Daois as an offshot of Early Buddhism

[Apech]

.....

 

And there is that Daosim thing that was the reason of this topic. What to think of this linguistic theory about Dao = Dharma and Lao Tan = Gautama ?

 

The author has a good philosophical intuition, but he wrote an history book. Nonetheless it is a very stimulating read and if I find it problematic, it is in a good way, because I made me aksing a lot of interesting questions.

 

If it is really a linguistic theory then he would have to show common etymological roots between Dao and Dharma, related core meaning and some pathway of sound shifts.  If he doesn't then I would suggest he is being provocative because there is nothing to relate them except they both begin with 'd'. 

[Kongming]

Despite the reputation of the European middle ages as a dark epoch, there was a "small renaissance" occurring with the influx of that kind of knowledge as passed on by the Arabs via Spain and Sicily, and revolving around minds like Roger Bacon, Raymond Lull and Albertus Magnus.

 

I am personally of the opinion that the European Middle Ages' reputation for being a dark epoch is unfounded and that an influx of knowledge from the Islamic world isn't the only bright light or even the primary source of light or 'renaissance' during the period. A good book in this regard is Those Terrible Middle Ages: Debunking the Myths by Regine Pernoud. 

 

After all, the Middle Ages produced Gothic architecture, Gregorian chant, European polyphony, various advances in technology, great literature and poetry, and a variety of great philosophers and mystics, such as John Scotus Eriugena, the Victorines, the author of the Cloud of Unknowing, Dante, Meister Eckhart, Johannes Tauler, Nicholas of Cusa, etc. along with esotericism surrounding the Knights Templar, the Grail cycle, and medieval alchemy/Hermeticism.  All and all a great era, and as once Juan Donoso Cortes praised that civilization:

 

 

Place people in sight of the pyramids of Egypt, and they will tell you, “Here has passed a grand and barbarous civilisation.” Place them in sight of the Grecian statues and temples, and they will tell you, “Here has passed a graceful, ephemeral, and brilliant civilisation.” Place them in sight of a Roman monument, and they will tell you, “Here has passed a great people.” Place them in sight of a cathedral, and on beholding such majesty united to such beauty, such grandeur to such taste, such grace to such delicacy, such severe unity to such rich variety, such measure to such boldness, such heaviness in the stones, with such suavity in their outlines, and such wonderful harmony between silence and light, shade and colour, they will tell you,

 

Here has passed the greatest people of history, and the most astounding of human civilisations: that people must have taken grandeur from the Egyptian, brilliancy from the Greek, strength from the Roman, and, beyond the strength, the brilliancy, and grandeur, something more valuable than grandeur, strength, and brilliancy — immortality and perfection.

 

In any case, regarding the original topic, I doubt Daoism is an offshoot of earliest Buddhism, but it could have had contacts with some Indo-European spiritual tradition via the Tocharians that may have influenced it and hence would have been related to the spiritual family that gave birth to Buddhism, but even that is conjecture. Often when people encounter similarities in spiritual or esoteric traditions, they ask "Did this influence this?" when it might not be a matter of influence but rather different traditions and people encountering the same truths, the same obstacles on the way to that truth, the same intuitions about reality, etc. Hence to so-called Sophia Perrenis and the striking similarities between the heights of truth found in Daoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sufism, Christian mysticism, etc.

[Aithrobates]

If it is really a linguistic theory then he would have to show common etymological roots between Dao and Dharma, related core meaning and some pathway of sound shifts.  If he doesn't then I would suggest he is being provocative because there is nothing to relate them except they both begin with 'd'. 

 

To be more accurate: The author argues that the word Dharma would have been prononced *Darma in ancient chinese and that the normal evolution of this word in mordern chinese is Dao. He never implied that the two words were etymologycally related. But that the sounds of sanskrit Dharma would shift to Dao via the inherent mechanisms of sound changes in chinese language evolution.

 

In a nutshell:

 

Dharma --- Sanskrit to Old Chinese ---> *Darma

                           then

*Darma --- Old to new Chinese ---------> Dao

 

And same thing for Gautama > Kao Tan, prononced Lao Tan because of an alternate spelling.

[Apech]

To be more accurate: The author argues that the word Dharma would have been prononced *Darma in ancient chinese and that the normal evolution of this word in mordern chinese is Dao. He never implied that the two words were etymologycally related. But that the sounds of sanskrit Dharma would shift to Dao via the inherent mechanisms of sound changes in chinese language evolution.

 

In a nutshell:

 

 

And same thing for Gautama > Kao Tan, prononced Lao Tan because of an alternate spelling.

 

 

Yeah I get that but it needs some serious backing up to be a real theory and not just a nice idea.

[Geof Nanto]

To be more accurate: The author argues that the word Dharma would have been prononced *Darma in ancient chinese and that the normal evolution of this word in mordern chinese is Dao. He never implied that the two words were etymologycally related. But that the sounds of sanskrit Dharma would shift to Dao via the inherent mechanisms of sound changes in chinese language evolution.

 

I'm no expert on the Chinese language, but to my understanding we have no way of knowing the pronunciation of words in ancient China. 

[Aithrobates]

Here's what he says:

 

Modern Standard Chinese dào form Early Middle Chinese *daw₂ form Old Chinese *dawᴚ

The  ending in *ᴚ would signify that *dawᴚ is Late Old Chinese from Old Chinese *dawᴚa

Which could be a metathesis of *daᴚwa

As *m and *w alternate in Old Chinese we have *daᴚwa ~ *daᴚma : /darma/

 

Now whe need a Bum with a very good knowledge of Chinese, to says what he/she thinks about that.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Aithrobates

[Zhongyongdaoist]

If it is really a linguistic theory then he would have to show common etymological roots between Dao and Dharma, related core meaning and some pathway of sound shifts. If he doesn't then I would suggest he is being provocative because there is nothing to relate them except they both begin with 'd'.

 

Yeah I get that but it needs some serious backing up to be a real theory and not just a nice idea.

 

The Wikipedia article on Beckwith, is short on details, but ends with these three review references:

 

 

Reviews

• Hitch, Doug (2010). "Empires of the Silk Road: A History of Central Eurasia from the Bronze Age to the Present" (PDF). Journal of the American Oriental Society 130 (4): 654–658. JSTOR 23044587.
• Jones-Bley, Karlene; Huld, Martin E. (2010). "Empires of the Silk Road: A History of Central Eurasia from the Bronze Age to the Present" (PDF). Journal of Indo-European Studies 38 (3&4): 431–443.
• Pellard, Thomas (2005). "Koguryo, the Language of Japan's Continental Relatives: An Introduction to the Historical-Comparative Study of the Japanese-Koguryoic Languages with a Preliminary Description of Archaic Northeastern Middle Chinese". Korean Studies (University of Hawaii Press) 29: 167–170. doi:10.1353/ks.2006.0008.

 

All of them expressing reservations about various aspects of Beckwith's books, here is an example related to the Indo-European/Chinese connection:

 

Endnote 40. pp. 399-400 says the source of the Chinese language is undoubtedly a result, at least in part. of the Indo-European intrusion into the area [the area covered by the Shang Dynasty]... [but] it is still uncertain whether Chinese is ultimately a minimally maintained Indo-European language or a local language inulucnced by Indo-European." He calls this a largely neglected problem and references three of his own articles. This is quite a surprising statement, and I can think of no reputable Indo-European linguist or Sinologist who would call Chinese a product of IE but most would agree with Pulleyblank that there are loan words. To bolster his argument, Beckwith submits the An rang chariot burials of a 1200 BC. which do have similarities to western chariot burials, but he believes it was not enough just to capture the chariots and hones. He believes that carpenters and trainers were at least initially necessary. Although they may have been helpful in the beginning. I am not convinced they were necessary. By 1200 BC. Chinese would have been a well established language and in vocabulary may well have been Influenced by IE speakers, but it seems unlikely to have changed its basic structure.  (Review of Empires of the Silk Road, Journal of Indo-European Studies 38 (3&4): 431–443.)

 

Apparently his attitudes about Chinese are very idiosyncratic.  All of the reviews note an idiosyncratic tendency in his thinking and discussion.

 

I don't know why there are only these reviews, which are anything but hardy endorsements.  If someone can find some more positive ones, it would be helpful.  Though I suppose that not finding any positive reviews would be helpful also, but in a different way.

 

To my mind the biggest problem with Bechwith's suggestion are the long standing uses of Dao as road or path, including the "path" of a stream or river, and also as method or technique.  It is these usages which i understand go back to Old Chinese and continue in modern Chinese, which make an Indo-European loan word problematic, but a metaphoric extension of "way" to "the way the world works" combined with "method" as the "method for 'success' in the world" makes sense to me.

[Aithrobates]

Thanks for the reference about his position on Chinese. I find him very "original" when it comes to linguistics.

 

He says somewhere that Avestan is not an iranian language but an iranicized indian one. I think he may be the only one claiming that.

 

So no more Sino-tibetan as Chinese is now IE ? And no more Indo-Iranian, as Avestan is not iranian so its similarities with Sankrit do not mean anymore that Old Indian and Old Iranian were close ?

[voidisyinyang]

 

The Wikipedia article on Beckwith, is short on details, but ends with these three review references:

 

 

All of them expressing reservations about various aspects of Beckwith's books, here is an example related to the Indo-European/Chinese connection:

 

 

Apparently his attitudes about Chinese are very idiosyncratic.  All of the reviews note an idiosyncratic tendency in his thinking and discussion.

 

I don't know why there are only these reviews, which are anything but hardy endorsements.  If someone can find some more positive ones, it would be helpful.  Though I suppose that not finding any positive reviews would be helpful also, but in a different way.

 

To my mind the biggest problem with Bechwith's suggestion are the long standing uses of Dao as road or path, including the "path" of a stream or river, and also as method or technique.  It is these usages which i understand go back to Old Chinese and continue in modern Chinese, which make an Indo-European loan word problematic, but a metaphoric extension of "way" to "the way the world works" combined with "method" as the "method for 'success' in the world" makes sense to me.

 

That chariots connection to borrowed INdoEuropean words in Chinese is good but even more so is the rod system of counting - I think that is from INdo-European connection.

 

 

In 1976, a bundle of West Han counting rods made of bones was unearthed from Qian Yang county in Shanxi.^[3] The use of counting rods must predate it; Laozi (6th or 5th century BCE) said "a good calculator doesn't use counting rods".^[4]

 

And so to tie this together - the chariot connection is documented by Abraham Seidenberg in his Ritual Origins of Geometry - that the Brahmin mathematicans used a "squaring of the circle" Pythagorean Theorem procedure to convert circle altars to be the same area more or less of square altars. This same technique was also used to center the circles for chariot wheels.

 

And so in Chinese mathematics you find a similar analysis of the Pythagorean Theorem.

 

But while all of this is interesting - the problem with this dude's linguistic analysis is he ignores the interconnections between geometry and language and mathematical analysis - and the common divider of them is music theory.

 

My own blogbook article goes into the details on this - on Taoist philosophy and non-commutative math and music theory as the origin of the mathematics - which violates the commutative property espoused to by Brahmin phonetic-based logic.

 

So Taoist is older than the Brahmin or Vedic language or chariot math culture which is based on "divide and average" mathematics. Certainly China developed this "divide and average" math culture - but it did so after Taoism - which is why Taoism remained misunderstood and in conflict with Buddhism in many ways.

 

http://innersoundqigong.blogspot.com/2014/04/the-devils-interval-and-pre-established.html

 

http://innersoundqigong.blogspot.com/2015/05/updating-devils-interval-and-deep.html

 

O.K. so the counting rods math in China was never a written down system but when Zero was introduced from India that was based on writing down the mathematics - this is a key difference between left brain dominant (writing down symbols) and right brain dominant (visualizing in the brain math).

 

So then it is pointed out the ancient Chinese counting rods were perfectly happy with negative numbers - but not the Indians - and this is most likely because of the Chinese duality philosophy of yin-yang.

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=f6HlhlBuQUgC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=from+india+to+china+math+counting+rods&source=bl&ots=EAg5QVhem1&sig=6JcsEcvA0-5HoWPbI7e-C3b93LQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CFwQ6AEwDWoVChMIz8Syq6zexgIVVjaICh3Xxgk-#v=onepage&q=from%20india%20to%20china%20math%20counting%20rods&f=false

 

Yeah so I would say the math-music analysis overrides just a linguistic analysis which is based on a lot of speculation.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[Taoist Texts]

the reality was different, the invention traveled on a one way ticket round the Cape of Good Hope.

 

 

So you think that before colonization there was no contacts,

 

 

I know that there were not. When people think of contacts say along the great silk road they imagine a Sindbad type of a merchant on dry land who would hoist his bundles of silk and china on a camel in Harbin showing up two years later on the appian road weary from the trip but carrying his Philosophy and Astronomy and Buddhism with him. That never happened, the trade routes were a long string of merchants and markets with goods changing hands many times before reaching the destination. Nobody would go all the way for obvious reasons. The age of exploration was driven by the need to cut out the excessive middlemen.

 

 

and that Europe, India and China were isolated systems ?

 

Yes, that's why there were different and extremely xenophobic civilizations, and  not one big marketplace for goods or ideas.

 

But wait a second, who on earth would like you to believe that the globe was one big marketplace since time immemorial? Moreover, who on earth would like you to believe that the Europeans produced nothing of their own and were buying goods or ideas from Asia since time immemorial?

 

Could it be the same tricksters who would like the globe be one big marketplace now? Could it be the same tricksters who would like the Europeans to produce nothing of their own and buy goods or ideas from Asia?

 

Duuh. But how could they achieve that? After all it is so natural for a local to go to the local farmers market for produce, to the local tailor for clothes, to the local automaker for a car, to amuse  himself with local plays, sports, news and movies . So how?

 

By rewriting the history that's how.

[Aithrobates]

For sure the fact the long range commercial exchange existed since millemniums can be used to justify the current state of capitalism, that many people like to define as "globalized". History as justification is a classic element of politician rhetotic.

 

But from there to imagine that the whole thing has ben invented to manipulate the masses... you're going too far.

 

I'm not sure we can really discuss if, instead of showing me historical illustrations of your view, you just say that all of mine come out of some complot to rewrite history.

 

Last time I've seen capitalists trying to prove they were right they were using police or army againts the people, or firing unionists. Not saying "But... the Tokharians lived in Inner Asia and they had an european material culture, so Eurasia allways was a big whole. We're working for global economy... What we're doing is natural."

[gatito]

He's one of my favourite, for sure. Needless to say that I found the idea for my nick and avatar in one of his books.

 

 

Indeed.

 

I see plenty of other flaws in this work. I think the general idea is good, but many things bother me here and there.

 

Like you said he does not take the similarities with greeks philosophers  into account.

The basis of his work is that Central Asia was very influencial (I agree with that) - and that Buddhism came to India from C.A. scythian traditions. Why not working with the idea that other people in greece were influenced by Scythians, a statement that has been made many times. So there is no contradiction in saying the Pyrrho is both related to other greeks, and to scythian derived indian proto-Buddhists, if they are all depend on a common source, that is iranian influence.

 

The problem is that he does not speak of iranian influenced philosophers after Anacharsis and before Pyrrho.

 

Some italian scholar (I forgot his name) described Pyrrho as some kind of Eleatic, and I can't help but seeing the compatibilty of Pyrrho with Parmenides and Gorgias. Heraclitus too is not far, according to Marcel Conche's work. And McEvilley wrote on the compatibility of Heraclitus and Buddhism.

 

Another problem is his references to Zoroastrism, which are at the minimum, while he argues that Buddhism was born as a reaction to the dominant Zoroastrism of the Achemenid empire. I expected more flesh here to support this strong hypothesis. Perhaps he does not elaborate here because he thinks the reader will refer to "Empires of the Silk Road" where he exposes more fully his views on iranian religions ?

 

And there is that Daosim thing that was the reason of this topic. What to think of this linguistic theory about Dao = Dharma and Lao Tan = Gautama ?

 

The author has a good philosophical intuition, but he wrote an history book. Nonetheless it is a very stimulating read and if I find it problematic, it is in a good way, because I made me aksing a lot of interesting questions.

 

Interestingly, Parmenides demolished "Buddhism".

 

Regarding linguistics; you may find this useful: -

 

www.sanskrit-sanscrito.com.ar/en/linguistics-origin-origin-of-the-indo-european-languages-part-i-1/485

[Taoist Texts]

 

 

I'm not sure we can really discuss if, instead of showing me historical illustrations of your view, you just say that all of mine come out of some complot to rewrite history.

 

Oh, I was not intending to take the conversation into post-modern academia politics, multi-culti and globalist propaganda. The above were just remarks on the cuffs for my own gratification but fully on topic i shall say. Whoever is interested can just follow the money: government or corporate sponsorship ---> universities and foundations ---> grants and tenures --> the product ordered by the sponsors. And whoever believes that there is a pure science unaffected by the money. ...Well....ignorance is bliss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkRIbUT6u7Q

[Taoist Texts]

Now, pyrrhism and buddhim, or whole greek tradition versus whole indian one. What is the one single biggest difference? Yoga. Greeks never developed anything like it. I wonder why.

[Aithrobates]

Yoga. Greeks never developed anything like it. I wonder why.

 

 

I've seen argument here and there discussing the possibility of an equivalent to yoga in ancient greece. I don't have the references in mind right now. But as far as I remember none of them were very deep.

 

The problem is that - according to some shcolars - the oldest forms of yoga were based on stillness, so if you look for some descriptions of various movements and postures in antiquity you wont find them neither in greece or india.

 

Here's a work about early yoga involving stillness : http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/The%20Two%20Traditions%20of%20Meditation%20in%20Ancient%20India_Bronkhorst.pdf

 

 

Interestingly, Parmenides demolished "Buddhism".

 

Depending on how one interprets Parmenides it is very likely that he can be seen as very incomptible with Buddism. People have been making Olp P to say all kind of things.

 

Have you got a link or another reference on that interpretation ? You catched my curiosity ^^

 

My personal standpoint is that studying the text in the greek puts you mind upside down so much that compared to that drinking a whole bottle of vodka while on amanitas seems a smooth ride. But sadly academia has no room for such heroic a statement...

Edited July 16, 2015 by Aithrobates

[gatito]

I've seen argument here and there discussing the possibility of an equivalent to yoga in ancient greece. I don't have the references in mind right now. But as far as I remember none of them were very deep.

 

The problem is that - according to some shcolars - the oldest forms of yoga were based on stillness, so if you look for some descriptions of various movements and postures in antiquity you wont find them neither in greece or india.

 

Here's a work about early yoga involving stillness : http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/The%20Two%20Traditions%20of%20Meditation%20in%20Ancient%20India_Bronkhorst.pdf

 

 

 

Depending on how one interprets Parmenides it is very likely that it can be seen as very incomptible with Buddism. Have you got a link or another reference on that interpretation ? You catched my curiosity ^^

 

I've also come across references to Greek "yoga" (and yoga involves both stillness and movement).

 

BTW I said "Buddhism" not Buddhism but here's one translation of Parmenides: -

 

 

Born around 515 BC., Parmenides, was a citizen of Elea, a small town in the south of Italy.  His poem "On Reality" was probably comprised of three parts of which we have only the first two largely intact.

 

The first part takes the form of an allegorical poem in which we see the poet, impelled by a strong desire, travel toward the domain of the Goddess, in a chariot pulled by powerful runners.  After unveiling their faces for him, the Maidens of light guide him to the "threshold where the roads of Night and of Day converge", and he is allowed to cross it as a result of their intercession.  He is then welcomed with benevolence by the Goddess who takes his right hand in hers and commences her teaching.

 

The second part, translated here, is the metaphysical section and contains the teaching of the truth.

 

The third, which is fragmentary, is the physical part. It represents ignorant public opinion according to which reality is the physical universe which came into existence in the past, exists today, and is destined to disappear one day.

 

***

 

Now then, I will instruct you; hear what I say:

Two paths are open to investigation.

The first says: being is and non-being is not.

It is the path of certainty, because it follows the truth.

The other says: being is not, therefore non-being is.

This misdirected path, I tell you, cannot lead to a sound conviction

For, if this statement were true, it would not be possible for you to conceive of non-being, nor to name it.

 

Speaking and thinking necessarily arise from being, because being is.

And non-being is not. I invite you to reflect deeply on this point,

And to move away, in your search, from that other path

As from the one traveled by those ignorant mortals

Who are the men of two minds: the uncertainty which resides in their hearts

Misleads their wavering reason. They are swept along,

Deaf and blind, benighted, the masses without discernment

Who pretend that being and non-being are simultaneously identical

And different, they for whom, for any statement, the opposite is equally true.

 

No power will ever bring non-being into existence.

So direct your thinking away from this path of exploration.

May habit, so often resumed, not force you to return to it,

With eyes blinded, ears filled with noise

And mouth with words, and may your intelligence alone resolve  this contentious issue.

 

Only one path remains for us to pursue:

Being is. And countless signs prove

That being is free from birth and death

Because it is complete, immutable and eternal.

It never was, it never will be, because it is completely whole in the now,

One, endless.  What beginning, indeed, should we attribute to it?

Whence would it evolve? Whither?

I will not allow you to say or to think that it comes from nothingness,

Nor that being is not.  What exigency would have brought it forth

Later or earlier, from non-being?

Thus, it can only be, absolutely, or not at all.

Our firm innermost conviction will never admit

That something can spring forth from nothingness.

In this way the goddess of Justice, forbidding birth and death,

Preserves without respite the existence of being. Whereas the question was to resolve

Whether being is or is not. We must therefore decide to abandon as false

The second hypothesis, the path which can neither be thought nor formulated,

And to hold to the first, which is the path of the truth.

How could what is, one day cease to be? How could it have, one day, come to be?

What is born, is not, neither what is to be born.

Thus dies birth and thus dies death.

Within being there remain no differences because it is completely identical to itself.

There is not, here, something more that comes to break continuity

Neither, there, something less: but everything is filled with being.

Thus it is all continuous:  being adjoined to being.

On the other hand, maintained motionless by powerful links,

It is without beginning and without end, since birth and death

Have been rejected as contrary to our intuition of truth.

Remaining itself, existing within itself, supported by itself,

Thus, immutable, it remains in the same place because the powerful necessity,

Hemming it in from all sides, keeps it firmly unified.                                                                                           

That is why it is not permitted that being be unfinished,

Because there is nothing missing in it; unfinished, it would be missing  everything!

Thought is identical to being, and so it is for the object to which thought refers;

Thus there is nothing, and there will never be anything, outside of being

Which Destiny compels to an eternal bliss. Thus,

To be born and to die, to be or not to be,

To change place or appearance,

All of these events are but names superimposed by man's ignorance.

Being the ultimate, it is everywhere complete.

Just as an harmoniously round sphere

Departs equally at all points from its center.

Nothing can be added to it here nor taken away from it there.   

What is not cannot interrupt its homogeneous existence.

What is cannot possess it more or less. Out of all reach,

Everywhere identical to itself, beyond all limits, it is.

 

stillnessspeaks.com/images/uploaded/file/parmenides.rtf (edited slightly by gatito)

[Aithrobates]

and yoga involves both stillness and movement

 

Yeah but according to the book I posted the earliest form were mostly or only stillness. If it is true we should look for that form in Greece, as looking for medieval forms more oriented towards movements would be anachronic. But that's only if it is true...

[gatito]

<snip>

 

But that's only if it is true...

 

I'm not really bothered either way..

 

And I think it's now time for me to leave this thread.

 

Sorry if I've dragged it off-topic..

 

_/\_

[Zhongyongdaoist]

 

Now, pyrrhism and buddhim, or whole greek tradition versus whole indian one. What is the one single biggest difference? Yoga. Greeks never developed anything like it. I wonder why. (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

If one actually reads Plato's dialogs with a knowledge of esoteric or spiritual practice, it is amazing what one can find:

 

 

. . . when the soul [79d] inquires alone by itself, it departs into the realm of the pure, the everlasting, the immortal and the changeless, and being akin to these it dwells always with them whenever it is by itself and is not hindered, and it has rest from its wanderings and remains always the same and unchanging with the changeless, since it is in communion therewith. And this state of the soul is called wisdom. Is it not so?”  (Perseus Digital Library, Plato Phaedo, 79c-d)

 

During his lifetime and for over 2,000 years thereafter, Plato was never read or understood the way he has been read and understood beginning circa 1800 to the present.  I don't have time right now to go into all that one can find in the dialogs, but I was continually amazed at how relevant portions of them are to spiritual practice.  I will try to expand on this if I have time.

[voidisyinyang]

If one actually reads Plato's dialogs with a knowledge of esoteric or spiritual practice, it is amazing what one can find:

 

 

During his lifetime and for over 2,000 years thereafter, Plato was never read or understood the way he has been read and understood beginning circa 1800 to the present.  I don't have time right now to go into all that one can find in the dialogs, but I was continually amazed at how relevant portions of them are to spiritual practice.  I will try to expand on this if I have time.

 

Actually................

 

 

 

This is the typical deification of Plato - a total twisting of his views.

 

Plato was against yoga and for a left-brain technocracy agenda based on Archytas twisting Pythagorean philosophy.

 

I have written on this in great detail.

 

Francesco Pelosi, Plato on Music, Soul and Body (Cambridge University Press, 2010), p. 118

 

 

Having discarded music and gymnastics, Socrates proposes considering the

science of “number and calculation” (522C6-7)…. The link between the correct

use of mathematics and the capacity of this discipline to lead to an extrasensible

dimension recalls the link between the correct use of the science of harmony (of

music in general) and the potential of this art to establish a contact with the soul

and supersensible harmony.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[Taoist Texts]

The problem is that - according to some shcolars - the oldest forms of yoga were based on stillness, so if you look for some descriptions of various movements and postures in antiquity you wont find them neither in greece or india.

 

To my mind yoga is not about the body or its postures or movements. Yoga is what you do with your mind. A formal exercise. Indians have it. Greeks dont. Instead of a formal exercise regimen the Greeks offer righteous conduct, some asceticism, some meditations (as in thinking things over). No exercise.

[Taoist Texts]

And this state of the soul is called wisdom. Is it not so?”  (Perseus Digital Library, Plato Phaedo, 79c-d)

It could be so;) but it is the destination. What is the road leading there?

[voidisyinyang]

To my mind yoga is not about the body or its postures or movements. Yoga is what you do with your mind. A formal exercise. Indians have it. Greeks dont. Instead of a formal exercise regimen the Greeks offer righteous conduct, some asceticism, some meditations (as in thinking things over). No exercise.

 

We already had this discussion - I exposed the details on Plato and Apeiron - he lied about real meditation as Emptiness.

 

http://innersoundqigong.blogspot.com/2015/05/updating-devils-interval-and-deep.html

 

 

"Magnitudes have all the characteristics Plato attributes to Apeiron."

 

p. 394

 

Socratic, Platonic and Aristotelian Studies: Essays in Honor of Gerasimos Santas 2011 And so then you have Proclus directly stating if there were no Apeiron there would be no irrational magnitudes.  From this googlebook review link

 

citing Vassliis Karasmanis, "Continunity and Irrationality in Ancient Greek Philosophy and Mathematics."

 

Someone on thetaobums asked the seemingly innocent question about the connection between Taoism and NeoPlatonism

[shanlung]

Taoism was already very old even before lust enter the heart of Laotze father and the gleam started in the eyes of Laotze mother.  Taoism is as likely  the offshoot of Buddhism as I am likely to be borned before my great great great great great grandfather was delivered from the womb of his mother.

 

 

 

 

  That only recently this contacts where made possible because Europeans were the first to have the travelling means and the liguistic skills to conduct such expeditions. That before it was impossible to travel that far, and unlikely that people would learn new languages. 

 

Exercising my guru emeritus of CtrlC-V , from

 

http://www.silk-road.com/artl/ibn_battuta.shtml

 

 

 

Introduction

Abu Abdullah Muhammad Ibn Battuta, also known as Shams ad - Din, was born at Tangier, Morocco, on the 24th February 1304 C.E. (703 Hijra). He left Tangier on Thursday, 14th June, 1325 C.E. (2nd Rajab 725 A.H.), when he was twenty one years of age. His travels lasted for about thirty years, after which he returned to Fez, Morocco at the court of Sultan Abu 'Inan and dictated accounts of his journeys to Ibn Juzay. These are known as the famous Travels (Rihala) of Ibn Battuta. He died at Fez in 1369 C.E.

Ibn Battuta was the only medieval traveller who is known to have visited the lands of every Muslim ruler of his time. He also travelled in Ceylon (present Sri Lanka), China and Byzantium and South Russia. The mere extent of his travels is estimated at no less than 75,000 miles, a figure which is not likely to have been surpassed before the age of steam.

 

 

Travels

In the course of his first journey, Ibn Battuta travelled through Algiers, Tunis, Egypt, Palestine and Syria to Makkah. After visiting Iraq, Shiraz and Mesopotamia he once more returned to perform the Hajj at Makkah and remained there for three years. Then travelling to Jeddah he went to Yemen by sea, visited Aden andset sail for Mombasa, East Africa. After going up to Kulwa he came back to Oman and repeated pilgrimage to Makkah in 1332 C.E. via Hormuz, Siraf, Bahrain and Yamama. Subsequently he set out with the purpose of going to India, but on reaching Jeddah, he appears to have changed his mind (due perhaps to the unavailability of a ship bound for India), and revisited Cairo, Palestine and Syria, thereafter arriving at Aleya (Asia Minor) by sea and travelled across Anatolia and Sinope. He then crossed the Black Sea and after long wanderings he reached Constantinople through Southern Ukraine.

On his return, he visited Khurasan through Khawarism (Khiva) and having visited all the important cities such as Bukhara, Balkh, Herat, Tus, Mashhad and Nishapur, he crossed the Hindukush mountains via the 13,000 ft Khawak Pass into Afghanistan and passing through Ghani and Kabul entered India. After visiting Lahri (near modern Karachi), Sukkur, Multan, Sirsa and Hansi, he reached Delhi. For several years Ibn Battuta enjoyed the patronage of Sultan Mohammad Tughlaq, and was later sent as Sultan's envoy to China. Passing through Cental India and Malwa he took ship from Kambay for Goa, and after visiting many thriving ports along the Malabar coast he reached the Maldive Islands, from which he crossed to Ceylon. Continuing his journey, he landed on the Ma'bar (Coromandal) coast and once more returning to the Maldives he finally set sail for Bengal and visited Kamrup, Sylhet and Sonargaon (near Dhaka). Sailing along the Arakan coast he came to Sumatra and later landed at Canton via Malaya and Cambodia. In China he travelled northward to Peking through Hangchow. Retracing his steps he returned to Calicut and taking ship came to Dhafari and Muscat, and passing through Paris (Iran), Iraq, Syria, Palestine and Egypt made his seventh and last pilgrimage to Makkah in November 1348 C.E. and then returned to his home town of Fez. His travels did not end here - he later visited Muslim Spain and the lands of the Niger across the Sahara.

On his return to Fez, Ibn Battuta dictated the accounts ofhis travels to Ibn Juzay al-Kalbi (1321-1356 C.E.) at the court of Sultan Abu Inan (1348-1358 C.E). Ibn Juzay took three months to accomplish this work ,which he finished on 9th December 1355 C.E.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Battuta

 

 

Ibn Baṭūṭah (/ˌɪbənbætˈtuːtɑː/ Arabic: أبو عبد الله محمد بن عبد الله اللواتي الطنجي بن بطوطة‎, ʾAbū ʿAbd al-Lāh Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd al-Lāh l-Lawātī ṭ-Ṭanǧī ibn Baṭūṭah), or simply Ibn Battuta (ابن بطوطة) (February 25, 1304 – 1368 or 1369), was a Moroccan explorer of Berber descent.^[1] He is known for his extensive travels, accounts of which were published in the Rihla (lit. "Journey"). Over a period of thirty years, Ibn Battuta visited most of the knownIslamic world as well as many non-Muslim lands. His journeys included trips to North Africa, the Horn of Africa, West Africa and Eastern Europe, and to the Middle East, South Asia, Central Asia, Southeast Asia and China. Ibn Battuta is generally considered one of the greatest travellers of all time.^[2]

 

 

^{Taoistic Idiot on travelling about within and without the Path}

[Kongming]

To my mind yoga is not about the body or its postures or movements. Yoga is what you do with your mind. A formal exercise. Indians have it. Greeks dont. Instead of a formal exercise regimen the Greeks offer righteous conduct, some asceticism, some meditations (as in thinking things over). No exercise.

 

I wouldn't say this is necessarily the case. The Neoplatonists had exercises, primarily of an apophatic or emptying nature, and later Neoplatonic theurgy and ancient Greek alchemists had exercises of one might call a 'yogic' type, or at least esoteric/occult. The ancient Greeks also had various 'direct introduction' initiations within the various mystery traditions, such as the Eleusinian mysteries. Later the Greeks, after converting to Christianity, had a variety of exercises that one can read about in the Philokalia and other texts (some of which likely had antecedents in ancient Platonic exercises), with the primary focus being on hesychasm, a repetitive prayer akin to Sufi dhikr and Hindu/Buddhist mantras.

 

Take this example from Evagrius Ponticus speaking on prayer:

 

 

The way of prayer is twofold; it comprises the practice of the virtues and contemplation.

 

When the soul has been purified through the keeping of all the commandments, it makes the intellect (nous) able to receive the state needed for prayer.

 

Prayer is the communion of the intellect with God. If you wish to behold and commune with Him who is beyond sense-perception and beyond concepts, you must free yourself from every impassioned thought.

 

Prayer is the flower of gentleness and of freedom from anger.

 

Prayer is the ascent of the intellect to God. If you long for prayer, renounce all to gain all.

 

The state of prayer is one of dispassion, which by virtue of the most intense love transports to the noetic realm the intellect that longs for wisdom.

 

If the intellect has not risen above the contemplation of the created world, it has not yet beheld the realm of God perfectly. For it may be occupied with the knowledge of intelligible things, and so involved in their multiplicity.

 

When you are praying, do not shape within yourself any image of the Deity, and do not let your intellect be stamped with the impress of any form; but approach the Immaterial in an immaterial manner, and then you will understand.

 

You cannot attain pure prayer while entangled in material things and agitated by constant cares. For prayer means the shedding of thoughts.

 

Psalmody calms the passions and curbs the uncontrolled impulses in the body; and prayer enables the intellect to activate its own energy.

 

Prayer is the energy which accords with the dignity of the intellect; it is intellect's true and highest activity.

 

Psalmody appertains to the wisdom of the world of multiplicity; prayer is the prelude to the immaterial knowledge of the One.

 

Spiritual knowledge has great beauty; it is the helpmate of prayer, awakening the noetic power of the intellect to contemplation of divine knowledge.

 

Blessed is the intellect that, undistracted in its prayer, acquires an ever greater longing for God.

 

Blessed is the intellect that during prayer is free from materiality and stripped of all possessions.

 

Blessed is the intellect that has acquired complete freedom from sensations during prayer.

 

Edit: The works of Algis Uzdavinys are worth investigating for those interested in these matters.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Kongming