Suffering

[Karl]

Suffering is just conflict with reality. There is a clear distinction between pain and suffering. Take as an example, if a person dies who is close to us we may rationalise the death 'at least they are at peace' 'they had a good life' or whatever. This is avoiding the reality which is that we are sad about being left alone. There is no requirement to rationalise the reality of that emotional feeling of loss. We try and empathise with the deceased, but the reality is we cannot, all we are discovering is our own response to our loss.

 

Sometimes the suffering caused by self imposed conflict is minor, but it has a tendency to build layers one on top of the next. At some point the suffering can become unbearable-Illusory concept is heaped on illusory concept and we are lost and unable to cope with any form of reality. Reality like gravity it is always pulling us back and won't be ignored, the further we go from it, the greater suffering becomes.

[Bud Jetsun]

I am not looking for suffering, suffering finds me. Its kind of makes it hard to defeat.

 

 

Despite your illusions, it's still impossible to be anyone but yourself choosing to suffer.  

 

If you don't yet have this awareness, ask yourself who else is thinking your thoughts of perceiving this suffering?  

 

When trapped in the illusion the uncontrolled stream of thoughts of the 'little self' is all you have, and you're victim to the whim of this wild stream of thoughts that's out of your control, then you're unguided like a leaf floating in the ocean.  

 

If you accept realization that your mindfulness has always been your exclusive domain, you've just transcended the illusion that it's possible for anyone/anything else could possibly effect your state of being without your consent/choice. 

 

Mindfulness is the simple key to conclude suffering, and there was never an instant someone else was thinking your thoughts for you, it's always explicitly in your domain.  

 

Perhaps to aid in clearing the mind well enough to make the realization of inherent mindfulness, mediate on recognizing all things unforgiven are burdens that only hurt yourself pointlessly to carry.   Make peace with all previous events in your life, forgive all things you've been choosing to burden yourself with carrying.  

 

When you decide to choose to stop worrying about things that haven't yet come, and let anything from the past, no matter how cruel or unfair to mindfully leave your thoughts, you enjoy peace and liberation from suffering. 

 

Alternatively, if you choose to live in a delusion you're a helpless victim of whatever suffering thoughts you choose to have, then you suffer uncontrollably.  

 

Either way, man cannot suffer without consenting to accept the suffering experience.  The difference happens when you realize the choice to suffer or not suffer at any moment as ever in anyone elses hands but your own. 

 

Lay down your minds burdens by forgiving completely and indiscriminately. Recognize why yourself and all other beings are worthy of your love.  Gain awareness nobody else but you is there thinking your thoughts, and accept mindful domain of your being and choose to perceive unbreakable bliss if you find you tire of choosing to suffer.  

 

Awareness of mindfulness is perhaps the only tool needed for liberation of suffering.  It ends the delusion you ever could have been a victim of anything but your own minds choice to suffer. 

 

If I could find your minds peace for you, I would happily do it, but it is a thing only you can do for yourself. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[Jonesboy]

This is a little long but I have found this to be a powerful technique.

 

P.S. His website seems to be down at the moment or I would link to Michael Brown's The Presence Portal.

LANDING OUT OF THE MENTAL PLANE

The common denominator within any encounter of being upset is that we feel a level of discomfort. Instinctively, when confronted by an upset, we react through an expression of:


Emotional feelings.

By entertaining mental thoughts forms or stories.

Through outwardly projected physical behavior.

Whether we are aware of it or not, no matter what reactive approach we take when upset, by reacting to the upset we are attempting to sedate and control what we perceive is happening to us from our awareness. And, all sedation and control in the face of an upset is "the pushing of our shadow away from us", and consequently, a forced ascension of our awareness into the mental plane. The more we push away at the experience of "being upset", the more ungrounded we become.

When we consciously observe an upsetting experience we real eyes there are three distinct aspects to it; a physical, mental, and emotional:


The physical aspects are the circumstances or person/s that triggered the upset, and they are also the physical behaviors we are considering initiating as a consequence of whatever occurred.


The mental aspect is the story we are telling ourselves about what happened, who did what, why it happened, and whose fault it was.


The emotional aspect is how this upset is causing us to feel. The emotional aspect of any upset is accessible to us as both an uncomfortable feeling state, and emotion which we may call fear, anger, and/or grief, and as a corresponding physical sensation anchored within our body.

Here are a set of instructions inviting you to consciously enter the grounding experience we are discussing:


Remember the most recent occasion in which you felt upset. Notice how you use the mental plane as a corridor to recall the details of the incident; it obediently delivers your attention to the moment of the incident that initially triggered you. This is a useful application of the mental plane; using it as a means to fly your attention from one moment to another – whether this moment is currently unfolding or is already past. To enter a portal of upset you may also choose an upsetting experience from the past that has been festering within your thought forms right up to this present moment. You will find that your awareness of any past unintegrated event diminishes and seemingly completely disappears when you are busy and engaged within life’s demands, (which may be why you engage yourself so actively in so many "doings"). However, as you try to go to sleep at night, or as you awake in the morning, its resonance of disquiet dutifully returns. This type of upset is ripe for the picking. Whatever is upsetting you, whether something happening right now, or something from the past that is still nagging at you, is a way in.


As you recall the upset of your choosing, instead of engaging in the mental aspect of the experience, or upon the physical actions you may be considering, place your attention fully on "the feeling" accompanying it. Take note of where this uncomfortable feeling is located as a physical sensation in your body. It does not matter what you call this uncomfortable feeling, whether it is fear, anger, and/or grief. Your only task is to feel it, and while feeling it, to simultaneously take note of where it is within your physical body. Whatever the uncomfortable emotional state is that accompanies the upset, it is also reflected as a physical sensation within your body. Your task is to place your attention within this physical sensation and to "cradle it". How? Momentarily bring to mind the image of The Madonna & Child: She is gently cradling the child in her arms; there is no movement within her posture, and no attempt to change or understand anything. Her only intention is to embrace the innocence contained within her arms. As you place your attention upon the uncomfortable feeling of this upset, cradle it in this manner; there is no physical movement required from your body, nor any mental participation in this practice other than using the mental body as a means to place and hold your attention fully within your physical body upon the sensational location of your emotional discomfort.


As you cradle the uncomfortable feeling with your attention, keep your eyes open. Yes, open. As you place your attention upon the feeling within, do not close your eyes and escape from the outer physical reality of the moment you are currently engaging. The eyes you place upon this inner discomfort, the eyes that have the capacity to "feel", are the eyes of the heart. While the eyes of the heart attend to this inner feeling, allow the eyes of the physical body to rest in stillness, open, gently embracing the presence of the outer world. Notice how, as you place the eyes of the heart on the inner feeling, you instinctively want to close your eyes and disappear. This is the old habit of "mentally running away" which has often been disguised as "a spiritual practice". Do not leave, do not fly off, stay here.


Now, if you choose to, place this piece of writing down, and enter this practice for a few minutes. Pay attention to the inner and outer experience it initiates. Here are the instructions for brief review:


Remember the most recent occasion in which you felt upset.


As you recall the upset, instead of engaging your attention in the mental aspect of the experience, or in the physical actions you are considering taking, place your attention fully on the accompanying feeling. take note of where this feeling is located as a physical sensation in your body. Cradle this feeling in that location.


As you cradle the uncomfortable feeling with your attention, keep your eyes open. Simultaneously watch both the inner feeling and the outer world.

Do not be concerned if you struggle to keep your attention hooked onto the feeling aspect of the recalled upset. Remember that the eyes of the heart are weak because we live upon a planet that does not consciously develop them or appreciate what they are able to show us. The eyes of the heart develop organically through our consistent use of them.

When approaching an upset consciously in this manner, by placing our full attention on the felt-aspect of the experience, instead of escaping into mental activity or any physical behavior the mental plane encourages, we notice almost immediate occurrences:


We begin feeling more grounded into our life experience. This is because these uncomfortable feelings lead us directly into an awareness of the shadow we run away from, and by consciously drawing the shadow towards us, we approach the runway of reality. Approaching the experience of "being grounded" may be so unfamiliar to us, that as we consciously engage our landing gear, we experience a sense of anxiety. It is a bit like the moment just before a plane’s wheels impact the runway; there is a sense of "holding on" or "holding back". However, the moment we allow ourselves to relax into the uncomfortable felt-resonance within the upset we are recalling, we gradually come down to earth and appreciate the groundedness initiated by the experience. This grounding causes a sense of relief, just like the moment after touching down on the runway and knowing we are once again safely upon the earth.


Once we are grounded into the physical location of the feeling within our body, we notice that an energetic movement begins within this sensation. The actual sensation through which the uncomfortable emotional state is anchored into our physical body, which has been stuck or blocked, starts transforming. It transforms because our awareness is our tool of transformation. Often this inner movement is experienced as an upward rise of energy through our chest area and up into our head which may culminate in tearing up. Yes, as we sink down into it, it rises up! Who would have thought?


outwardly, we also notice that the more grounded into the inner feeling we become, the more alive, vital, and animated the world around us becomes. Our experience of being here upon earth ceases to appear as a flat inanimate encounter, but instead takes on a textured hue, an energetic aura. This is because we, through consciously grounding ourselves, arrive more fully into the present moment of our current experience. Only when we allow ourselves to engage fully with the moment we are in now do we real eyes how heavenly this earthly experience is.


GARDENING OUR HEART


It is up to us to give ourselves the experience of the consequences of consciously gardening our heart. If we require "understanding" before we are willing to take on this responsibility, it is only because we are trying to comprehend what is being offered here from our seat within the maze of the mental plane.


The heart cannot be understood; it can only be engaged. Only when we engage our heart do we enter a marriage made in heaven.


The following simple practice, when engaged consistently, shows us, through personal experience, that it is the garden of the heart from which all the fruits of a joyful, healthy, and abundant life experience are seeded, cultivated, and harvested. It is also from within the garden of the heart that we consciously awaken to the experience of the conscious death that fruits eternal rebirth. By tending to the garden of the heart consistently each day, we experience the miraculous. It reveals to us what it really means to "love and take care of ourselves"; to stand by ourselves no matter what. To initiate this encounter with the heart it is recommended we tend to our garden for a few minutes at the beginning and the end of each day, and also in the midst of any unexpected upset. This is how simple it is:


We sit comfortably in a quiet place where we will not be interrupted. (If we truly seek to be authentic when entering this practice, we switch our cell phone to "off". Otherwise, we are just doing this because nothing else is currently stealing our attention.)


We recall an upset, whether it is something that happened recently, or something currently festering within our physical, mental, and emotional experience.


We drop the story and the details of the physical events surrounding it, and instead place our attention fully on "how we feel about it".


Where seek out where we feel this discomfort within our body? We place our attention within this location and "cradle it".


While keeping the eyes of our heart upon the uncomfortable feeling within our body, we simultaneously keep our physical eyes open, and in a relaxed manner, we observe the world before us.


We observe how the inner feeling moves, and how, as it does, the outer world simultaneously increases in presence.


When we stray off into the mental again, we gently bring our attention back into the inner feeling within our body and simultaneously upon the presence of the outer world.


We cradle this experience for as long as we feel necessary.


NOTE: If we do not have an upset to consciously work with, we enter the practice by consciously placing our attention within the center of our chest and hold it there, following the above instructions, until we feel complete. The practice of consistently placing of our attention within the center of our chest is equally powerful in initiating "the death experience" that invites the blessing of rebirth within all unintegrated aspects of our life experience.



Eventually, through this practice, we discover that the feelings of discomfort underlying our unintegrated upsets are gradually integrated and replaced by stillness, silence, and a sense of balance and peace within our heart. Over time these feelings of balance and peace organically radiate into our thoughts and are reflected back through our outer physical circumstances.

As a consequence of daily and consistently facing our shadow and grounding ourselves through it, we begin also decreasing our addiction to escaping into the mental plane as a means to initiate a change in the quality of our life experience. We discover, when consistently attending to the garden of the heart in this way, by watering, weeding, and fertilizing it with our cradled attention, that it gradually lifts unnoticed veils and reveals the depth of the immensity of the life experience available to us all in each moment. By attending to the heart in this manner, the teachings we receive internally through revelation free us of "following others", of wandering through endless conceptual spiritual mazes, and of "the seekers seemingly unscratchable itch". This practice gradually frees us of "spiritual delusion", or "the spiritual disease", as Adyashanti aptly calls it.

As we become familiar with "the death experience", and surrender to the companionship of its divine presence within the ever-changing currents of our life, we are reborn, again, and again, and again. This rebirthing nourishes a deepening awareness of what it means "to live fully within the radiance of the present moment".


Entering life more fully, by consciously and consistently entering the heart, really is this simple. However, to fully receive the revelation of the simple teaching shared here, requires experientially entering "the heart of the matter" as a way of being in this world and not as "something we need to do, and get over with, so that we can get on with something else". This teaching and the consequences it initiates is the Dharma of The Sacred Heart.

"It’s not about feeling better – it’s about getting better at feeling."

[Bud Jetsun]

That's a clever path to arrive at the same realization through a gentle roundabout process.  Thank you for sharing it. Infinite paths to the same realization, I'm no poet like that fellow. 

[Karl]

Like Bud I think that's excellent method and well described. It's pretty much what I have being doing for several years. It can be brutal to accept 'I feel this' 'this is a real thought' directly, so your route is far more gentle than my hatchet job.

[Bindi]

I agree with this method as well, except to add that the feeling isn't necessarily stored in the heart, some feelings are stored in the gut, and the eyes of the gut are also pretty smart. 

[rex]

Good advice already given.

 

Since this is the Buddhist forum these specific perspectives may be worth considering:

 

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/dodrupchen-III/transforming-suffering-and-happiness

 

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Three_types_of_suffering

Edited July 22, 2015 by rex

[Karl]

I agree with this method as well, except to add that the feeling isn't necessarily stored in the heart, some feelings are stored in the gut, and the eyes of the gut are also pretty smart. 

 

The gut has its own autonomous nervous system if I remember correctly. It's an ancient piece of tech now integrated into the whole. I don't think it's particularly smart though. I wouldn't trust it to drive my car for instance. Pretty good at determining when to eat.

[Bindi]

I wouldn't trust  my gut or my heart to drive my car either. 

 

But I would trust my gut instincts and gut feelings in emotional situations.

[Jonesboy]

Bindi,

 

All thoughts start from the heart. Ramana agrees with me on this one.

 

Emotions start as a physical sensation in the heart. It is that sensation that our mind uses to create mind stories.

 

This technique teaches one how to dismiss the mind stories and integrate the emotional charge, the obstruction.

 

Learning to work with the emotional upset in the way has been very powerful in not only working with emotions but also working with energy as well.

 

There is a lot to residing in energy like that.

[allinone]

Thanks guys.

 

I needed that signal or feeling where i am being taught. Its really hard to accept a teaching from another person. Perhaps its a feeling of humiliation i needed.

 

Thanks all of you! Your efforts haven't been in vain.

[dawei]

Suffering is a rather universal topic which folks from Buddha to Schopenhauer have commented on.  I tend to not really like the word as it seems it can be a stumbling block on some level and not get to the source issue;  To me, suffering as a word is an external expression for what is an internal struggle/lost/mis-perception.

 

So to me, I view it two ways, which are really saying the same thing depending on which side of the coin one is coming from:

 

1. Clinging/attaching/desiring/distinctions of things leads to suffering.  There is a localized moment (we could call it now) where we interpret within eternalness something which becomes more important than eternalness.   Despite calls to remain focused on now, now seems to be part of the issue on a certain level because it has been made distinct from eternalness.

2. Boundaries exist/created which cause a feeling of separation/lost.  We have bound ourselves to one thing but in doing so we lost being unbound like eternalness (which one could think of as being paradoxically bound to a boundless eternalness).

 

What is interesting is that attaching to that one thing (nowness) is really a glimpse of attaching to the ONE THING (eternalness).   And yet, in my theory, the former causes the suffering and the latter is a more free state. 

 

So the conventional wisdom (and I've said it enough myself) is to get rid of the former, expunge it for the latter to work its way into your psyche...   Start with sensing no boundaries, permitting anything, accepting all things, acknowledging everything instead of trying to work towards it.

 

And yet, there is another realization regarding how our hold on the one thing is just not yet Expanded to a hold of the unbound ONE THING.  In that way, one should try and see that we're just holding to a small part of eternalness at that moment.  If one doesn't like the idea to just eradicate what their holding to, then work on letting the understanding of the current boundary [holding] Expand towards a hold on the unbound eternal. 

 

What one feels now is separation/lost/need for something and holding anything makes the reality of suffering more real to a degree... but expand the idea to a sense of holding the unbound in that moment... like one was given the chance to glimpse the eternal, now... nothing is lost in eternalness. 

[Bindi]

Bindi,

 

All thoughts start from the heart. Ramana agrees with me on this one.

 

Emotions start as a physical sensation in the heart. It is that sensation that our mind uses to create mind stories.

 

This technique teaches one how to dismiss the mind stories and integrate the emotional charge, the obstruction.

 

Learning to work with the emotional upset in the way has been very powerful in not only working with emotions but also working with energy as well.

 

There is a lot to residing in energy like that.

 

How the gut feeling shapes fear

 

The Journal of Neuroscience, 21 May 2014.

 

Gut feeling: the gut influences brain processes involved in emotions like fear.

 

We are all familiar with that uncomfortable feeling in our stomach when faced with a threatening situation. By studying rats, researchers at ETH Zurich have been able to prove for the first time that our 'gut instinct' has a significant impact on how we react to fear.

 

An unlit, deserted car park at night, footsteps in the gloom. The heart beats faster and the stomach ties itself in knots. We often feel threatening situations in our stomachs. While the brain has long been viewed as the centre of all emotions, researchers are increasingly trying to get to the bottom of this proverbial gut instinct.

 

It is not only the brain that controls processes in our abdominal cavity; our stomach also sends signals back to the brain. At the heart of this dialogue between the brain and abdomen is the vagus nerve, which transmits signals in both directions – from the brain to our internal organs (via the so called efferent nerves) and from the stomach back to our brain (via the afferent nerves). By cutting the afferent nerve fibres in rats, a team of scientists led by Urs Meyer, a researcher in the Group of ETH Zurich professor Wolfgang Langhans, turned this two-way communication into a one-way street, enabling the researchers to get to the bottom of the role played by gut instinct. In the test animals, the brain was still able to control processes in the abdomen, but no longer received any signals from the other direction.

 

Less fear without gut instinct

 

In the behavioural studies, the researchers determined that the rats were less wary of open spaces and bright lights compared with controlled rats with an intact vagus nerve. "The innate response to fear appears to be influenced significantly by signals sent from the stomach to the brain," says Meyer.

 

Nevertheless, the loss of their gut instinct did not make the rats completely fearless: the situation for learned fear behaviour looked different. In a conditioning experiment, the rats learned to link a neutral acoustic stimulus – a sound – to an unpleasant experience. Here, the signal path between the stomach and brain appeared to play no role, with the test animals learning the association as well as the control animals. If, however, the researchers switched from a negative to a neutral stimulus, the rats without gut instinct required significantly longer to associate the sound with the new, neutral situation. This also fits with the results of a recently published study conducted by other researchers, which found that stimulation of the vagus nerve facilitates relearning, says Meyer.

 

These findings are also of interest to the field of psychiatry, as post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), for example, is linked to the association of neutral stimuli with fear triggered by extreme experiences. Stimulation of the vagus nerve could help people with PTSD to once more associate the triggering stimuli with neutral experiences. Vagus nerve stimulation is already used today to treat epilepsy and, in some cases, depression.

 

Stomach influences signalling in the brain

 

"A lower level of innate fear, but a longer retention of learned fear – this may sound contradictory," says Meyer. However, innate and conditioned fear are two different behavioural domains in which different signalling systems in the brain are involved. On closer investigation of the rats' brains, the researchers found that the loss of signals from the abdomen changes the production of certain signalling substances, so called neurotransmitters, in the brain.

 

"We were able to show for the first time that the selective interruption of the signal path from the stomach to the brain changed complex behavioural patterns. This has traditionally been attributed to the brain alone," says Meyer. The study shows clearly that the stomach also has a say in how we respond to fear; however, what it says, i.e. precisely what it signals, is not yet clear. The researchers hope, however, that they will be able to further clarify the role of the vagus nerve and the dialogue between brain and body in future studies.

 

More information: Klarer M, Arnold M, Günther L, Winter C, Langhans W, Meyer U: Gut Vagal Afferents Differentially Modulate Innate Anxiety and Learned Fear. The Journal of Neuroscience, 21 May 2014. DOI: 10.1523/JNEUROSCI.0252-14.2014

 

 

Edited July 21, 2015 by Bindi

[Jonesboy]

Oh Bindi,

 

Why are you on a spiritual website if you don't believe the teachers or the teachings?

 

Don't believe me that thoughts are energy and they start from the heart. Don't believe Ramana. Trust in science to tell you that you are thoughts and it starts in the gut..

 

Or

 

You can spend some time working on that technique and see if I am right. You can even read up on the Presence Process which is a 10wk course. A great thread over at AYP on it.

 

Good luck.

[Karl]

I wouldn't trust  my gut or my heart to drive my car either. 

 

But I would trust my gut instincts and gut feelings in emotional situations.

 

I wouldn't. :-) you have a huge brain that has incredible powers of reasoning. The gut is like an amoeba. Pretty basic animalistic.

Use the higher functions or they go soft.

[Bindi]

Oh Bindi,

 

Why are you on a spiritual website if you don't believe the teachers or the teachings?

 

Don't believe me that thoughts are energy and they start from the heart. Don't believe Ramana. Trust in science to tell you that you are thoughts and it starts in the gut..

 

Or

 

You can spend some time working on that technique and see if I am right. You can even read up on the Presence Process which is a 10wk course. A great thread over at AYP on it.

 

Good luck.

 

I agree that many things are processed by the heart, I never disputed this, but I believe that some things, such as fear, are processed in the gut. It would seem a shame to ignore where fear is processed, just because you, Ramana and a new age self help author say everything starts from the heart.

 

[Karl]

I agree that many things are processed by the heart, I never disputed this, but I believe that some things, such as fear, are processed in the gut. It would seem a shame to ignore where fear is processed, just because you, Ramana and a new age self help author say everything starts from the heart.

 

 

I always understood heart to mean centre and not the organ itself.

[Jetsun]

Ramana said that the sense of I leads back to the heart, I don't recall him ever saying that thoughts originate from the heart.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Jetsun

[Tibetan_Ice]

Bindi,

 

All thoughts start from the heart. Ramana agrees with me on this one.

 

...

 

You have oversimplified Ramana's teaching.

 

http://www.arunachala.org/ramana/teachings/

 

Mind

Mind is a wonderful force inherent in the Self. That which arises in this body as 'I' is the mind.

When the subtle mind emerges through the brain and the senses, the gross names and forms are cognized. When it remains in the Heart names and forms disappear... If the mind remains in the Heart, the 'I' or the ego which is the source of all thoughts will go, and the Self, the Real, Eternal 'I' alone will shine. Where there is not the slightest trace of the ego, there is the Self.

 

3 "Who Am I?" - Enquiry

 

For all thoughts the source is the 'I' thought.

The mind will merge only by Self-enquiry 'Who am I?' The thought 'Who am l?' will destroy all other thoughts and finally kill itself also. If other thoughts arise, without trying to complete them, one must enquire to whom did this thought arise. What does it matter how many thoughts arise? As each thought arises one must be watchful and ask to whom is this thought occurring. The answer will be 'to me'. If you enquire 'Who am I?' the mind will return to its source (or where it issued from). The thought which arose will also submerge. As you practise like this more and more, the power of the mind to remain as its source is increased.

 

So we see that the "ego" is the source of all thoughts, according to Ramana.

 

Also, to Ramana, the Heart is not the physical heart.

 

In that case, how can it be localized in any part of the body? Fixing a place for the heart would imply setting physiological limitations to That which is beyond space and time.

 

M: That is right. But the person who puts the question about the position of the heart, considers himself as existing with or in the body. While putting the question now, would you say that your body alone is here but that you are speaking from somewhere else? No, you accept your bodily existence. It is from this point of view that any reference to a physical body comes to be made.

 

Truly speaking, Pure Consciousness is indivisible, it is without parts. It has no form and shape, no ‘within’ and ‘without’. There is no ‘right’ or ‘left’ for it. Pure Consciousness, which is the heart, includes all; and nothing is outside or apart from it. That is the ultimate Truth.

 

From this absolute standpoint, the heart, Self or Consciousness can have no particular place assigned to it in the physical body. What is the reason? The body is itself a mere projection of the mind, and the mind is but a poor reflection of the radiant heart. How can That, in which everything is contained, be itself confined as a tiny part within the physical body which is but an infinitesimal, phenomenal manifestation of the one Reality?

 

But people do not understand this. They cannot help thinking in terms of the physical body and the world. For instance, you say, “I have come to this ashram all the way from my country beyond the Himalayas”. But that is not the truth. Where is a ‘coming’ or ‘going’ or any movement whatever, for the one, all-pervading Spirit which you really are? You are where you have always been. It is your body that moved or was conveyed from place to place till it reached this ashram.

 

– Ramana Maharshi

Tom, you never did answer my question about whether or not your breath has ever stopped during meditation...

Edited July 21, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[Jonesboy]

 

I agree that many things are processed by the heart, I never disputed this, but I believe that some things, such as fear, are processed in the gut. It would seem a shame to ignore where fear is processed, just because you, Ramana and a new age self help author say everything starts from the heart.

 

Hi Bindi,

 

That is a very good observation. Sorry I was wasn't thinking about emotional energy in that aspect.

 

Now it takes a lot for me to feel this but I know others who are sensitive to the emotional energy of others. The flow of negative energy is felt in the 3rd chakra. For some it can feel like a stabbing pain in the side depending on the intensity of the emotion.

 

If we share the issues/obstruction we start the process of feeling the physical sensation and then up to getting lost in mind stories.

 

It is all energy. Integrating the obstruction allows the energy to flow through and just like in meditation ones daily life can be ecstatic by learning to reside in such a manner.

 

I can't recommend The Presence Process enough. It is in no way easy to do, but the lessons learned have been invaluable.

[Jonesboy]

Ramana said that the sense of I leads back to the heart, I don't recall him ever saying that thoughts originate from the heart.

Hi Jetsun,

 

A little long but good.

 

 

http://www.angelfire.com/space2/light11/diction/ramana.html#11

 

Self-Enquiry – The nature of the Heart (Hridayam, Sphurana )

Evidently, self-consciousness is in relation to the individual himself and therefore has to be experienced in his being, with a centre in the body as the centre of experience. It resembles the dynamo of a machine, which gives rise to all sorts of electrical works. Not only [does] it [maintain] the life of the body and the activities of all its parts and organs, conscious and unconscious, but also the relation between the physical and the subtler planes, on which the individual functions. Also, like the dynamo, it vibrates and can be felt by the calm mind that pays attention to it. It is known to the yogis and sadhakas by the name of sphurana, which in samadhi scintillates with consciousness. (Ramana Maharshi, GR, 82.)

Wise men say that there is a connection between the source of the various psychic nerves and the Self, that this is the knot of the heart, that the connection between the sentient and the insentient will exist until this is cut asunder with the aid of true knowledge, that just as the subtle and invisible force of electricity travels through wires and does many wonderful things, so the force of the Self also travels through the psychic nerves and, pervading the entire body, imparts sentience to the senses, and that if this knot is cut the Self will remain as it always is, without any attributes. (Ramana Maharshi, SI, Chapter 2, Question 12.)

 

What is called the heart is no other than Brahman. (Ramana Maharshi, SE, answer to question 8.)

 

Call it by any name, God, Self, the Heart or the Seat of Consciousness, it is all the same. The point to be grasped is this, that HEART means the very Core of one's being, the Centre, without which there is nothing whatever. (Ramana Maharshi, MG, 72.)

 

[The Heart] is the Centre of spiritual experience according to the testimony of Sages. The spiritual Heart-centre is quite different from the blood- propelling, muscular organ known by the same name. The spiritual Heart-centre is not an organ of the body. All that you can say of the Heart is that it is the very Core of your being, that [with] which you are really identical (as the word in Sanskrit literally means), whether you are awake, asleep or dreaming, whether you are engaged in work or immersed in Samadhi. (Ramana Maharshi, MG, 73.)

 

The Heart … is different from the blood vessel, so called, and is not the Anahata Chakra in the middle of the chest, one of the six centres spoken of in books on Yoga. (Ramana Maharshi, KOL, 150.)

 

This heart is different from the physical heart; beating is the function of the latter. The former is the seat of spiritual experience. That is all that can be said of it.

 

Truly speaking pure Consciousness is indivisible, it is without parts. It has no form and shape, no “within” and “without.” There is no “right” or “left” for it. Pure Consciousness, which is the Heart, includes all; and nothing is outside or apart from it. That is the ultimate Truth

 

Skipping ahead ...

 

But people do not understand this. They cannot help thinking in terms of physical body and the world. For instance, you say "I have come to this Asramam all the way from my country beyond the Himalayas''. But that is not the truth. Where [is there] a “coming” or “going” or any movement whatever, for the one, all-pervading Spirit which you really are? You are where you have always been. It is your body that moved or was conveyed from place to place till it reached this Asramam.

 

This is the simple truth, but to a person who considers himself a subject living in an objective world, it appears as something altogether visionary!

 

It is by coming down to the level of the ordinary understanding that a place is assigned to the Heart in the physical body. (Ramana Maharshi, MG, 73-4.)

 

Heart is the seat of Jnanam as well as of the granthi (knot of ignorance). It is represented in the physical body by a hole smaller than the smallest pin-point, which is always shut. When the mind drops down in Kevalya Nirvikalpa [samadhi], it opens but shuts again after it. When sahaja [Nirvikalpa Samadhi] is attained it opens for good. The granthi is the knot which ties the insentient body to the consciousness which functions in it; that is why when it is loosened temporarily in Kevalya Nirvikalpa there is no body consciousness. (Ramana Maharshi, GR, 96.)

 

God is said to reside in the Heart in the same way as you are said to reside in your body. Yet Heart is not a place. Some place must be named as the dwelling of God for those who take their bodies for themselves and who comprehend only relative knowledge. The fact is neither God nor we occupy any space. We are bodiless and spaceless in deep sleep, yet in the waking state we appear to be the opposite. (Ramana Maharshi, GR, 97.)

 

Skipping again...

 

 

 

 

Self-Enquiry – The mind’s origin is in the Heart

That which rises as “I” in this body is the mind. If one inquires as to where in the body the thought “I” rises first, one would discover that it rises in the heart. That is the place of the mind's origin. (Ramana Maharshi, WHO, 13.)

If one inquires as to where in the body the thought “I” rises first, one would discover that it rises in the heart. That is the place of the mind's origin. (Ramana Maharshi, WHO, 13.)

 

It is true that the throat is stated to be the location of the mind, the face or the heart of the intellect, the navel of the memory, and the heart or sarvanga of the egoity; though differently stated thus yet, for the aggregate of these, that is the mind or internal organ, the location is the heart alone. This is conclusively declared in the Scriptures. (Ramana Maharshi, SE, answer to question 7.)

 

I ask you to observe where the “I” arises in your body, but it is not really quite correct to say that the “I” arises from and merges in the chest at the right side. The Heart is another name for Reality and this is neither inside nor outside the body. There can be no in or out for it, since it alone is. I do not mean by “heart” any physiological organ or any plexus or nerves or anything like that; but so long as a man identifies himself with the body or thinks he is in the body, he is advised to see where in the body the “I” - thought arises and merges again. It must be the heart at the right side of the chest since every man of whatever race and religion and in whatever language he may be speaking, points to the right side of the chest to indicate himself when he says “I.” This is so all over the world, so that must be the place. And by keenly watching the emergence of the “I” - thought on waking and its subsidence on going to sleep, one can see that it is in the heart on the right side. (Ramana Maharshi, TBSRM, Chapter 1.)

 

As instruments for knowing the objects the sense organs are outside, and so they are called outer senses; and the mind is called the inner sense because it is inside. But the distinction between inner and outer is only with reference to the body; in truth, there is neither inner or outer. The mind's nature is to remain pure like ether. What is referred to as the heart or the mind is the collocation of the elements (of phenomenal existence) that appear as inner and outer. So there is no doubt that all phenomena consisting of names and forms are of the nature of mind alone. All that appear outside are in reality inside and not outside; it is in order to teach this that in the Vedas also all have been described as of the nature of the heart. What is called the heart is no other than Brahman. (Ramana Maharshi, SE, answer to question 8.)

Edited July 22, 2015 by Jonesboy

[Jetsun]

Hi Jetsun,

 

A little long but good.

 

 

This doesn't say anything about thoughts originating from the heart 

 

Unless you talking about the heart in the sense the the heart is the same as the self, or absolute, but in that sense everything originates from there, but it has very little to do with what most people usually refer to when talking about the heart.

 

"From this absolute standpoint, the Heart, Self or Consciousness can have no particular place assigned to it in the physical body" (Ramana Maharshi)

[Jonesboy]

It does, it says it is in the physical body located where the heart chakra is located.

 

In the absolute since there is no heart or body. But what he is saying is that as you change depth and become more immersed in samsara there does become a location for the heart from which all things seem to arise.

 

From the same article.

 

 

If one inquires as to where in the body the thought “I” rises first, one would discover that it rises in the heart. That is the place of the mind's origin. (Ramana Maharshi, WHO, 13.)

 

It is true that the throat is stated to be the location of the mind, the face or the heart of the intellect, the navel of the memory, and the heart or sarvanga of the egoity; though differently stated thus yet, for the aggregate of these, that is the mind or internal organ, the location is the heart alone. This is conclusively declared in the Scriptures. (Ramana Maharshi, SE, answer to question 7.)

 

I ask you to observe where the “I” arises in your body, but it is not really quite correct to say that the “I” arises from and merges in the chest at the right side. The Heart is another name for Reality and this is neither inside nor outside the body. There can be no in or out for it, since it alone is. I do not mean by “heart” any physiological organ or any plexus or nerves or anything like that; but so long as a man identifies himself with the body or thinks he is in the body, he is advised to see where in the body the “I” - thought arises and merges again. It must be the heart at the right side of the chest since every man of whatever race and religion and in whatever language he may be speaking, points to the right side of the chest to indicate himself when he says “I.” This is so all over the world, so that must be the place. And by keenly watching the emergence of the “I” - thought on waking and its subsidence on going to sleep, one can see that it is in the heart on the right side. (Ramana Maharshi, TBSRM, Chapter 1.)

Edited July 22, 2015 by Jonesboy

[Jetsun]

There is a mixing up of absolute and relative meanings throughout all of that text.

 

Just because the original "I" thought emerges at the heart it doesn't mean that the brain doesn't create thoughts. In absolute terms the absolute creates everything, but that doesn't negate the relative reality.

 

If you are sensitive you can feel thoughts vibrate at the level of the brain. And you can do brain scans which show which areas of the brain light up when you think about certain things.

[Jonesboy]

There is a mixing up of absolute and relative meanings throughout all of that text.

 

Just because the original "I" thought emerges at the heart it doesn't mean that the brain doesn't create thoughts. In absolute terms the absolute creates everything, but that doesn't negate the relative reality.

 

If you are sensitive you can feel thoughts vibrate at the level of the brain. And you can do brain scans which show which areas of the brain light up when you think about certain things.

I agree

 

I am also saying if you go deeper you will find it in the heart.