Is the crown chakra ,shen .

MooNiNite · July 17, 2015

At that stage, there can be as many as you need.

I am familair with them then, cannot see them though. used to be able to kinda, like whispy things. They are clones of oneself that heal the person and can also be given commands. I havent experienced the yang shen bodies though.

voidisyinyang · July 17, 2015

Not to take this too far afoot from the opening post but I think that some people will miss this point:

A thing to note is that pythagorean philosophy (and philosophy of a similar orientation, like taoism) does not use terms in the way that modern philosophy and thinking tend to. Modern philosophy/thinking tends to keep all words in reference to things that can be used in a sort of “playing God” style where they refer to things that sit before you and you can induce changes from the outside.

It is a sort of chessboard or math-problem styled thinking where there are objects and morphisms and to get beyond this you need a very protracted method for incorporating a consistent semantics (which could likewise be rendered, apart from its applications, as a system of objects and morphisms).

This style of thinking, though, is pretty much besides the point. That is, Pythagorean styled philosophy has almost entirely performative terms. As a result, analysis of the terms is always besides the point; the terms are only understood when they transform the orientation of your mind.

Therefore, in western terms, the term foundation would be a double entendre rather than just a general term. That is, we're not saying that the foundation of quantum physics is nothingness (which could then be justified and rendered in symmetric logic and maths); we're saying that the foundation of nothingness is the foundation of quantum physics and you'll only “know” it when your mind has moved there.

This is slightly on the fringe but, from Hume's Treatise of Human Nature:
“No discovery could have been made more happily for deciding allcontroversies concerning ideas, than that abovementioned, thatimpressions always take the precedency of them (ideas), and that every idea,with which the imagination is furnished, first makes its appearance in acorrespondent impression. These latter perceptions are all so clear andevident, that they admit of no controversy; though many of our ideas areso obscure, that it is almost impossible even for the mind, which formsthem, to tell exactly their nature and composition. Let us apply thisprinciple, in order to discover farther the nature of our ideas of spaceand time.Upon opening my eyes, and turning them to the surrounding objects,I perceive many visible bodies; and upon shutting them again, andconsidering the distance betwixt these bodies, I acquire the idea ofextension. As every idea is derived from some impression, whichis exactly similar to it, the impressions similar to this idea ofextension, must either be some sensations derived from the sight, orsome internal impressions arising from these sensations”--- http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/4705/pg4705.txt Which is to say that the typical, modern, symmetric rendering performatively keeps the mind oriented toward symbols; the taoist/pythagorean rendering willactually move your mind toward the emptiness. From the excerpt from Hume, it should be noted that the stuff of symmetric logic is always beholden to the empirical content; the symmetrization of symbols (and their impact on thinkers)tends to condition a down-playing of receptivity to reality as such. Hence there are situations where this can happen:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiP22kTxq_g (Jump to the 2 minute mark to get to the part I am meaning).because the symbol use tends to keep people from thinking like Hume…But following from Hume, we could simplify the conception of reality(in some sense), and get a more direct rendering of cosmology as per Eric Lerner:http://bigbangneverhappened.org/The%20Case%20Against%20The%20Big%20Bang.pdf
---Although, I never know the limits of my ignorance---if I'm far afield, make a comment

Edit (my text started appearing in the blue background on the right; it's fixed now)

Eric Lerner is interesting but he is proposing some kind of electrogravitic model - I reference him in my research - based on fluid dynamics, inspired by chaos mathematics.

I made this error in my masters thesis when I equated the logistic equations of chaos math with the tai chi symbol.

It wasn't until several years later that I "unlearned" this error - even though the tai chi symbol can be created by logistic symmetric math - as I reference in my masters thesis - that does not mean that the tai chi symbol is equated with such symmetric math.

Eric Lerner's model of cosmology is still a classical physics model.

I agree with what you say about language - I mean strictly the Orthodox Pythagoreans required 9 years of silence.

To wit - the best plan would be for me to ignore all the lies on the internet about equating alchemy with particles of western science, etc. and instead for me to practice 9 years of silence. haha.

Obviously that type of silence I can also not practice in my "real" life.

I mean even the silence required of Buddhist monks does not preclude writing for them - which for me is a false silence.

Real silence should avoid any kind of symmetric-based logical thinking even in writing terms.

I do type in full lotus which does help - but not all the time - if I have recently eaten then I avoid full lotus so as to digest without the waste just going to the head from my stomach.

So I searched eric lerner and my name and I discovered an interesting post I made:

The Black Hole War

Probably the most important insight of the Black Hole War (Susskind versus Hawking) is the basic, yet totally ignored, fact that when particles become smaller than the Planck length, gravity takes over as the strongest force. Normally in subatomic matter gravity is non-existent -- but as I stated, because of the infrared-ultraviolet condition:

"In part, it was the lack of understanding of the Infrared-Ultraviolet connection that misled physicist about the nature of information falling on a horizon. In chapter 15, we imagined using a Heisenberg's microscope to watch an atom falling toward a black hole. As time progresses and the atom gets closer and closer to the [black hole] horizon, it requires increasingly high-energy photons to resolve the atom. Eventually, the energy will become so great that the collision of the photon and the atom will create a large black hole. Then the image will have to be assembled out of the long-wavelength Hawking radiation. The result is that instead of becoming sharper, the image of the atom will get increasingly blurred to the point that the atom will appear to spread out over the whole horizon."

What this means is that there is a SIZE inversion (or again mass inversion) of black holes on the macrocosmic and microcosmic level. Supermassive black holes ARE quantum black holes -- because of the gravity inversion and even more so the universe is a huge black hole.

Susskind states that not only is the universe accelerating in expansion but that it's accelerating EXPONENTIALLY. Lawrence Krauss made a similar announcement just a few days ago -- the Cosmic Rip.

The assumption all along is that information is defined by space that is logically "falsifiable" through visual measurement -- space as time.

The Complementary Principle in science keeps getting expanded -- first with wave-particle duality and then with quantum measurement uncertainty of momentum and position and now with space itself.

https://concen.org/oldforum/thread-4354.html

This is what qigong master Jim Nance means when he says on his website that the information of the whole universe is contained within a single cell.

http://www.guidingqi.com/welcome-pacific/

Infolad1 · July 17, 2015

Your definition of quantum physics based on particles shows your bias - you say you didn't "leave it out" - I never said you left out quantum physics - I said that you did not make quantum physics the foundation of your science analysis.

Planck's constant is based on a materialist definition that does not address the foundation of quantum physics from Fourier Uncertainty as discovered by Louis de Broglie.

Namely - as light accelerates by going higher in frequency then time slows down according to Einstein's relativity. De Broglie realized this violates a basic fundamental principle of science - the Law of Pythagoras that time as wavelength is inverse to frequency as energy. So if frequency is getting higher and bigger then wavelength as time should be getting smaller and faster but the opposite occurs in relativity.

So de Broglie reasoned that because relativity is real then there must be two time clocks - one that is faster than the speed of light which then goes back in reverse time and harmonizes the time in sync with frequency. De Broglie called this the Law of Phase Harmony.

This phenomenon explains precognition - and it also explains that energy is fundamentally a wave - not a particle - a unified wave as a nondual experience.

And guess what - science just confirmed this is true - that the nonlocal wave of energy is more fundamental than the photon particle that Einstein got the nobel prize for and was the basis for the "quanta" that you use to define quantum physics.

https://plus.google.com/113210754710939771474/posts/BMhEEXFdzEM

The Law of Phase Harmony has to be converted back into Western classical physics using the Poisson Bracket - so I'm not talking about any model at all. I'm saying that quantum physics rediscovered the truth of nonlocal complementary opposites (of time and frequency) as the opposite extreme of actual Taoist training.

Remember it is you who say you want to use "quanta" to describe yin and yang as physical matter - but time and frequency are non-local uncertainties based on non-commutative math which means that the order in which you measure them changes their value. So then consciousness in the measurement process directly is part of the "experiment."

So quantum physics justifies this quantum entanglement by saying the information signal is only measured "after the fact" and so that linear causality of relativity is not violated. That is true - but quantum physics logically infers the truth of a nondual reality. This is detailed in Bernard D'Espagnat's quantum physics analysis: http://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2009/mar/17/templeton-quantum-entanglement

Thanks for completely not understanding what I was writing.

The energy that I might not have enough of yet - is the Yuan Qi energy. The reason there is dizziness is from using up too much Yuan Qi - it wasn't that I didn't have enough of it "yet" - it is because I used too much of it already doing healing on other people. This also happened to the qigong master.

You speak of your experiences - but you don't have any corroboration - other than posting online. The practices I did have been corroborated by the qigong masters who taught me.

No again that is not what I said. Number is based on complementary opposites and I said "one is not a number." I never said that 0=1 which is again a symmetric number argument. Zero does not exist - that's why Aristotle was against zero as a "negative void" materialistic foundation of reality. The concept of zero assumes a commutative symmetric property of number analysis. It seems you have not really thought about the foundations of Western science.

You want to use Western science to spread alchemy training but you have not really thought about why Western science is different.

You were the one you threw out science terms to say that you didn't want to use "archaic" terminology. I never said that quantum physics makes Taoist Yoga sound legitimate - on the contrary quantum physics is the opposite extreme of Taoist Yoga.

Also you claim I am reciting "ad nauseum" passages - on the contrary I am presenting information based on clarifying and arguing specifics about what the Yuan Shen is compared to the Yuan Qi.

If you can prevent any evidence for this claim - go ahead - otherwise you are resorting to just a sophistry attack with no substance.

Notice how you throw out a bunch of pop science quantum "models" that you want me to consider and yet the quantum scientists I refer you to are not even in your list?

You claim to understand quantum physics but you don't. I've studied all those models you refer to but they ignore the fundamental issue at hand.

Your comment here demonstrates a bourgeois mind-controlled approach to technology just as you did with your shopping around for quantum models.

Technology is imposed as a supply-side structure by the elite using Western mathematics - I call this the trajectory of tantric technology.

So for example a person has to have a cell phone these days just to be considered a "normal" person - and living without a t.v. would be considered bizarre - unless you rely on some other form for watching media, etc.

Supply side economics is built into the logarithmic technology - this goes back to Platonic philosophy.

As for your Matrix comments which you try to side-step - again you brought up the metaphor.

I already did an Actual Matrix Plan expose based on my masters thesis research.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_matrix43.htm

As for classical physics being inherently disharmonious - that is due to the symmetric mathematical logic that is the basis for classical physics. I'm not making that up as my own opinion: Professor Brozacchini wrote a book on this called Plato's Computer. It's in Italian but I've read his music math analysis and I've corresponded with him about my own music math analysis.

Luigi Borzacchini's Home Page - Dipartimento di Matematica

:mellow:

This is not a thread about the history of Quantum Mechanics, Innersoundqigong. Please stay on topic.

With that said, I'm going to respond to your comments, so that my response is a matter of public record here, for others to

read, and come to their own conclusions.

Your whole argument is based on Louis de Broglie's Interpretation. Here it is, In his own words:

De Broglie Hypothesis

"The fundamental idea of [my 1924 thesis] was the following: The fact that, following Einstein's introduction of photons in light waves, one knew that light contains particles which are concentrations of energy incorporated into the wave, suggests that all particles, like the electron, must be transported by a wave into which it is incorporated... My essential idea was to extend to all particles the coexistence of waves and particles discovered by Einstein in 1905 in the case of light and photons." "With every particle of matter with mass m and velocity v a real wave must be 'associated'", related to the momentum by the equation:

where \lambda is the wavelength, h is the Planck constant, p is the momentum, m is the rest mass, v is the velocity and c is the speed of light in a vacuum."

This theory set the basis of wave mechanics. It was supported by Einstein, confirmed by the electron diffraction experiments of Davisson and Germer, and generalized by the work of Schrödinger.

However, this generalization was statistical and was not approved of by de Broglie, who said "that the particle must be the seat of an internal periodic movement and that it must move in a wave in order to remain in phase with it was ignored by the actual physicists [who are] wrong to consider a wave propagation without localization of the particle, which was quite contrary to my original ideas."

From a philosophical viewpoint, this theory of matter-waves has contributed greatly to the ruin of the atomism of the past.

Originally, de Broglie thought that a real wave (i.e., having a direct physical interpretation) was associated with particles. In fact, the wave aspect of matter was formalized by a wavefunction defined by the Schrödinger equation, which is a pure mathematical entity having a probabilistic interpretation, without the support of real physical elements. This wavefunction gives an appearance of wave behavior to matter, without making real physical waves appear. However, until the end of his life de Broglie returned to a direct and real physical interpretation of matter-waves, following the work of David Bohm. The de Broglie–Bohm theory is today the only interpretation giving real status to matter-waves and representing the predictions of quantum theory.

So If not for David Bohm's work, de Broglie's theory of matter-waves wouldn't even be recognized...at all.

And even then, de Broglie's theory, known as Pilot Wave theory, had too much of a similarity to another popular quantum interpretation:

"Many authors have expressed critical views of the de Broglie-Bohm theory, by comparing it to Everett's many worlds approach. Many (but not all) proponents of the de Broglie-Bohm theory (such as Bohm and Bell) interpret the universal wave function as physically real.

According to some supporters of Everett's theory, if the (never collapsing) wave function is taken to be physically real, then it is natural to interpret the theory as having the same many worlds as Everett's theory.

In the Everettian view the role of the Bohm particle is to act as a "pointer", tagging, or selecting, just one branch of the universal wavefunction (the assumption that this branch indicates which wave packet determines the observed result of a given experiment is called the "result assumption"; the other branches are designated "empty" and implicitly assumed by Bohm to be devoid of conscious observers.

H. Dieter Zeh comments on these "empty" branches:

“ It is usually overlooked that Bohm's theory contains the same "many worlds" of dynamically separate branches as the Everett interpretation (now regarded as "empty" wave components), since it is based on precisely the same . . . global wave function . . . ”

David Deutsch has expressed the same point more "acerbically":

“ pilot-wave theories are parallel-universe theories in a state of chronic denial. ”

So, although de Broglie did in fact do great work In helping to lay a part of the foundation of Quantum Mechanics,

his theory never gained any real traction, at the end of the day. It was never The foundation of the theory.

And then you bring In Pythagoras to the mix:

You: "De Broglie realized this violates a basic fundamental principle of science - the Law of Pythagoras that time as wavelength is inverse to frequency as energy".

Let's see about Pythagaros' contributions to science, shall we?:

"Pythagoras made influential contributions to philosophy and religion in the late 6th century BC. He is often revered as a great mathematician and scientist and is best known for the Pythagorean theorem which bears his name. However, because legend and obfuscation cloud his work even more than that of the other pre-Socratic philosophers, one can give only a tentative account of his teachings, and some have questioned whether he contributed much to mathematics or natural philosophy. Many of the accomplishments credited to Pythagoras may actually have been accomplishments of his colleagues and successors".

The link that you put up as proof of de Broglie's theory, did no such thing. It just showed experiments that have been done,

that validate quantum entanglement, what Einstein called, "spooky action at a distance".

Scientists already figured out that he was wrong about this. doesn't mean he was wrong about everything. Faulty reasoning on your part.

Time is a measure in which events can be ordered from the past through the present into the future, and also the measure of durations of events and the intervals between them.

Frequency is the number of occurrences of a repeating event per unit time.

So frequency is just an aspect of time, not it's complement. that's space.

Time (Yang/Temporal/Differentiation of Events, according to the left brain hemisphere/Eternity).

Space(Yin/Spatial/Unity/ according to right brain hemisphere/Infinity).

As I've said before, Yin & Yang can be used to talk about anything, and are dualistic by their very nature. Again, I've already said, and shown this. Yin and Yang can be used to discuss matter, which I did. They can be used to discuss consciousness,

which I also did.

At no time did I say that Yin and Yang were physical matter. I was very specific. I said they were modalities, forces. Please don't attempt to put words into my mouth.

I understand exactly what you're saying. I just don't agree with It.

I put my bio up the day I registered here: http://thedaobums.com/topic/38830-hello-everyone/

"I've been doing the Chinese Internal Martial Art of Tai Chi Quan for over 16 years, since 1999. (Yes, Tai Chi Quan is a Martial Art

I've acquired Internal arts skills in the Wu-Tang system of Grandmaster Liu Yun-Chiao, including Old Form Yang Style Tai Chi Quan, Old Form Chen Style Tai Chi Quan, Baguazhang, Standing Meditation, Long Fist, & Tai Chi Qigong.

I also do Internal Alchemy, and Iron Body / Iron Crotch Nei-Gong, as taught to me by Grandmaster Tu Jin-Sheng .

I've been certified by my Sifu to teach Yang Style Tai Chi Quan, which I've done for close to 5 years.

Since 1999, I've also taught weekly classes in qigong, theurgy, meditation, stress management, and nutrition to the general public, and corporate clients.

I've won the following awards:

1999 1^st Place – Lightweight Division Push Hands

1999 Bronze Medal – Push Hands

1998 1^st Place – Lightweight Division Push Hands

I'm continuing the work to be certified in all aspects of the Wu-tan system."

I also have an accumulated 14,000+ hours practice time, over this time period.

If you have a Bio, feel free to put It up, along with what Qigong Masters you study with, If you're able to do so.

I will now show that both Taoists, and Buddhists already understood all of the above, utilizing the Yin Yang symbol.

I will now turn this sideways.

Both Wave (Yin/Mother/Matter), And Particle (Yang/Father/Pattern), Interacting with each other, within a closed system.

All you need to know about the foundation of manifested reality, In one elegant mandala.

Remove what's Inside, and you have Zero, a circle. no beginning, no end.

All words are just descriptions, finite, & limited, by their very nature. Zero is a description, 1 is a description.

de·scrip·tion

dəˈskripSH(ə)n/

noun

1.a spoken or written representation or account of a person, object, or event.

"people who had seen him were able to give a description"

synonyms: account, report, rendition, explanation, illustration; More

2.a sort, kind, or class of people or things.

"ships of every description"

synonyms: sort, variety, kind, type, category, order, breed, class, designation, specification, genre, genus, brand, make, character, ilk, stripe

"vehicles of every description"

You're making a lot of absolute statements about me. They're opinions, nothing more, nothing less. People on here can do their own research, and decide for themselves If I know the basic history, and principles of Quantum Physics, based on what i've written.

Anyone on here can cite what I've written, research It for themselves, and validate for themselves If what I say is true, as they can what you've written.

I'll let that be the determinant as to who's "right".

Your own writings on this forum betray your dogmatic stance regarding anything that counters what's In Taoist Yoga.

I've had Taoist Yoga for 16 years. Annotated it. Done It. You're forever utilizing terminology, and phrases from that book.

Again, anyone on this forum can get a copy, or PDF of Taoist Yoga, go through It, compare what's In the book, and what you've said, and come to there own conclusions.

You: "pop science quantum "models".

The founders of Quantum Physics are not "Pop Science". I write so people can understand what I'm saying.

I'm not about hiding beyond unnecessary nomenclature. I've got more respect for the people on here that are honestly seeking, to not waste their time.

You: "I've studied all those models you refer to but they ignore the fundamental issue at hand.

This is your opinion, which you're entitled to. but that's all it is. Again, people can research your viewpoint for themselves, and decide If you're right, or not.

You: "Your comment here demonstrates a bourgeois mind-controlled approach to technology just as you did with your shopping around for quantum models."

LOL! Now you're going all Trotsky on me? So being middle class is supposed to be an Insult? How old are you?

And saying that I'm mind controlled? People that know me will crack up at that one. You're pretty loose with the Insults. May need to work on those habit energies some more. LOL!

The rest of it you went completely off topic. This is not a Conspiracy/Parapolitics forum (Not that there's anything wrong with that).

So folks, there you have it. You can read, and research both of our viewpoints, if you choose to do so, and see which one works for you, If at all.

Thanks again Innersoundqigong for giving me the opportunity to leave a discourse that seekers can possibly use on their travels.

Let's agree to disagree, and keep It moving. Good Fortune to you!

Now I've got to go make some Imaginary money, whose numbers don't exist, to pay my imaginary rent. LOL!

Cheers!

Walker · July 17, 2015

知其要者，一言而终；不知其要者，流散无穷。Not that there isn't some great information in here being shared by cultivators with far more experience than I have. But since we're talking about a word that tends to be used in certain ways in the context of the language it comes from and the traditions that still use that language...

In my opinion, from the standpoint of practice as well as from the standpoint of understanding classical Daoist and medical writings, it is enough to understand shen as consciousness. If one takes it a step further and divides the word shen into its houtian (post-heaven) and xiantian (pre-heaven) components, then the former is consciousness made murky by ideas, whereas the latter is raw consciousness, raw awareness. Put another way, you experience the former while you're thinking; the fewer thoughts you have while still remaining in a clear, aware, and awake state, then the closer you are to experiencing the latter.

Various locations we can identify in the body's gross, subtle, and/or imagined aspects may have correspondences with attributes that we break the human being at large into, but trying to make definitions in the way that the OP suggests seems antithetical to the core teachings of Daoism which you'll find front-and-center in the first chapter of the DDJ. Leaving books aside, such ideas are also antithetical to the living praxis, whose basic litmus test is always 大道至简: "the great way is great is ultimate simplicity," and whose living teachers tend not to encourage students to "着相," which means to get too involved with appearances and apparencies, whether be they subtle or gross.

脚踏实地.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Walker

Infolad1 · July 17, 2015

Not to take this too far afoot from the opening post but I think that some people will miss this point:

A thing to note is that pythagorean philosophy (and philosophy of a similar orientation, like taoism) does not use terms in the way that modern philosophy and thinking tend to. Modern philosophy/thinking tends to keep all words in reference to things that can be used in a sort of “playing God” style where they refer to things that sit before you and you can induce changes from the outside.

It is a sort of chessboard or math-problem styled thinking where there are objects and morphisms and to get beyond this you need a very protracted method for incorporating a consistent semantics (which could likewise be rendered, apart from its applications, as a system of objects and morphisms).

This style of thinking, though, is pretty much besides the point. That is, Pythagorean styled philosophy has almost entirely performative terms. As a result, analysis of the terms is always besides the point; the terms are only understood when they transform the orientation of your mind.

Therefore, in western terms, the term foundation would be a double entendre rather than just a general term. That is, we're not saying that the foundation of quantum physics is nothingness (which could then be justified and rendered in symmetric logic and maths); we're saying that the foundation of nothingness is the foundation of quantum physics and you'll only “know” it when your mind has moved there.

This is slightly on the fringe but, from Hume's Treatise of Human Nature:
“No discovery could have been made more happily for deciding all
controversies concerning ideas, than that abovementioned, that
impressions always take the precedency of them (ideas), and that every idea,
with which the imagination is furnished, first makes its appearance in a
correspondent impression. These latter perceptions are all so clear and
evident, that they admit of no controversy; though many of our ideas are
so obscure, that it is almost impossible even for the mind, which forms
them, to tell exactly their nature and composition. Let us apply this
principle, in order to discover farther the nature of our ideas of space
and time.

Upon opening my eyes, and turning them to the surrounding objects,
I perceive many visible bodies; and upon shutting them again, and
considering the distance betwixt these bodies, I acquire the idea of
extension. As every idea is derived from some impression, which
is exactly similar to it, the impressions similar to this idea of
extension, must either be some sensations derived from the sight, or
some internal impressions arising from these sensations”
--- http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/4705/pg4705.txt 

Which is to say that the typical, modern, symmetric rendering performatively 
keeps the mind oriented toward symbols; the taoist/pythagorean rendering will
actually move your mind toward the emptiness. From the excerpt from Hume, it 
should be noted that the stuff of symmetric logic is always beholden to the 
empirical content; the symmetrization of symbols (and their impact on thinkers)
tends to condition a down-playing of receptivity to reality as such. Hence 
there are situations where this can happen:
(Jump to the 2 minute mark to get to the part I am meaning). because the symbol use tends to keep people from thinking like Hume… But following from Hume, we could simplify the conception of reality (in some sense), and get a more direct rendering of cosmology as per Eric Lerner: http://bigbangneverhappened.org/The%20Case%20Against%20The%20Big%20Bang.pdf
---Although, I never know the limits of my ignorance---if I'm far afield, make a comment

Edit (my text started appearing in the blue background on the right; it's fixed now)

Well, since most of the things being attributed to Pythagoras that were actually on point, were Ancient Egyptian In origin,

what you say makes sense.

Ancient Egyptians were master, and mistresses of double entendres, and puns.

Things attributed to Pythagaros are mostly speculation.

There is no such thing as Pythagorean Philosophy. What's called Pythagorean Philosophy is just watered down Egyptian Cosmologics.

That is, we're not saying that the foundation of quantum physics is nothingness (which could then be justified and rendered in symmetric logic and maths); we're saying that the foundation of nothingness is the foundation of quantum physics and you'll only “know” it when your mind has moved there.

As I said previously, all words are are descriptions for the level of the simulation we're currently working from.

No Thing is the foundation of every thing. Consciousness is immaterial, thus no thing. Like knows like. Direct

experience is the only way to know this reality. Words fail at this point.

As an old sage wrote, "all of these words I write, are the words of the Devil". LOL!

People tend to overcomplicate all of this, and It degenerates Into "Blah, blah, blah."

If you can't explain the basic theory to a five year old, you're doing something wrong. William of Ocham tends to prevail in these matters. Keep it simple.

And who is this "I", that Hume keeps talking about?

And yes, this has gone WAY off the topic of the thread. let's get back to It please.

I've basically said what I needed to say. Thanks for joining the discussion Apeiron&Peiron.

Cheers!

Edited July 17, 2015 by Infolad1

Infolad1 · July 17, 2015

知其要者，一言而终；不知其要者，流散无穷。

In my opinion, from the standpoint of practice as well as from the standpoint of understanding classical Daoist and medical writings, it is enough to understand shen as consciousness. If one takes it a step further and divides the word shen into its houtian (post-heaven) and xiantian (pre-heaven) components, then the former is consciousness made murky by ideas, whereas the latter is raw consciousness, raw awareness. Put another way, you experience the former while you're thinking; the fewer thoughts you have while still remaining in a clear, aware, and awake state, then the closer you are to experiencing the latter.

Various locations we can identify in the body's gross, subtle, and/or imagined aspects may have correspondences with attributes that we break the human being at large into, but trying to make definitions in the way that the OP suggests seems antithetical to the core teachings of Daoism which you'll find front-and-center in the first chapter of the DDJ. Leaving books aside, such ideas are also antithetical to the living praxis, whose basic litmus test is always 大道至简: "the great way is great is ultimate simplicity," and whose living teachers tend not to encourage students to "着相," which means to get involved with appearances and apparencies, whether be they subtle or gross.

脚踏实地.

The great way is ultimate simplicity Walker. but all Initiatory systems utilize a "secret language" at the beginning, and middle stages. In other words, definitions, terms.

You can't yank someone out of their old worldview. It takes time. One of the subtle, yet effective ways to do this, is through language.

Another way is diet (The Human mental construct/Animal Spirit One Two punch).

Once you've changed their language, diet, and gotten them to do Initial breathing exercises, meditation, & mantras for some time, THEN you can start the process of simplification. Once the process activates, you'll do it automatically.

Cheers!

Infolad1 · July 17, 2015

I am familair with them then, cannot see them though. used to be able to kinda, like whispy things. They are clones of oneself that heal the person and can also be given commands. I havent experienced the yang shen bodies though.

That's great! Shows you're doing the work.

How far out do you send the Yin Shen Emanation body? Do you abide by the protocols for how far out to send it initially?

The Yang Shen Emanation Body takes more time to manifest, but you'll know It, because everyone can See It. While you're awake.

This goes under speculation on my part (I'll let you know, when I get there), but it makes sense, once you understand the theory, and from what I've experienced so far.

Cheers!

the1gza · July 17, 2015

Yea infolad this is definitely going nowhere quick. At some point I think we should learn that folks are gonna have different opinions and that, at the end of the day, their knowledge and experience is going to be relative, especially if they are involved in an internet forum. It doesn't matter if you got a ph.D in a field or you're just an internet enthusiast of a subject, no one here can honestly come close to knowing every 1% of what there is to be known and experienced about life on this small planet called Earth, let alone the UNIVERSE or ones beyond this universe. We honestly can't even confirm if physical laws even act the same in all the planets in our own solar system, let alone others So what the hell is the point of us here, who are honestly supposed to be gaining our knowledge from experience far more than from theoretical musings, in wasting energy battling with ideas? Just sayin', there's a whole lot more we could be expressing in learning from each other's experiences rather than being turned off by others thoughts or perhaps being turned off by another's experience because it doesn't fit what you have seen or heard. Not wrackin' on any one person, but seriously theoretical debates are grown folks ways of showing they aren't that "grown" after all.

The great way is ultimate simplicity Walker. but all Initiatory systems utilize a "secret language" at the beginning, and middle stages. In other words, definitions, terms.

You can't yank someone out of their old worldview. It takes time. One of the subtle, yet effective ways to do this, is through language.

Another way is diet (The Human mental construct/Animal Spirit One Two punch).

Once you've changed their language, diet, and gotten them to do Initial breathing exercises, meditation, & mantras for some time, THEN you can start the process of simplification. Once the process activates, you'll do it automatically.

Cheers!

The only thing I would say here is that a lot of initiatory schools rely on language, but that's not necessarily a good thing. The history of most spiritual disciplines are wrought with overwhelming failure and also complacence with failure. And in using language, in an effort to spread teachings rather than letting it spread organically (allowing students to come through genuine vibrational resonance), original simple spiritual teachings were degraded into religious movements that greatly bastardized the original teachings. It wasn't that students needed language to understand these things, it was that followers were trying to use complicated language, fables, and constructs to convince people to practice a way that they honestly should not be in to. All major known traditions are guilty of trying to "sell" their system, with all sorts of noblisms attached to it like being "saviors" of mankind or establishing "Unity" consciousness. But that language was there for the very reason you said, to yank people out of their world view. Problem is, that effort has largely been a humongous failure in terms of people honestly changing their worldview. Meanwhile, people who would get the first time around, for the sake of appeasing everyone, are running through loops that are completely unnecessary.

Just look at this conversation here. It has honestly because a heaping mess of over-complication that, at the end of the day, didn't reach any resolution aside from the one you entered in here with: disagreement. Now I'm not saying it's bad, only you guys can say that. However, it doesn't seem like a lot of time and effort to remain at the same conclusion that was reached quite some time earlier in the conversation, know what I mean? Now I've talked to you before infolad, so you know I ain't doggin' you and that if you are doing what you got to do, then it's fine with me (and who cares if it wasn't). But overall, I honestly do feel that this type of shit does get extremely old as a human proclivity overall, na'mean? Let's just cultivate, share what we find, and then live life. It's really not that damn hard hahahaha.

MooNiNite · July 17, 2015

That's great! Shows you're doing the work.

How far out do you send the Yin Shen Emanation body? Do you abide by the protocols for how far out to send it initially?

The Yang Shen Emanation Body takes more time to manifest, but you'll know It, because everyone can See It. While you're awake.

This goes under speculation on my part (I'll let you know, when I get there), but it makes sense, once you understand the theory, and from what I've experienced so far.

Cheers!

From what your saying it sounds like you accumulate shen?

Walker · July 17, 2015

The great way is ultimate simplicity Walker. but all Initiatory systems utilize a "secret language" at the beginning, and middle stages. In other words, definitions, terms.

You can't yank someone out of their old worldview. It takes time. One of the subtle, yet effective ways to do this, is through language.

Another way is diet (The Human mental construct/Animal Spirit One Two punch).

Once you've changed their language, diet, and gotten them to do Initial breathing exercises, meditation, & mantras for some time, THEN you can start the process of simplification. Once the process activates, you'll do it automatically.

Cheers!

I don't disagree, but any beginner here will be met with a deluge of vastly complex, seemingly-contradictory, and unwieldy ideas that don't wholly come from the -ism this subforum is named for. Daoists as a whole in person and writing alike don't really tend to talk about lots of what this conversation has turned into, for more than one reason. That fact doesn't negate the validity of any of you fellows' experiences and ideas, but I think it is worthwhile even so to let those beginners who don't speak/read Chinese and don't have access to traditional Daoists know that the common uses of the word shen in China are not usually what appears in this thread.

LAOLONG · July 17, 2015

Shen is high mind energy .yin shen is

perseiving empty mind

( esp in west parapsychology).

Yang shen is the transmitting high mind .

LAOLONG · July 17, 2015

A taoist sage has both aspect of shen energy,yin shen and yang shen. Yang shen is able to effect matter ( mind over matter ) and (imagination become reality )

Infolad1 · July 17, 2015

I don't disagree, but any beginner here will be met with a deluge of vastly complex, seemingly-contradictory, and unwieldy ideas that don't wholly come from the -ism this subforum is named for. Daoists as a whole in person and writing alike don't really tend to talk about lots of what this conversation has turned into, for more than one reason. That fact doesn't negate the validity of any of you fellows' experiences and ideas, but I think it is worthwhile even so to let those beginners who don't speak/read Chinese and don't have access to traditional Daoists know that the common uses of the word shen in China are not usually what appears in this thread.

You make a great point Walker. I'm fortunate, In that my Sifu is adept at Mandarin, Cantonese, & Taiwanese, so

I'm aware of the MANY meanings of the various terms used here. It really does help give you a more rounded perspective, and shows you how rigid , yet off the mark Westerners have become In the usage of said terms.

So yeah, an actual Daoist would look at all of this and basically go, "uhh...okaay."LOL!

Shen Is Consciousness. that's about It

Cheers!

Edited July 17, 2015 by Infolad1

Infolad1 · July 17, 2015

Yea infolad this is definitely going nowhere quick. At some point I think we should learn that folks are gonna have different opinions and that, at the end of the day, their knowledge and experience is going to be relative, especially if they are involved in an internet forum. It doesn't matter if you got a ph.D in a field or you're just an internet enthusiast of a subject, no one here can honestly come close to knowing every 1% of what there is to be known and experienced about life on this small planet called Earth, let alone the UNIVERSE or ones beyond this universe. We honestly can't even confirm if physical laws even act the same in all the planets in our own solar system, let alone others So what the hell is the point of us here, who are honestly supposed to be gaining our knowledge from experience far more than from theoretical musings, in wasting energy battling with ideas? Just sayin', there's a whole lot more we could be expressing in learning from each other's experiences rather than being turned off by others thoughts or perhaps being turned off by another's experience because it doesn't fit what you have seen or heard. Not wrackin' on any one person, but seriously theoretical debates are grown folks ways of showing they aren't that "grown" after all.

The only thing I would say here is that a lot of initiatory schools rely on language, but that's not necessarily a good thing. The history of most spiritual disciplines are wrought with overwhelming failure and also complacence with failure. And in using language, in an effort to spread teachings rather than letting it spread organically (allowing students to come through genuine vibrational resonance), original simple spiritual teachings were degraded into religious movements that greatly bastardized the original teachings. It wasn't that students needed language to understand these things, it was that followers were trying to use complicated language, fables, and constructs to convince people to practice a way that they honestly should not be in to. All major known traditions are guilty of trying to "sell" their system, with all sorts of noblisms attached to it like being "saviors" of mankind or establishing "Unity" consciousness. But that language was there for the very reason you said, to yank people out of their world view. Problem is, that effort has largely been a humongous failure in terms of people honestly changing their worldview. Meanwhile, people who would get the first time around, for the sake of appeasing everyone, are running through loops that are completely unnecessary.

Just look at this conversation here. It has honestly because a heaping mess of over-complication that, at the end of the day, didn't reach any resolution aside from the one you entered in here with: disagreement. Now I'm not saying it's bad, only you guys can say that. However, it doesn't seem like a lot of time and effort to remain at the same conclusion that was reached quite some time earlier in the conversation, know what I mean? Now I've talked to you before infolad, so you know I ain't doggin' you and that if you are doing what you got to do, then it's fine with me (and who cares if it wasn't). But overall, I honestly do feel that this type of shit does get extremely old as a human proclivity overall, na'mean? Let's just cultivate, share what we find, and then live life. It's really not that damn hard hahahaha.

Yeah, It went completely off the rails at the end. LOL!

I just wanted to take the opportunity to Illustrate were a lot of these discussions go wrong.

You're absolutely right. It's about practice, and relaying your experience. That's It.

A lot of folks are wired, and conditioned to take a fundamentalist approach to things, regardless of the subject matter.

When you field strip It down, there is no difference In the arguments of atheists versus theists (as an example), by the book cultivators versus more eclectic cultivators.

Direct experience, and being able to replicate this with others, is the only real determinant for any of this. Without this, it's all just belief, & wishful thinking.

As I like to say to my students, "I don't care how you get there (Enlightenment), as long as you get there".

Language is ALWAYS a double edged sword (that's why the Psychoid Archetype that governs language, & the Intellect, Is known as both The Opener, AND The Closer of The Way. Thoughts and words can do both).

You can only assimilate so many bits of Information at a time, so something ALWAYS gets lost when translating knowledge to In-Form-ation. Cultural upbringing, education level, etc. always throw noise into the signal, unfortunately.

But since language is such a major part of our lives, the attempt must be made to utilize it as best as possible on the path.

There's a reason why you see the pyramid as a symbol in a number of cultures. One of those is that as people walk the path back home, the higher up you go, the more people get knocked off, due to the reasons you outlined. "The Warning to Practitioner's Chapter of the Surangama Sutra taught by Shakyamuni Buddha to Ananda" Illustrates a number of ways that this happens well.

I actually already knew this conversation wouldn't reach a resolution. Conversations with fundamentalists never do. It was done as a way to lay out my viewpoints on these matters, so people could research, and decide for themselves.

You know my m.o., the1gza. I lay out the data, along with my experiences, and let folks come to their own conclusions, Ideally through application, and practice.

I know you're not doggin' me Bro. It's all Kool and the Gang.

You're right. Conversations like this do get old. Hopefully this'll be the last one of this type that we see.

(Okay, all of you stop laughing at that last line! LOL!)

Cheers!

Edited July 17, 2015 by Infolad1

Infolad1 · July 17, 2015

Shen is high mind energy .yin shen is

perseiving empty mind

( esp in west parapsychology).

Yang shen is the transmitting high mind .

Extra-Sensory Perception occurs at all levels of the process, not just Shen.

These perceptions are just expanded, the higher up you go. that's all.

Most folks already have, and use esp. They just write It off as "coincidences",

"miracles", and "luck".

Cheers!

Edited July 17, 2015 by Infolad1

Infolad1 · July 17, 2015

A taoist sage has both aspect of shen energy,yin shen and yang shen. Yang shen is able to effect matter ( mind over matter ) and (imagination become reality )

Please see my reply to your previous post.

Cheers!

LAOLONG · July 17, 2015

Yang shen and yin shen play a roll in mind to mind transmission. In the high level all the knowledge can be transmitted in a second (Tibet Buddhism, when a lama pass away)

voidisyinyang · July 17, 2015

Both Wave (Yin/Mother/Matter), And Particle (Yang/Father/Pattern), Interacting with each other, within a closed system

This is a typical Western New Age imposition on Taoism.

Hilarious!!!!

Just as you tried to impose your muons and classical physics onto Taoism.

Hilarious!!!!

People like to spew a bunch of lies.

You say "only" the de Broglie model shows real non-local entanglement? Oh wait - that is some unattributable quote you posted - try posting links with quotes.

The de Broglie–Bohm theory is today the only interpretation giving real status to matter-waves and representing the predictions of quantum theory.

If that is true then only the de Broglie model is correct. haha.

Certainly the foundation of reality is not defined by quanta particles.

I posted the experiments yes - science has proven a non-local entanglement foundation to reality.

http://www.wired.com/2014/06/the-new-quantum-reality/

Check out this new article - "We have been interpreting quantum mechanics wrong the whole time?"

When it says We - that also means you in this thread. haha. Not me though.

The bizarre results are fueling interest in an almost forgotten version of quantum mechanics, one that never gave up the idea of a single, concrete reality.

So if you want to throw out science terms next time - refer to this stuff.

The link that you put up as proof of de Broglie's theory, did no such thing. It just showed experiments that have been done,

that validate quantum entanglement, what Einstein called, "spooky action at a distance".

Scientists already figured out that he was wrong about this.

You didn't read the article very closely.

for the first time demonstrated Albert Einstein's original conception of "spooky action at a distance" using a single particle.

Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2015-03-quantum-einstein-spooky-action-distance.html#jCp

and you misunderstand me again:

And then you bring In Pythagoras to the mix:

You: "De Broglie realized this violates a basic fundamental principle of science - the Law of Pythagoras that time as wavelength is inverse to frequency as energy".

Let's see about Pythagaros' contributions to science, shall we?:

The "Law of Pythagoras" is not the same as Orthodox Pythagorean teachings.

I'm not trying to say Pythagoras contributed to "science" - quite the contrary - Western science is based on a big lie

about Orthodox Pythagorean teachings which were akin to real Taoism.

De Broglie noted that relativity theory predicts that, when such a particle is set in motion, its total relativistic energy will increase, tending to infinity as the speed of light is approached. Likewise, the period of the internal phenomenon assumed to be associated with the particle will also increase (due to time dilation). Since period and frequency are inversely related, a period increase is equivalent to a decrease of frequency and, hence, of the energy given by the quantum relation hf. It was this apparent incompatibility between the tendency of the relativistic energy to increase and the quantum energy to decrease that troubled de Broglie.

The manner in which de Broglie resolved this apparent contradiction is the subject of the famous 1923 Comptes rendus note [Comptes rendus de l'Académie des Sciences, vol. 177, pp. 507-510 (1923)].

http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Physics-Louis-de-Broglie.htm

De Broglie was at the foundation of quantum physics - his analysis is based on Fourier Uncertainty which is the foundation of quantum physics.

You keep referring to the particle - but I already showed you a new experiment that has proven that the first particle is actually a non-local wave.

They found that 'wave-particle duality' is simply the quantum 'uncertainty principle' in disguise, reducing two mysteries to one.

Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2014-12-quantum-physics-complicated.html#jCp

More proof for you.

So claiming any particle at the foundation of reality is a lie about science along with a lie about Taoism.

You're projecting your wrong classical physics bias onto Taoism.

You say I'm getting off topic - I'm not the one who spewed the lies on this thread - so I have a responsibility to point the lies out.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

Infolad1 · July 17, 2015

Please get back on topic, or I'm contacting the moderator.

You're now officially attempting to derail this thread.

I said that I agree to disagree with you, and let others decide.

I have absolutely no ego in this. None.

Yet you keep writing about a topic that's not pertinent to the thread.

We discussed it, & offered our viewpoints for others to read.

Please stop now.

Good Fortune!

Cheers!

Infolad1 · July 17, 2015

Well, thanks for the reply.

On the one hand, there is indeed record that Pythagoras went to Egypt and learned there. On the other hand, Egyptian religion tended toward the cataphatic whereas the Pythagorean religion (most markedly discernible with the tetractys) emphasized the apophatic.

If you gave attention to what is known about Pythagoras through a number of his disciples and historical commentators, then it should be noted that most of the "philosophy" was action-oriented; it is not found in writings unless a member broke away from the action-oriented tenets of the "philosophy".

The nature of the ideas, especially if you try to use them this way, is to train the mind; it's not just punsterism---the means by which it is structured is to be like yogasana for the mind---and it requires a lot of going back to the idea after having rid yourself of differing personal conceptions of what the idea means.

The performative quality of the terms sticks a fork in the notion that "words are a description"---that is, they can be but that is not how they are to be fruitfully used.

In a way, no-thing is most certainly a foundation for everything. But stating it like this divorces the notion of no-thing from how it is legitimately understood. On the one hand, it can be arrived at through symmetric logic (which is done in Buddhism and Hinduism with the logic of locus and neti-neti methods and so on). On the other hand, symmetric methods don't take your mind directly to it; they just say that it somehow is the case. The music-theoretic model (and practices) in union with a performative conception and use of language take you directly there as long as you are not resisting the process.

In many ways, the quote you supply is apt; the foundational difference is that using words as a closed and self-referential system is limited---"of the Devil", if you will---because it draws you away from fully utilizing the inherently open nature of the mind and reality.

The "I" of Hume is off-topic; the Hume-ean "I" is a fairly well established reference point---it's not the notion of ego but a bracket for his chosen context (which is situated about perceptual faculty---Hume was an empiricist, after all).

With regards to keeping it simple, you can't actually get simpler than the core ideas mentioned above; it simply says abandon ideas and put more time and attention to what's sitting in front of you. It takes a roundabout way of articulating it because language is dominated by words that refer explicitly and near-exclusively to other words but, with the terms chosen here, it should hopefully be clear that the world apart from our chosen symbols is where attention needs to be (and looking at symbols won't get you any closer to it).

Furthermore, if the last paragraph is understood, then the objections to classical physics should be made obvious; the music-theoretic model incorporates a performative method for direct connection to emptiness; classical physics does not (it just keeps you in the "Playing God" mindset where you can be a lord over your chosen symbols and project the symbols over reality). You can see this pattern in how our science developed; there is a short time spent gathering data and a long time doctoring it into something apparently coherent.

With this in mind, the only simulation is the one you hold together when you only use the small (symbolic) section of the mind; hyperreality began when symbols took precedence over direct perception.

---In a lot of ways, we agree. But, if this notion is taken seriously, then it really seems that bringing classical physics into the mix obscures what matters most and brings in a lot of tag-along ideas and mental habits that are contrary to the actual practice.

Thanks for your reply.

As someone whose practiced the spiritual cultivation system of the Ancient Egyptians (Pre-Dynastic to 5th Dynasty Models) for the past 19 years, your statement Is incorrect. So I have to address this.

Then can we all PLEASE get back on topic? Thanks.

Ancient Egyptian culture was both cataphatic, and apophatic. Initial stages are descriptive of Nebertcher's (The Lord of All) qualities, functioning in both the phenomenal, and noumenal realms.

At the higher levels of Initiation, through meditation work that's the equivalent of Qigong, Shen Gong, & Tao Gong, the Initiate has direct experience of themselves first as Ausar (Ausares/Osiris), then as it's true nature (Amen/Hetep/Nirvana).

By the very nature of the work, words aren't utilized at this point. they can't be.

The Ancient Egyptians were very clear about the fact that you can't give a name, a description to "God". All of their "Names", or actually describing it's effects In the world, not the reality itself. That's not possible with words.

As an analogy, we don't experience sound. We experience sound's effects on the environment. So we're giving a description, understanding that it's not the actual reality.

When you field strip down all Scientific terms, it boils down to this.

We're describing the graphics engine, not the creator of the engine.

Unless you do spiritual cultivation work to get outside of the simulation, and see the true reality behind it,

then all you're doing is attempting use the AI (Intellect) that we've all been given (And which has set parameters

that limit what it can, and can't do) to talk about things beyond it's capacity.

People who do this then fall into the "dog chasing it's own tail" fallacy.

The thing about logic, is that you can reason about any thing. But Is the premise correct?

You see it all the time. People utilizing beautifully realized deductive, and Inductive reasoning. but their

premises are resting on quicksand.

Puns are a highly effective way to alter thought patterns, specifically in a state of altered consciousness

(Trance states are the only time that you can reprogram both the spirit, and mind. Fortunately, people go into

trance states on the average of seven times a day, accepting all kinds of images, & thoughts.

These are known as "thought drift", "reveries", "daydreaming", etc.)

You: "If you gave attention to what is known about Pythagoras"...

That's actually my point Apeiron&Peiron. Nothing is known about Pythagaros. It's all heresay:

"Many of the accomplishments credited to Pythagoras may actually have been accomplishments of his colleagues and successors. Some accounts mention that the philosophy associated with Pythagoras was related to mathematics and that numbers were important. It was said that he was the first man to call himself a philosopher, or lover of wisdom, and Pythagorean ideas exercised a marked influence on Aristotle, and Plato, and through him, all of Western philosophy".

hear·say

ˈhirˌsā/

noun

information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor.

At the end of the day, just about everything that people "think" they know In life, is heresay.

Western thought is based on a combination of heresay, and empiricism ( data from the five senses). As long as you're aware of this, It can be utilized, which I do, understanding It can only do so much, and go so far.

You don't take mind to no thing. no thing is it's foundation. It's already there. What you're talking about is the persona (per sona = A thing through which sound comes through).

language is dominated by words that refer explicitly and near-exclusively to other words

Couldn't agree with you more. No thing (which is what a word is) has a quality in, and of itself.

It's only in relation to other words that meaning is grasped. But words can never convey the reality

behind them. We have to do that (and when I say "we", I'm referring to "mind", not"persona", or "Intellect" )

Apeiron&Peiron, all words can ever do Is give a description. That's what they're built to do.

The only exception to what I just said are mantras, words of power, which have no inherent meaning.

The actually DO things, not just describe. These were used extensively in Ancient Egypt (All of the actual

names of the Neteru (so-called "gods") have their respective mantras built into them (Ausar=Aum:said nasally,

with an "ng"=aung). This is the reason why the Greek names for them are incorrect).

Images are above language. They're a direct plug into the "Psychospiritual World" as Wolfgang Pauli

described it. "Unus Mundus ("Whole World") was the term Jung used.

Images are the gate to direct perception. Anyone whose utilized mandalas, and yantras, or has worked in advertising knows that.

Jung was the Sage that the West needed, and ignored, to it's detriment.

I'm discussing modern physics, not classical. Also tying In Information theory, digital physics, the work of

Dr. James Oschman, and the "Orch OR" Theory of Sir Roger Penrose, with Dr. Stuart Hameroff (with caveats.

I don't agree with all of them completely, but who agrees with anyone completely? )

To my personal satisfaction, I've confirmed that this is all a simulation (to be poetical about It, we are all "Dreams In The Mind of God". But that's not completely accurate). We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

We do agree on a lot Apeiron&Peiron. I see a lot of the divergence as, "You say tomato, I say tomata". )

At the end of the day, we're both searching for the same thing: Enlightenment. A noble, and worthy cause.

Thanks for a great discussion.

You can wrap up with your reply.

Then can we please get back on topic. Thanks

Cheers!

Infolad1 · July 17, 2015

Well, if you delve into the cultivation of emptiness, it relates directly to the ability to cultivate shen.....

but it is something that actually needs to be practiced rather than pondered.

The saints in the west did this through theosis....except since their methods were indirect, most failed and only a handful were successful.

To go back to post #1:

So this is still very much on topic---although, Spotless had been more direct and timely with its mention....

I greatly apologize Apeiron&Peiron. I was addressing what Innersoundqigong had put up earlier, and forgot to put

his name at the beginning.

What I said wasn't directed to you. Again, my apologies.

Cheers!

Infolad1 · July 17, 2015

Hi MooNiNite. I apologize for the delay in getting back.

You don't accumulate Shen. You purify your Qi, so that you open up

into Shen. Shen is already there. You just have to purify yourself

to accept this. To "let go", "die to the world", "cross the abyss".

They're various terms for this part of the process.

You're not actually dying. you're letting go of the Illusions

that obstruct the true reality.

I love how one Master described It:

"It's like being at the train station. you're looking all around for who you're

supposed to meet (Shen/Divine Spirit), but you can't see them because of the crowd

(Incorrect thoughts, and Images).

Then suddenly you turn around and go, "OH! THERE you are! I've been looking all over

for you! But you were here all the time!"

That's what we're doing.

Cheers!

MooNiNite · July 18, 2015

Hi MooNiNite. I apologize for the delay in getting back.

You don't accumulate Shen. You purify your Qi, so that you open up

into Shen. Shen is already there. You just have to purify yourself

to accept this. To "let go", "die to the world", "cross the abyss".

They're various terms for this part of the process.

You're not actually dying. you're letting go of the Illusions

that obstruct the true reality.

I love how one Master described It:

"It's like being at the train station. you're looking all around for who you're

supposed to meet (Shen/Divine Spirit), but you can't see them because of the crowd

(Incorrect thoughts, and Images).

Then suddenly you turn around and go, "OH! THERE you are! I've been looking all over

for you! But you were here all the time!"

That's what we're doing.

Cheers!

My comment was in response to you talking about cultivating yang shen especially with regards to bodies.

Edited July 18, 2015 by MooNiNite

Infolad1 · July 18, 2015

My comment was in response to you talking about cultivating yang shen especially with regards to bodies.

Oh, okay.

The above still applies.

Look at It In terms of the electromagnetic spectrum. Being able to go higher up In frequency, takes you into

a higher level radiation.

This is the reality of what's being done here. Your body changes to accommodate this radiation, which is what Shen Is.

Here's a breakdown of the transformation sequence below, from William Bodri's Stages course:

"TIMELINES FOR THE VARIOUS SEQUENCES OF TRANSFORMATION

Taoism is a most useful cultivation school—perhaps the most useful--for

explaining spiritual evolution according to the various physical transformations that

can occur along the cultivation path. Furthermore, it is especially useful for having

identified the general time sequences of these processes, and for having linked itself

with the Chinese medical field as one of its outer garments. In review, we must

remember that the various time sequences of cultivation transformation run

generally as follows:

Time Required Name of Cultivation Stage Biophysical Transformations Involved

100 days “Building the Foundation” Initial transformation of jing to chi

10 months “Pregnancy” Completing the transformation of jing to chi, starting the transformation of chi to shen

3 years “Suckling the Baby” Completing the chi to shen

transformation, starting the

transformation of shen to emptiness

9 year “Facing the Wall” Completing the shen to emptiness transformation, and starting to abandon emptiness for the Tao

Indeterminate “Breaking Emptiness and Achieving a state of neither existence Returning to Tao” nor non-existence (emptiness)

We can also summarize this set of sequences by saying:

It is said that “Building up the foundation in one hundred days” is the

preliminary stage required for transmutation of ching into ch’i, and that

“pregnancy for ten months” is the preliminary stage necessary for the

transmutation of ch’i into shen. “To suckle for three years” is the

beginning of the transmutation of shen into void or emptiness. Finally,

“facing the wall for nine years” is the last step required for breaking up

the empty space.58 Tao and Longevity: Mind-Body Transformation, Nan Huai-Chin,

trans. by Wen Kuan Chu (Samuel Weiser, York Beach: Maine, 1991), p. 85.

As Taoism always emphasizes, if you cultivate correctly, not only will your

internal esoteric substances of jing, chi and shen transform according to a well

established, sequential process of alchemical reactions, but your corporeal, physical

body will transform along with these spiritual changes as well. In general, the

physical body will transform according to the following general scheme we

previously mentioned which correlates to the transformations expected between jing,

chi, and shen:

After one year of practice, your chi will be transformed.

After two years of practice, your blood will be transformed.

After three years, your mai (blood vessels, nerves and energy channels) will be transformed.

After four years, your muscles (flesh) will be transformed.

After five years, your bone marrow will be transformed.

After six years, your sinews and tendons will be transformed.

After seven years, your bones will be transformed.

After eight years, your hair will be transformed.

After nine years of cultivation, your entire bodily form (shape) will be transformed.

No matter how smart you are, no matter how wise you are, no matter what

substances you might wish to ingest to speed up this process, no matter how high

your stage of spiritual attainment, there is a limit to how much you can rush this

process of physical transformation. Because these transformations involve the

physical body, there is a natural limit as to how much faster you can make them

transpire.

The reason you can’t rush this process is because it invariably requires a

specific amount of time—given our human bodies--in order to change the physical

structures of this human body. Even a fully enlightened Buddha has to wait roughly

this same amount of time for these transformations to become complete, just as a

child cannot speed up the time required to pass through puberty. Of course with

prajna wisdom these physical changes might happen a little bit more quickly and

they will certainly occur with less side troubles, but all true cultivators have to pass

through them nonetheless."

Bodri sometimes describes it as an 18 year sequence, but as you can see, the last stage

is an indeterminate length of time.

You're transforming a body that operates within the constraints of space and time,

into something that can operate beyond them, so it's going to take a minute for the

transformation to occur. No getting around that.

The thing I love about Bodri's work, Is that I went through a number of the physical changes first,

THEN I discovered his work, and saw that It matched up with my own experience, to a T.

Look at the transformation stages as a guideline MooNiNite. Don't take It to be literal. Your mileage may vary.

Cheers!

Edited July 18, 2015 by Infolad1

Infolad1 · July 18, 2015

LOL! D'oh!

Cheers!

Edited July 18, 2015 by Infolad1

Is the crown chakra ,shen .

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