Suffering

[Karl]

You ask if there is no joy from life? You are missing some pieces here..

According to Buddhism, joy promotes samsara and will not end suffering..

The fulfillment of desires just breeds more desires.

Perhaps you should now read the teaching of Dependent Origination...https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Nidānas

 

I don't really need to. I think I understand it, I'm not sure you do? Joy does not end suffering, I would agree with that and that is not what I implied. I asked if he got any joy from life, as currently he believes his entire life is suffering.

 

Desire is inherent in humanity, but there are false desires which do not match against reality. The desire to be free of pain is one such desire. The desire that a new car/job/partner will make you into the person you imagine you should be and thus bring final relief from the doubts.

 

However joy of life is a different thing. All things are equal. Therefore there is a separation of likes and dislikes from unconditional love of life's realities. That means you can leave likes/dislikes untouched, yet never stop loving what is. It means I love my enemies as deeply as my friends, but it does not mean I like my enemies behaviour. I love the reality of pain, but I do not enjoy pain, but it was never intended to be enjoyable. I like Pizza, but if I do not receive Pizza I love that I don't.

 

I'm not a Buddhist, but this seems to run through pretty much all religions generally. That is the end of suffering. This is how it is for me. It is a commitment to life, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, for ever and ever.

 

All that and I've never been part of any religion.

 

 

[allinone]

if you say you love your enemies. It isn't unconditional.

 

Closer to unconditional is thinking that tomorrow you might be no enemies anymore. Today you are enemies but actually not enemies. But its not you who decides who is your enemy, its already decided by your desire.

Also main desire is your first choice and you don't see it because you act on it before you get to know you did it. 

 

If you love your enemy and still can't get along then its hypocrisy. Rather you don't love your enemy but think you are beyond them obviously then you can enjoy their failure to defeat you.

Its against nature not to feel bad after getting defeated. If you don't feel bad then you haven't lost in the eyes of nature, of course laws of the game could say otherwise.

 

I think unconditional love is only possible to realize if you admit defeat while in the eyes of nature you are winning. But first need to overcome your own ignorance of thinking you are the one who is in charge.

[Karl]

if you say you love your enemies. It isn't unconditional.

 

Closer to unconditional is thinking that tomorrow you might be no enemies anymore. Today you are enemies but actually not enemies. But its not you who decides who is your enemy, its already decided by your desire.

Also main desire is your first choice and you don't see it because you act on it before you get to know you did it. 

 

If you love your enemy and still can't get along then its hypocrisy. Rather you don't love your enemy but think you are beyond them obviously then you can enjoy their failure to defeat you.

Its against nature not to feel bad after getting defeated. If you don't feel bad then you haven't lost in the eyes of nature, of course laws of the game could say otherwise.

 

I think unconditional love is only possible to realize if you admit defeat while in the eyes of nature you are winning. But first need to overcome your own ignorance of thinking you are the one who is in charge.

 

As I don't have enemies so that's perfectly true. If I'm defeated then I'm defeated, I will dislike it, but continue to love it. I am in charge-of me.

 

It's unconditional love, I require nothing from it at all. There is no gain-which is something I would strenuously argue against when altruism is mentioned-but here there is no giving either. This isn't altruism, it's a love of the reality of things, which is a love of life. As I already have life it's impossible to add a quantity of extra life. I hadn't thought about any of this until it was brought up. It's quite strange exploring it. So 'enemies' would not be different to 'circumstances' and neither can I, or do I wish to control either.

[Tibetan_Ice]

I don't really need to. I think I understand it, I'm not sure you do? Joy does not end suffering, I would agree with that and that is not what I implied. I asked if he got any joy from life, as currently he believes his entire life is suffering. Desire is inherent in humanity, but there are false desires which do not match against reality. The desire to be free of pain is one such desire. The desire that a new car/job/partner will make you into the person you imagine you should be and thus bring final relief from the doubts. However joy of life is a different thing. All things are equal. Therefore there is a separation of likes and dislikes from unconditional love of life's realities. That means you can leave likes/dislikes untouched, yet never stop loving what is. It means I love my enemies as deeply as my friends, but it does not mean I like my enemies behaviour. I love the reality of pain, but I do not enjoy pain, but it was never intended to be enjoyable. I like Pizza, but if I do not receive Pizza I love that I don't. I'm not a Buddhist, but this seems to run through pretty much all religions generally. That is the end of suffering. This is how it is for me. It is a commitment to life, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, for ever and ever. All that and I've never been part of any religion.

It is you who doesn't understand the Buddhist teaching that unless you get rid of ignorance, the whole of life is samsara, which is dukkha.

 

Again you present that Byron Katie crap. You have been poisoned and no longer seek a way out. If Buddha had loved "what is" he would have never sought an end to samsara. He had motivation. Your formula kills motivation.

[Karl]

It is you who doesn't understand the Buddhist teaching that unless you get rid of ignorance, the whole of life is samsara, which is dukkha.

Again you present that Byron Katie crap. You have been poisoned and no longer seek a way out. If Buddha had loved "what is" he would have never sought an end to samsara. He had motivation. Your formula kills motivation.

Me and Buddah would be bezzy mates. :-) you could maybe have a drink with us if we weren't too busy.;-)

 

I've read about Dukkha from the link you gave and it accords precisely with what I'm saying. No difference what so ever.

 

BC was more formulaic saying 'do this get that'. Neither do I propose that anyone follow what I'm doing, or have done. I don't believe there is one solution to suffering, we are all individuals, so it follows that those experiences and actions will necessarily be different. However I see many commonalities with Buddhism now you have pointed me towards it.

 

I don't know what you think you are seeking a way out of ? There is nowhere to go unless you count death as a destination. Loving reality isn't 'loving what is'. There is a subtle, but very important distinction. BK is-I think-like a dream solution, it's effective in that state.

 

You follow the Buddhist route the way you interpret it if it's right for you. Nowt to do with me. We are just talking.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Karl

[ChiForce]

Me and Buddah would be bezzy mates. :-) you could maybe have a drink with us if we weren't too busy.;-)

 

I've read about Dukkha from the link you gave and it accords precisely with what I'm saying. No difference what so ever.

 

BC was more formulaic saying 'do this get that'. Neither do I propose that anyone follow what I'm doing, or have done. I don't believe there is one solution to suffering, we are all individuals, so it follows that those experiences and actions will necessarily be different. However I see many commonalities with Buddhism now you have pointed me towards it.

 

I don't know what you think you are seeking a way out of ? There is nowhere to go unless you count death as a destination. Loving reality isn't 'loving what is'. There is a subtle, but very important distinction. BK is-I think-like a dream solution, it's effective in that state.

 

You follow the Buddhist route the way you interpret it if it's right for you. Nowt to do with me. We are just talking.

Your reality like your unlicensed practice of psychotherapy???  You can't talk about reality if you don't know what reality is.  Your reality is logic and rationalization (same BS) which are solely in your head, and aren't subjected to the movement of TIME...and so the your ego is perceiving your reality that way.  We do know that your body and the world around your are constantly changing.  No one can escape the goddess of TIME.  

 

I am waiting for the TIME when your ego would experience a violent death in all its glory.  Hehehehehehe.....  This mindless trolling on the Dao Bum won't do it because you can hide behind your computer screen.  It has to take place in your reality, in your real world, with real people.  Seeing the Buddha?  You are lucky you won't see the devil himself disguised as Buddha.    It would be hilarious if certain supernatural events are happening to you because an inflated, deluded ego tends to attract entities...... 

Edited August 15, 2015 by ChiForce

[Karl]

Your reality like your unlicensed practice of psychotherapy???  You can't talk about reality if you don't know what reality is.  Your reality is logic and rationalization (same BS) which are solely in your head, and aren't subjected to the movement of TIME...and so the your ego is perceiving your reality that way.  We do know that your body and the world around your are constantly changing.  No one can escape the goddess of TIME.  

 

I am waiting for the TIME when your ego would experience a violent death in all its glory.  Hehehehehehe.....  This mindless trolling on the Dao Bum won't do it because you can hide behind your computer screen.  It has to take place in your reality, in your real world, with real people.  Seeing the Buddha?  You are lucky you won't see the devil himself disguised as Buddha.    It would be hilarious if certain supernatural events are happening to you because an inflated, deluded ego tends to attract entities...... 

 

It would certainly be hilarious and quite impossible for super natural things to be happening, but eat your heart out :-) maybe that's just where you live ?

 

You still going on about unlicensed therapy ? I have millions of unlicensed things I do, indeed my entire career has never required licences.

 

Time is tied up with logic as it is with everything else.

 

I'm going to meet quite a few real people tonight so you can have a night off from trolling me.

 

[Tibetan_Ice]

...

 

That means you can leave likes/dislikes untouched, yet never stop loving what is. It means I love my enemies as deeply as my friends, but it does not mean I like my enemies behaviour. I love the reality of pain, but I do not enjoy pain, but it was never intended to be enjoyable. I like Pizza, but if I do not receive Pizza I love that I don't. I'm not a Buddhist, but this seems to run through pretty much all religions generally. That is the end of suffering. This is how it is for me. It is a commitment to life, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, for ever and ever. All that and I've never been part of any religion.

Loving life is a good thing. It opens the heart and helps to create relative and absolute Bodhicitta.

 

However, even if loving life is a good thing, according to Buddhism, it isn't going to stop dukkha. The only thing that stops dukkha is through the wisdom of resolving ignorance. It is only by realizing the true nature of reality, absolute reality, that suffering ends.

 

The four noble truths.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths

 

So, loving everything, although it is a good thing, does not resolve grasping and aversion.

In your pizza example, you said that you like pizza. Liking pizza is a form of grasping, created by contact with the form of pizza through the senses, through the pleasurable taste of pizza. This produced grasping and craving for more pizza. Thus the grasping solidified a state deep in your subconsciousness (the alaya vijinana). You end up with a voice in your head that shouts out "I like pizza! Next meal, we eat pizza!" Then, as a result of this, when you die, you will be reborn somewhere near a pizza shop.

 

Loving life isn't going to stop that.

 

Buddhism is a recipe to end rebirth. It is a method of examining reality in order to ascertain the truth about existence.

 

Have you ever heard of the five lights? Although the Buddhist philosophers like Nargajuna say that nothing is arising, there is the idea that reality begins as the rising of the five lights from the dharmakaya. If there is ignorance, then the five lights arise as the five impure elements of earth, water, fire, air and space. If there is no ignorance, then the five elements arise and are seen in their pure form as appearances of light. A being who realizes this, whom has purified their ignorance realizes the pure five lights and can walk through walls, leave their footprints in stone etc... They have realized the emptiness of reality, or, they have realized the absolute reality. For such a being, there is truly no more suffering. They could manifest pizza anytime (or fishes) although they probably wouldn't need to eat anymore.

 

One day I was walking into the building where I work and a sort of shift happened. I found myself emerged in an ocean of white light and the normal reality that I was in appeared as a circular perception a ways away and directly in front of me. The entrance to the building, the whole visual scene had been reduced to a 5 foot sort of bubble which I was perceiving from about 5 feet away. I was amazed. It was then that I understood that I was grasping at my life, that all I had to do was desire to be back in life and that I would be back. So that is what I did. But I also realized that I was somehow separate from the bubble, and that I could grasp at other bubbles in the white light and experience those lives.

 

So far, Buddhism has come the closest to being able to offer any logical explanation of that event. I did not cause the event, I was not doing anything in particular of a concentrative or mystical practice nature at the time. But it sure changed my understanding of what absolute reality might be. Also, Advaita Vedanta seems to be very close.

 

So, for me it has been the case of having an experience, then the rational mind wants a logical explanation so it goes off and tries to find answers. At this point I am convinced that if one were to quit grasping totally at one's own life, they would realize that same white light state as I experienced. So any teaching that promotes non-grasping has particular value for me.

 

Now let's not eat pizza, it is really bad for you..

 

[Karl]

A thirsty man craves water.

 

The suffering arises in the mind not because of the craving-it cannot be escaped. If water is not forthcoming then the body will perish in much pain, but no suffering is required. Man can decide if he wishes to suffer or not by seperating liking from loving.

 

Likewise Pizza and Buddhist ideals. It's inescapable, whatever you fixate on will become desired and so it's only necessary to see desire as the reality and then desire becomes liking and reality becomes loving.

 

That's what works for me. I don't pretend it's the perfect solution that others demand, but it has been effective in changing my life around and I don't suffer. I certainly knew what suffering was, it was a full time occupation for me, now there is peace. I have Pizza as Pizza appears in the moment. That isn't a kind of fanciful interpretation, that's exactly how it is. It seems to me that this is how we all are naturally.

 

Pizza-virtually health food. :-)

Edited August 16, 2015 by Karl