5 and 6 from the title of this  forum thread, through my training, a safe home for my spirit. During the  silly dust up with OD, this image came into my mind screen. He Xiangu know how to rid an area of flies ; )

 

[zerostao]

lovely image, thanks for sharing. and yes, i agree 100% about our admin, mods, and thanks to the creators of this forum,

one that i  have greatly benefited from and no reason to think that sorta thing does not continue. 

[quantumdragon]

 Sure I'm "emotionally unstable", "mighty warrior", "loosing energy", "not as experienced" and haven't even started any practice at all. I've heard it hundred times before. But for some reasons people, constantly repeating that for years, still got nothing at all and cannot explain even simple things in Neidan. Strange, ah? And you disregard any scriptures which contradict your qigong experience, dodging all the time to do personal insults and "valuations". Think about it, if you can, before criticising others just in sake to promote something here.

I have heard you accuse several times about  promoting something...really OD //this from you  who  promotes your school with every post?! I find you so funny. What on earth would any of us on this forum who have read  Ms. Gonet's  translation of the title of  this thread have to gain financially or in any other way.

Edited August 19, 2015 by quantumdragon

[opendao]

i am surprised he has not resorted to his usual tactics of claiming that you said something somewhere that you never said at all. it is probably becoz you have too few posts now on this forum and it could be easily checked. once you start accumulating more posts--expect this tactic from OD. you have already seen his behavior and insults. it doesnt take long, for sure. 

I am glad that daeluin started a new thread i will check it out ---i wonder if the Wei Wu Wei section would not have been a place to consider placing the new thread?

the only reason i wandered back up to this section (long poisoned imo by a handful of trolling hijackers) is becoz the thread was started by Cheya and i am always interested in what she is finding interesting. for some reason OD has been allowed to insult individual members and the forum at large ever since his arrival here. my biggest mistake as mod, when i was one, was not banning him, i certainly had the just cause,,he hasnt got any better from my view of one thread, well carry on OD, i will leave the section --you are free to troll, insult, accuse , and so forth, i reckon

one more... As far as I recall you were caught by using your own words, with quotes and everything, remember that conversation between us and Laozidao? So everything was fair, and now, after a year, you come and insult me accusing in something I haven't ever done... And you even haven't read the thread. Special for you: all the mess has been started after some enlightened being started to insult me and trolling what I say by means of her imaginary "psychic reading" manipulation technique, with words nobody uses in a good society. I think everybody understood everything, but now you show off and start again. Instead of saying something wise about Sun By Er... I really happy that it did happen, so everybody could say loud what they think. Sincerity is very important )))

 

Btw how is Xiao Yao Pai, why you've stopped promoting it?

 

And don't be so upset, it's bad for your heart: you can ban me now, even twice, maybe it will release that negativism you've collected by writing things you didn't really understand   I hoped you've changed since that, so why you're destroying my last hope in human intelligence?

 

Btw, I have to say thank you, because when the amount of false teaching on this forum is reducing, many people, esp newbies, are happy. Now we know you were involved and haven't banned me when on Tao Bums people could see a dozen competing false schools. I'm serious here, thank you. I hope you don't want to return those times, right?

Edited August 19, 2015 by opendao

[opendao]

 thanks to confirm I'm right about you, quantumdragon

Edited August 19, 2015 by opendao

[quantumdragon]

lovely image, thanks for sharing. and yes, i agree 100% about our admin, mods, and thanks to the creators of this forum,

one that i  have greatly benefited from and no reason to think that sorta thing does not continue. 

Stay tuned we may have something good soon. I hope if not here another forum. The work will find it true and appreciated home. It is Universal Energy Governing the Rise of the  Great Yin on the Cosmic clock. As the Yijing counts  the  years  and season  of yin and yang rising the earth and humanity are mirroring 2500 BCE. Yang is declining and yielding in the cosmos nothing humans can do to stop this. A few peoples effort will not matter in the grand scheme of things. In terms of timing  effort it is good to be in harmony with how  the " season " of the procession of the equinox is going. Even right now Yang in a year is declining Yin is rising. Soon  the wondrous Midnight in a year comes. I can only do my best with harmonising with Universal Energies.  

[opendao]

In teaching the dao to others, how is this any different? The teacher I follow leads and guides us, but is careful not to force us to do anything. Different people hear the transmission in different ways, and those with good ears learn much from the example set by the teacher. In this way there is no need to turn away those without "destiny", for only those who are changing their destiny will be able to hear. This can be applied to Wen as well, and does not require use of force, but rather can invite the necessary spirit to awaken to the overcoming of a challenge.

 

True teacher teaches from heart to heart, not by words. Those who have no destiny will never find such a teacher, so there is no such thing as "turn away".

 

This is just an example. There are many ways. Here, I am teaching philosophy, principles. How do I know if this is good or bad? How do I know if this is a synchronistic reply invited by a very weak connection to ziran, rather than ego? I don't. In fact it is likely mostly ego, the whole thing.

 

then it's necessary to practice more before teaching others. Any advise to another person, even on a forum, has to come not from somebody's ego. If it's not like that, then it's better not to advise at all. That's why I'm so against different self-proclaimed false schools: because what they teach is just dangerous and destroy people's destiny. Why they are false? Because there is no transmission from heart to heart, so the founders have no De of the past.

 

All of this could be perverted in some way that undermines my entire intent. But I take care to avoid force, I take care to lead others in a direction I hope will lead to a greater increase in their connection to their own natural dao, in their own way. I take care to avoid saying there is only one way. My intention is to point at the dao so that others are free to connect to it in their own way. Here on the internet there are too many types of people to know which school of cultivation is best for each person's destiny, so it is best to stick to what is able to adapt to all of them.

 

right, but you agree that their choice have to be safe for them? So it's better to stick to something, that works for all. Any traditional Neidan school has methods for different kind of people. But it's not the teaching adapts, but the teacher has to choose, because the teacher has De to do that. What you suggest is different, you're trying to give people some misty philosophy that adapts to them, because everybody understands it differently. Such thing already exists and its name is "new-age Taoism". Has it anything in common with Dao schools of the past? With Lao Zi? With Huangdi? Obviously no.

[quantumdragon]

 

 

Btw how is Xiao Yao Pai, why you've stopped promoting it?

 

And don't be so upset, it's bad for your heart: you can ban me now, even twice, maybe it will release that negativism you've collected by writing things you didn't really understand   I hoped you've changed since that, so why you're destroying my last hope in human intelligence?

 

Btw, I have to say thank you, because when the amount of false teaching on this forum is reducing, many people, esp newbies, are happy. Now we know you were involved and haven't banned me when on Tao Bums people could see a dozen competing false schools. I'm serious here, thank you. I hope you don't want to return those times, right?

I feel opendoa is kind to give us all his energy. He is a great healer. Every comment  give qi to others. the secret is it does not matter how  he feels or what he send to u, he is a great healer,  If we know our practice ... before blood in the void all can be converted to original qi. Thank you  great healer opendao. 

[quantumdragon]

 

 

Btw how is Xiao Yao Pai, why you've stopped promoting it?

 

And don't be so upset, it's bad for your heart: you can ban me now, even twice, maybe it will release that negativism you've collected by writing things you didn't really understand   I hoped you've changed since that, so why you're destroying my last hope in human intelligence?

 

Btw, I have to say thank you, because when the amount of false teaching on this forum is reducing, many people, esp newbies, are happy. Now we know you were involved and haven't banned me when on Tao Bums people could see a dozen competing false schools. I'm serious here, thank you. I hope you don't want to return those times, right?

Oh please do not get banned we need your healing energy. It feels so good everything you say. LIke candies for babies. Thank you great healer opendao. I Love your soothing self. Please be kind to an old  lady heal more. 

[quantumdragon]

 thanks to confirm I'm right about you, quantumdragon

You are welcome great might healer . Please continue to offer more of your energy in any form. Especially your  insightful  "advanced circulations" so good. So wise. Cannot get  enough of OD healing energy.  I love to circulate any thing  gifted in the  triple circulation method. Everything there becomes gold.  For you, for me, for everyone on this  forum. 

Edited August 19, 2015 by quantumdragon

[Daeluin]

True teacher teaches from heart to heart, not by words. Those who have no destiny will never find such a teacher, so there is no such thing as "turn away".

 

Agreed.

 

then it's necessary to practice more before teaching others. Any advise to another person, even on a forum, has to come not from somebody's ego. If it's not like that, then it's better not to advise at all. That's why I'm so against different self-proclaimed false schools: because what they teach is just dangerous and destroy people's destiny. Why they are false? Because there is no transmission from heart to heart, so the founders have no De of the past.

 

Agreed - but there are different levels of ego. Everything I say comes from my heart directly, but also passes through the filter of my mind.

 

right, but you agree that their choice have to be safe for them? So it's better to stick to something, that works for all. Any traditional Neidan school has methods for different kind of people. But it's not the teaching adapts, but the teacher has to choose, because the teacher has De to do that. What you suggest is different, you're trying to give people some misty philosophy that adapts to them, because everybody understands it differently. Such thing already exists and its name is "new-age Taoism". Has it anything in common with Dao schools of the past? With Lao Zi? With Huangdi? Obviously no.

 

You say different methods for different people - this is the adaptation of the transmission. The student must also adapt, must also work to connect to the transmission and embody it in their changes.

 

Yes, many new age manuals don't seem to connect to the root. I imagine they still serve a purpose, as do all things.

 

What I share intends to direct back to the root, leads back to the classics, uses allegory similar to Zhuangzi, much as many daoist commentators have done in the past, helping to decode and make more clear the ancient transmissions, so that more people may find them accessible.

 

But hey, here you are attacking me, forcing me to defend myself, otherwise your words tell others what I am doing, as if you know: What you suggest is different, you're trying to give people some misty philosophy that adapts to them, because everybody understands it differently. Such thing already exists and its name is "new-age Taoism". Has it anything in common with Dao schools of the past? With Lao Zi? With Huangdi? Obviously no.

 

I feel that it is statements like this that cause confusion, misleading others. "Obviously my suggestions have nothing in common with dao schools in the past"? Obviously how? Everything shares commonalities, as the whole includes all parts. To me, you seem more concerned with pointing out the false than pointing to the true. Does leading others to skepticism help them identify the true? But Zhuanzi says that knowledge is endless. We could spend lifetimes pointing out the false, never getting closer to the true. This does not seem helpful to me, but if you think so then that is your way. Unfortunately it is a way that creates much conflict with others, as often what you identify as false is connected to and pointing to the true in a way that you have not received the transmission to understand, and yet you judge it anyway. Good luck to you sir.

[Daeluin]

But it's not the teaching adapts, but the teacher has to choose, because the teacher has De to do that. What you suggest is different, you're trying to give people some misty philosophy that adapts to them, because everybody understands it differently.

 

Actually, I was reading in Zhuangzi a few days ago an interesting excerpt that covers the operation of how teaching can accomplish adaptation to many minds in different ways, even over the course of changing times. If you are patient with me I will post that excerpt here tonight, it might provide for an interesting exchange.

 

Edit: I posted this excerpt over in the Zhuangzi subform for further discussion: http://thedaobums.com/topic/39184-heavenly-transitions

Edited August 22, 2015 by Daeluin