Fun

[Cameron]

Seems to be a primary aspect of human existence is to have as much fun as you can.

 

But it's like..you want toh ave fun without hurting other people too much(or doing damage control..minimizing hurting others)

 

Some people like my Tao brother Smile take this to an extreme by saying you shouldn't eat steaks(which are delicious) but if steaks bring me enjoyments and fun should I really stop eating them?

 

By the same token..beating some innocent guy on the street up and taking his money might be fun to someone but not a particularly nice thing to do.

 

So where do you all feel the fun vibe fits into Taoist practice..is there abalance to it all..or is that mostly just society's conditioning because maybe they are too caught in there judgments/mind etc?

[林愛偉]

Seems to be a primary aspect of human existence is to have as much fun as you can.

 

But it's like..you want toh ave fun without hurting other people too much(or doing damage control..minimizing hurting others)

 

Some people like my Tao brother Smile take this to an extreme by saying you shouldn't eat steaks(which are delicious) but if steaks bring me enjoyments and fun should I really stop eating them?

 

By the same token..beating some innocent guy on the street up and taking his money might be fun to someone but not a particularly nice thing to do.

 

So where do you all feel the fun vibe fits into Taoist practice..is there abalance to it all..or is that mostly just society's conditioning because maybe they are too caught in there judgments/mind etc?

 

 

Actually, Daoist monks look at lay people as a bit lower in existence because they indulge in their desires indiscriminately. Some monks actually try to talk the person out of practicing Daoism for fear that the person would practice wrong and lead other people to do the same thing. lol

When I say monks, I mean left home person, either in a temple or mountain cave.

 

People seem to think that curbing one's desires is separating themselves from life. When actually indulging in them does just that. Keeps one caught in the state of enjoyment, and does nothing to end the wanting to be fulfilled.

Desires can never be fulfilled. If they could, they wouldn't come back again and again just to get a few minutes or days of satisfaction. They are empty, and can never be fulfilled. This is why Daoists and Buddhists alike curb their desires to a great degree because it is a big waste of energy. Likes and dislikes are mental states, and take one's energy.

 

It is good cultivation to work on doing something that feels really hard to do. That doesn't mean hurting others. If it hurts no one, it is good...that means it must not hurt yourself either.

 

Peace and Blessings

 

Lin

 

P.S.- Cameron, We're all cultivation brothers here. I am by no means pointing a finger at you in this post. Just giving you a heads up on some outlooks of people on the inside. I seen them shut out others because of habits, and desires. This conduct of putting one's attention in other places other than desires is very much forgotten in today's Lay Daoist Cultivator. Peace and Blessings.

Edited October 22, 2007 by 林愛偉

[arnquist]

Wow, well said Lin. I think the Taoist "vibe" when it comes to having fun is to enjoy the little things in life, live in the moment, cultivate a healthy curiosity, a healthy imagination, a desire to learn, stuff like that. Monks try to get rid of desire, but Taoists can just desire to be in tune with the Tao, which leads them to a fuller appreciation and understanding of reality. And also, an ability to see through the illusions, misunderstandings and oversimplifications that often lead to violence and suffering.

[joeblast]

Lin, I always enjoy your posts!

[doc benway]

The two primary human motivations seem to be fear and desire. Both are deeply integrated in our psyche due to a combination of biology and sociology. As Lin said, desire can never be satisfied nor can fear be eliminated by the mind. There is nothing wrong with seeking what makes one happy and letting go what makes one suffer. Recognizing the fundamental "oneness" of humanity leads to compassion. Compassion helps you balance what makes "you" feel good at the expense of making "them" feel bad. The way to liberation, however, is by achieving a state that transcends fear and desire and even transcends compassion, as ironic as that may sound - I think this is what cultivation strives for, whether Daoist, Buddhist, Hindu,... - going beyond the mind. At that point, it is irrelevant to discuss "good" and "bad" desires anymore. Fear and desire are left behind with the mind/person.

[林愛偉]

The two primary human motivations seem to be fear and desire. Both are deeply integrated in our psyche due to a combination of biology and sociology. As Lin said, desire can never be satisfied nor can fear be eliminated by the mind. There is nothing wrong with seeking what makes one happy and letting go what makes one suffer. Recognizing the fundamental "oneness" of humanity leads to compassion. Compassion helps you balance what makes "you" feel good at the expense of making "them" feel bad. The way to liberation, however, is by achieving a state that transcends fear and desire and even transcends compassion, as ironic as that may sound - I think this is what cultivation strives for, whether Daoist, Buddhist, Hindu,... - going beyond the mind. At that point, it is irrelevant to discuss "good" and "bad" desires anymore. Fear and desire are left behind with the mind/person.

 

 

Good post.

 

arnquist; ...I think the Taoist "vibe" when it comes to having fun is to enjoy the little things in life, live in the moment, cultivate a healthy curiosity, a healthy imagination, a desire to learn, stuff like that. Monks try to get rid of desire, but Taoists can just desire to be in tune with the Tao, which leads them to a fuller appreciation and understanding of reality. And also, an ability to see through the illusions, misunderstandings and oversimplifications that often lead to violence and suffering.

 

 

Yes actuallythe idea with desire in cultivation is to actually use that as a fuel so to say in one's cultivation. Move them further. You see, desire, when put towards the path of enlightenment, is a desire that still can be clung to, but you are constantly reminded not to through your vows, and or the basic fundamental of your cultivation. So at some point it becomes apparent that you have to simply put even that desire down. BUT not until you reached a level where you wouldn't fall back into previous habits.

That means cultivate till even the dust that sits at the bottom there transforms...hahaha if the water stirs, there is nothing being moved.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[Yoda]

I just saw the Dalai Lama. That guy knows how to have a good time!!

[Cameron]

I am a fan!

[Flynn]

Fun seems to work more like an addiction: extreme highs followed by (comparatively) extreme lows. Quite often I find myself engaged in something that is loads of fun, but afterwards anything else I do seems relatively boring and not fulfilling. It seems like anything would be worthwhile to get to that state of enjoyment again, which I blame for many of the stupid things my peers do.

 

After meditation, however, or accomplishing something difficult like Lin said, I can maintain a feeling of fulfillment for much longer periods of time. I am only speaking from my limited experience, but I am sure that many of you experience something similar, though probably on a much higher level. Fun seems to be a kind of self-imposed filler that we created when we split with our spirituality as a culture.

 

For things like this (i.e. interpersonal relationships) I really like the "Celestine Prophecy" theory of energy transmission among people and nature. It would explain a lot....

 

At that point, it is irrelevant to discuss "good" and "bad" desires anymore. Fear and desire are left behind with the mind/person.

 

I really like that argument that "good" and "bad" are societally imposed ideas, I can't count how many times I've had that discussion. Even if they are of our own creation, though, isn't there a point at which they are necessary for our society to keep itself in check? I can't bring myself to kill anything, and I try my best not to make other people upset when I can help it, but I want to know if things like that are really justifiable or just my delusions about right and wrong.

Edited October 23, 2007 by Flynn

[mat black]

from my experience, fun is fun.

 

but there's also something that goes much deeper........if i had to use a word, i'd say peace.

 

it is found within.

 

may all beings know it always

Edited October 23, 2007 by mat black

[freeform]

Fun is for the head... because only the head can distinguish between fun and no fun (I say 'distinguish' but it's more of an artificial seperation)... Just like with good and bad - there is always an exactly equal balance of the two, but the mind is like a narrow beam of light, only able to concentrate on a tiny part of 'everything' at a time - so it concentrates on good and sees it as good, when in fact it's good and bad at the same time - the heart and belly know this...

 

There is nothing wrong with having ths very limited mind that can only shine it's light on a very miniscule part of 'everything' (7 (+ or - 2) bits of information is all it can manage) - I personally think that once you overcome the control of the mind - how it always tries to be in control and dictate what everything is, how this is good because of that and that is bad because of this (this is all a dramatic little imagination game) - and once you're able to establish a balanced connection between all three aspects of yourself (the belly - infinite, the mind - very finite and the heart which feels in between them now) - then you're ready to have fun with your mind - and at this point the idea of 'fun' might change... fun will be percieving all the crap that the mind gets up to (it's like a little spoilt kid looking for attention - and hey that was fun at some point in our lives, no?) - so now your mind starts getting worried about a job interview and you notice the fun in that and instead of that thought killing you a tiny little bit, it will, instead nourish you.

 

In terms of 'doing stuff' rather than 'thinking stuff', once there is balance between the three aspects of oneself, doing stuff will be in accordance of your true will - your actions are hooked up to the infinite, the finite and the bit in between that feels the now and i suspect all actions coming from that, flow in a kind of golden mean/fibbonacci spiral - in perfect accord to nature and everything...

 

but hey - I wrote all that for fun - and nothing more or less than that

[Cameron]

I would akin it more to something like a terrorist than spoiled kid

 

But hey...All that is /the Universe/Tao needed a worthy adversary, no?

 

That whole thing I wrote BTW is probably also coming from the mind