3bob Posted July 20, 2015 There are many forms of hate in our world, granted in the endgame hatred loses the war and "everything will be all right" but right now and in the meantime so many of us are loosing in so many ways .... so what to do at this point of the war? I've been doing the "duck and cover" since the 3rd grade with the threat of M.A.D. and all sorts of other stuff that is going on and it's getting real old... "we didn't start the fire" but it sure is burning. It's great that the true Self is not touched, hurt by, or attached to any of this worldly stuff but everything else is and that on going amount of suffering is getting real old also. Does the entire cosmos have to end - to end the forms of suffering for the unenlightened within it? Btw, if certain of the public or private enlightened types are not also suffering for those less fortunate than them then they are fakes imo. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Karl Posted July 20, 2015 There are many forms of hate in our world, granted in the endgame hatred loses the war and "everything will be all right" but right now and in the meantime so many of us are loosing in so many ways .... so what to do at this point of the war? I've been doing the "duck and cover" since the 3rd grade with the threat of M.A.D. and all sorts of other stuff that is going on and it's getting real old... "we didn't start the fire" but it sure is burning. It's great that the true Self is not touched, hurt by, or attached to any of this worldly stuff but everything else is and that on going amount of suffering is getting real old also. Does the entire cosmos have to end - to end the forms of suffering for the unenlightened within it? Btw, if certain of the public or private enlightened types are not also suffering for those less fortunate than them then they are fakes imo. I have asked that many times over the years. The answer is to see there is not really 'everyone else' but only self. Then all thoughts and actions are in accordance with self. If that isn't yet possible for you then perhaps a reading of Albert J Nocks 'Issiahs Job' essay might help. We have a finite time here as individuals, we are brief sparks, our efforts are mere stepping stones on a vast river. It is our job to ensure that the stone we leave is true and sound, it is the very best we could have made no matter how poor the material or clumsy our hands. Nothing else is required. Live your life by that analogy and let the impermanence of others wash over you. Then you will see that the world is just perfect as it is and appreciate it for what it is. For it is a miracle and you are of it and witness to it. I don't say this in a flowery, peace and tofu sense. To act this way takes immense courage, one does not withdraw from the world, one engages like a knight in battle. Establishment in the self is the act of the brave, it is to say 'I am that' and there is no end to the realities which I shall greatfuly accept. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 20, 2015 The answer is to see there is not really 'everyone else' but only self. Then all thoughts and actions are in accordance with self. To act this way takes immense courage, one does not withdraw from the world, one engages like a knight in battle. Establishment in the self is the act of the brave, it is to say 'I am that' and there is no end to the realities which I shall greatfuly accept. I just wanted to be able to "Like" these two concepts. Hate is ugly and I think one will never find inner peace if their heart (mind) is filled with hate. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted July 20, 2015 (edited) Karl, Thanks for the review of concepts and your feedback, those are things I've known of for many decades including the truth of transcendent Self that is already perfect, (as pointed to in the Upanishads) yet I'm still getting tired of the forced play being run with it's nearly endless episodes of good and evil forces along with all of us creatures (so to speak) being more or less caught between the acts and actions of same. And yes, leaving a fine stepping stone is a noble thing to do for what else is there to do - really, and doing so as a good "knight" does make a difference to those suffering in the production, so I guess I'm having some trouble with the writer, director and producer. Edited July 20, 2015 by 3bob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted July 20, 2015 Did the historic Buddha hate creation and thus hang up his hat and quit the play early? I wouldn't put it that way since he played and finished his part nobly and thus earned his exit from the stage. Cobi, I don't like manipulation, btw karma is just - no hate in that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jetsun Posted July 20, 2015 I don't think the cosmos will have to end but humanity may not survive with the way things are going. There are many working at deeper levels to try to help the situation but who knows if they will succeed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Karl Posted July 20, 2015 Karl, Thanks for the review of concepts and your feedback, those are things I've known of for many decades including the truth of transcendent Self that is already perfect, (as pointed to in the Upanishads) yet I'm still getting tired of the forced play being run with it's nearly endless episodes of good and evil forces along with all of us creatures (so to speak) being more or less caught between the acts and actions of same. And yes, leaving a fine stepping stone is a noble thing to do for what else is there to do - really, and doing so as a good "knight" does make a difference to those suffering in the production, so I guess I'm having some trouble with the writer, director and producer. Who is suffering ? Find that one. For a long time I understood the same, then there was nothing to understand, I had deceived myself. That you know and understand the transcendent self, means there must be someone to whom that understanding arises. Can you notice that subtle distinction ? In the self there can be nothing to realise. If you know all about the self then who is doing the knowing of the self ? Are there two, self and another who is other than self ? It seems like it's all just in the words and it's annoying to have it pointed out, but it has to be resolved and it's stubborn. I don't mean to give a lecture here, I'm just making an observation, which may or may not be helpful. If it isn't then please ignore it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted July 20, 2015 (edited) Who is enlightened ? "Find that one." thus the same kind of mental deal going on as in your example. Btw, only the Self knows the Self and not some mental rumination or talking head that is echoing on about it, although echo's can and do have their place and uses, also an echo in first connection to the first drum has cosmic power and truth at that level. Edited July 20, 2015 by 3bob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted July 20, 2015 (edited) When you see hate, confront it, afterwards walk away. Beware entanglement in it. Beware letting it prey on your mind, robbing you of your peace. We can do a little for the world and we should, but don't expect to change it. We can do a whole lot with ourselves; and maybe walking a peaceful path and abiding in calmness, tolerance and kindness is the best we can achieve. <or be a warrior but know; the dominoes you push over will fall in unknown paths> We didn't start the fire, but we can choose not to fuel or fan it. We do much good by simply moving away debris. Edited July 20, 2015 by thelerner 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted July 20, 2015 lerner, I appreciate the thought yet I think you also know (and as you imply) that once one confronts a major enough force then the battle is never over, and if you lose then the only bringer of "peace" is death, not unlike when the American Indians said, "it's a good day to die". (not being in fear of death but in fear of personal coward-ness and also enslavement of their people) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) I think when you confront a major force. For some there is the path of the hero and for others the heroic thing to do is to survive. Survive despite fear of cowardice, fear of loss, fear of living. Survive for those did sacrifice, survive so there is a legacy and a chance for justice. The only complete loss is when you become what you hate. Edited July 21, 2015 by thelerner 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) It's a tricky business becoming a relentless killer based on spiritual compassion and wisdom, one of the reasons I've always had trouble with the battlefield where Krishna is giving out advice along such lines... Edited July 21, 2015 by 3bob 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bud Jetsun Posted July 21, 2015 Hate is a constructed manifestation of fear-thought alone. It's root is fear-thought alone with all the other 'negative' emotions/thoughts/perceptions, just as Love-thought is the root of all positive emotions/thoughts/perceptions etc. The human mind to the limit of my own ability to probe the nature of it has all thought arise from either fear or Love exclusively, and when it appears to be something other than fear or love one is simply tricked by the illusion and hasn't completed following the thought to it's root. If you're having a thought, it came from a Love-based or fear-based conception. If you're having a thought you're also inherently in a state of self-delusion, as thoughts must have a beginning, middle, and end, and therefore can't exist in the Now which is all that is real. For this reason, discussion of thoughts or anything with words is exclusively and inherently just delusions, which is why it's so easy to have illusionary constructs like 'hate' seem so plain and obviously real to so many who's ego's don't like to acknowledge there own fear that creates the illusion. There is only your natural state being in the Now. The things we create words (constructs) for and discuss are pieces of the delusion we create to replace our awareness and ability to perceive the natural state. Some pretend hate is not just fear-thought to empower their illusions, in every example I've encountered yet, this has simply meant they didn't choose to follow the origin of the hate illusion back to it's source, but rather back to it's illusion of source. With Unlimited Love, -Bud 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted July 21, 2015 Thanks for the input Bud, I'd present another way of considering thought: Energy of now is flowing through a thought now, thus that thought is also more or less now per the energy flow, and the stronger the energy within that thought the easier it is to manifest quickly to almost instantly... Btw, my Bud light is not an illusion, nor do I have a love or hate thought about it unless it is hot, btw its' hard but one could follow its origin back to the first beer, like to Lemuria Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Karl Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) Who is enlightened ? "Find that one." thus the same kind of mental deal going on as in your example. Btw, only the Self knows the Self and not some mental rumination or talking head that is echoing on about it, although echo's can and do have their place and uses, also an echo in first connection to the first drum has cosmic power and truth at that level. I think you may have lost the subtle distinction. 'Only the self knows the self' is incorrect. There is only self. The self does not know its self the self is only. Just as the eye cannot perceive itself then neither can self (conscious awareness) perceive itself. It is perception and perception cannot perceive perception. 'Who is enlightened ? Find that one'. That is the start of inquiry, but it is not the answer. Doing inquiry might be the mechanism, it is hard to say it provides the answer because there is no answer required. That's what's crazy about doing all this meditation and inquiry, it's all for nothing, it achieves nothing except to learn how to do it. It is merely a distraction, an adjunct. The mental ruminations are real and defined, there is no doubt of that. They cannot be said to be false or mistaken, they exist, not in the sense of concretion of course, but they are still reality. If you deny them there will be conflict. Every time reality is denied there is conflict and suffering. I also know it can be frustrating and annoying to be told what you already know. That is real too. If it is reality for you then don't deny it. See the truth in the thought or feeling it creates. The discrepancy is when you think you should not think a particular thing when you are thinking a particular thing. Edited July 21, 2015 by Karl Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Karl Posted July 21, 2015 When you see hate, confront it, afterwards walk away. Beware entanglement in it. Beware letting it prey on your mind, robbing you of your peace. We can do a little for the world and we should, but don't expect to change it. We can do a whole lot with ourselves; and maybe walking a peaceful path and abiding in calmness, tolerance and kindness is the best we can achieve. We didn't start the fire, but we can choose not to fuel or fan it. We do much good by simply moving away debris. If it does prey on your mind then there is little point in denying it. We cannot choose our thoughts, they come and go, we cannot stop the mind we can only come to know we perceive directly without illusion. If we deny it then there is conflict and suffering. If we are walking a peaceful path then we do that and then we are fighting and we do that, or we are frightened and that we must also do. All in the light of awareness. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 21, 2015 lerner, I appreciate the thought yet I think you also know (and as you imply) that once one confronts a major enough force then the battle is never over, and if you lose then the only bringer of "peace" is death, not unlike when the American Indians said, "it's a good day to die". (not being in fear of death but in fear of personal coward-ness and also enslavement of their people) I read this last night and didn't like it and reading it again this morning I still don't like it. IMO, to die as a result of someone else's intentual doing is always unacceptable. As long as we live the game is never over. Failure does not mean defeat if you managed to survive. "The Will To Power" is a fantastic concept. (But not to be confused with the desire to have power over others.) And as I nave mentioned before, better to be enslaved than to be killed. If we still live there is the possibility for escape. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) Karl, You got it all wrong, (per your own mental tricks) if such turns your crank and gets you down the road somewhere. Good luck. Edited July 21, 2015 by 3bob 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) Better to be free than enslaved, and if that means death of the body although not death of honor in soul or spirit as some inter-change the terms, then so be it... And yes, some may go underground or out of sight to survive and thus fight another day but even then it will still come back to facing what is said in the first sentence being that "another day" will arrive in war, so in the end there is no way to get around it. Also and if out of fear of death one joins or becomes the enslaver that they would have been free of then the game is over for they have died in essence. (just like the Nazi puppets did who turned against their own people instead of fighting for the resistance) Edited July 21, 2015 by 3bob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Karl Posted July 21, 2015 Karl, You got it all wrong, (per your own mental tricks) if such turns your crank and gets you down the road somewhere. Good luck. I respect you opinion, but let's see you to try and prove it. Im no longer going somewhere I already am. There is no more than I see. If you think you can show me something else I'm open to trial. :-) I know your a good sort without malice and devoid of negative ego so let's go ahead and debate it. You search for the truth and I have the truth. This is not mind games it's the way the world really is, but if you wish to contradict I'm completely and utterly open to that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) Well Karl I'm somewhat familiar with the 'neo' this and that of where it sounds like you are coming from, btw I could pick apart your sentences with your own modus-operandi or types of devices but I'm not that interested in doing so, besides I'm short on time a lot of the time. (conventionally speaking if you will) Apparently you've read some of this and that and know some jargon as evident in your text but it escapes me as to why in the world you would want to change anybody's mind about anything along the lines of proof that we know can not be proved, example no one can prove or disprove God to another, and trying to do so would be at least a futile exercise. Edited July 21, 2015 by 3bob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Karl Posted July 21, 2015 Well Karl I'm somewhat familiar with the 'neo' this and that of where it sounds like you are coming from, btw I could pick apart your sentences with your own modus-operandi or types of devices but I'm not that interested in doing so, besides I'm short on time a lot of the time. (conventionally speaking if you will) Apparently you've read some of this and that and know some jargon as evident in your text but it escapes me as to why in the world you would want to change anybody's mind about anything along the lines of proof that we know can not be proved, example no one can prove or disprove God to another, and trying to do so would be at least a futile exercise. Go, go, go because this is what I welcome and not a closed discussion. There is no concern of offence, go straight in, I'm bored by this formality. Let's have at it and sod the consequences. I will joust and will give up what is fairly won. So it is for you must prove the existence of God. You have said that much. I am not about changing anyone's mind, here we discuss and get to the heart of the matter, putting aside our shields. Otherwise what is the point of it ? If you have made up your mind and I have made up mine then we discover nothing new. I know you aren't that type of person, I can see you are genuine and that is sufficient, as indeed it is for Jeff. Let's get to the truth, to reality in one go. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted July 21, 2015 If it does prey on your mind then there is little point in denying it. We cannot choose our thoughts, they come and go, we cannot stop the mind we can only come to know we perceive directly without illusion. If we deny it then there is conflict and suffering. If we are walking a peaceful path then we do that and then we are fighting and we do that, or we are frightened and that we must also do. All in the light of awareness. Maybe we can't choose our thoughts (& emotions), but we can feed them. Keeping them alive way after the events have past, turning them into a needle that we perversely use to prick ourselves with. It keeps us from walking a peaceful path as often as we should; keeps us fighting or frightened when there's no immediate threat. Sometimes the best use for the light of awareness is seeing the needles we've created so we can put them away. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
