Taoist paradise

[LAOLONG]

IN the biblical story Adam and eve are thrown out from paradise after eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge (in the Hebrew text).in Taoism by forgetting

 

words and knowledge the taoist return to paradise, where is the tree of life (immortality).

[Marblehead]

The tree of life.  The wisdom of the ancients.  Paradise.

 

All concepts of our inner essence.  They are not to be found externally.

 

The Garden of Eden is just a fairy tale.  Made up by priests who wanted to be the only ones who could attain knowledge and therefore have full control of the people.

[Aetherous]

Who in Daoism says that we were in paradise but forgot...and what Daoist path recommends learning with words and knowledge to remember the paradise state?

 

These things might be assumptions that have no reality in Daoism.

[the1gza]

Oh my God, let's not get to the Bible. Can we please can this discussion now so that folks don't start erroneously speaking for or against it with the same surface-level arguments that are always there?

[LAOLONG]

What i meant that Taoist paradise is here on earth, nature ,trees, birds ,cat's , and so on, when one is empty mind state he enjoy paradise .others mind is full of thoughts, words, so thy are out from Paradise.

[Marblehead]

Yes, this is already paradise.  But we can make it a hell if we try real hard.

[Aetherous]

What i meant that Taoist paradise is here on earth, nature ,trees, birds ,cat's , and so on, when one is empty mind state he enjoy paradise .others mind is full of thoughts, words, so thy are out from Paradise.

 

I'm not even sure that idea is a part of Daoism...although it is pretty much true.

[Marblehead]

I'm not even sure that idea is a part of Daoism...although it is pretty much true.

You are correct, IMO.  Paradise is not, at least, a Philosophical concept.  There is that one story though about the retired general going to see the Sage and the Sage offers the general a look at the difference between heaven and hell.

[soaring crane]

Isn't the A&E story about the danger of non-dualistic thinking?

[Manaus]

Strictly following @the1gza advice, can I add that Paradise means orchard? Not a place of serenity above [or among] the clouds, but a garden on this (better 'that') Earth where man and woman lived in harmony with nature? 

Edited July 14, 2015 by Manaus

[the1gza]

Isn't the A&E story about the danger of non-dualistic thinking?

I think it's actually the opposite. The Tree of "Good and Evil" was the first mention of something man had a hold of that was dualistic. It was the Tree of all Knowledge, if it was then Adam and Eve wouldn't even be able to move. But Adam could name things, identify all sorts of food, knew that he had a companion in Eve (and vice versa)... he had plenty of knowledge to begin with. He also didn't need the Knowledge of Good and Evil to be able to experience differentiation, so it's clear that the Tree of Knowledge is a tree of a specific type of knowledge, and that is only of Good & Evil. It does not also mean that Adam had no knowledge of Good, or possibly vice versa. But one of those he did not have, and consiering what he gained from it, which was the knowledge of Lack, Toil, Pain in Birth (Creation), and Suffering, it is implied that Evil was the knowledge he did not have. Now if viewed in a literal, according to us, sense, then everyone thinks it's "God" who punished Adam (which is a very poor way of looking at it considering that God told them what was going to happen to them rather than "doing" it to them). But if we look at it from an "action-consequence standpoint, then the A&E story can serve as an allegory for how man came upon dualistic dependence and how man's current state of living is a consequence of that dependence.

 

Oh man, this is why I don't do cultural comparisons. 

[Kongming]

Paradises of various sorts are all memories of both celestial states of being and the so-called Golden Age (Hesiod) or Satya Yuga of Hinduism, and in turn memories of when men 'walked with the gods', i.e. when humanity had a stronger connection with the Divine (or Dao, etc.) during the primordial past (antediluvian periods, etc.) The Edenic paradise is another variation on this theme, as are memories of Atlantis, Hyperborea, etc. or memories of the ancient sages of Daoism. Mountains like Kunlun, Olympus, and Meru, as well as paradisal lands such as Avalon, Elysium, Tir na Nog, Annwn, Atzlan, Airyanem Vaejah, Asgard, and Penglai are also related to this, albeit often associated with postmortem states, reflecting the non-earthly or transcendent nature of these paradises.

 

Henry Corbin, in his book Cyclical Time and Ismaili Gnosis touches upon this situation from a Mazdean/Zoroastrian perspective and is worth quoting here:

 

 

A little manual of Mazdean doctrine, written in Pahlavi and dating from the fourth century of our era, contains a number of questions the answers to which everyone over the age of fifteen is supposed to know. The first questions are : "Who am I and to whom do I belong? Whence have I come and whither am I returning? What is my lineage and what is my race ? What is my proper calling in earthly existence? Did I come from the celestial world, or is it in the earthly world that I began to be? Do I belong to Ohrmazd or to Ahriman? To the angels or the demons?"

And here are the answers :

I came from the celestial world (menok), it is not in the terrestrial world (getik) that I began to be. I was originally manifested in the spiritual state, my original state is not the terrestrial state. I belong to Ohrmazd (Ahura Mazda, the Lord Wisdom), not to Ahriman (the Spirit of Evil and of Darkness); I belong to the angels, not to the demons. I am the creature of Ohrmazd, not the creature of Ahriman. I hold my lineage and my race from Gayomart (primordial Man, Anthropos). My mother is Spandarmat (Angel of the Earth), my father is Ohrmazd. The accomplishment of my vocation consists in this: to think of Ohrmazd as present Existence (hastih), which has always existed (ham e-butih), and will always exist (hame-bavetih). To think of him as immortal sovereignty, as Unlimitation and Purity. To think of Ahriman as pure negativity (nestih), exhausting himself in nothingness (avinbutlh), as the Evil Spirit who formerly did not exist in this Creation, and who one day will cease to exist in Ohrmazd's Creation and who will collapse at the final time. To consider my true self as belonging to Ohrmazd and the Archangels (Amahraspandan).

 

 

Hence paradise is at once an ontological state that can be reintegrated into (apocatastasis, enlightenment, etc.) and a collective memory of the deep ancient past when men's spiritual faculties were much greater, strongly contrasted with our own time, namely the Kali Yuga.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Kongming

[dawei]

You are correct, IMO.  Paradise is not, at least, a Philosophical concept.  There is that one story though about the retired general going to see the Sage and the Sage offers the general a look at the difference between heaven and hell.

 

Also from ZZ:

 

The men of old dwelt in the midst of crudity and chaos; side by side with the rest of the world, they attained simplicity and silence there. At that time, the Yin and Yang were harmonious and still, ghosts and spirits worked no mischief, the four seasons kept to their proper order, the ten thousand things knew no injury, and living creatures were free from premature death.

 

Although men had knowledge, they did not use it.  This was called the Perfect Unity. At this time, no one made a move to do anything, and there was unvarying spontaneity. 

 

- Tr. Burton