Socialism does work

[Karl]

I "Liked" your post even though I don't agree with all of it.

 

Socialism can work in certain areas of societies but it requires a lot of devotion and fewer billionaires.

 

In time I think you will change your mind as I changed mine.

 

Devotion to a corrupt ideology is not a good place to start. The very word 'devotion' is symptomatic of what socialism really is. A religion. I don't know what you mean about 'fewer billionaires' ?

[zerostao]

watching the entire debate on OxfordUnion--cool stuff--thanks apech

edit> i knew Milton would find his way into it..from hannan

Edited July 20, 2015 by zerostao

[ralis]

Thou doth protesteth too much. If you cannot understand that selfishness is equally a force for good then what can I conclude? You only imply the bad. This is socialism. It is the ideology of the jealous and envious. If you really spoke for the disenfranchised you would realise that means freedom from tyranny. The right to exist without trespass in any form. That you don't is telling. My work is founded on reality, nothing more. I don't have an 'ideology' that is again a socialistic argument. I have a praxeological truth that man acts. I need no more than that from which to understand the world. I don't need to measure every triangle in the world to know that Pythagoras theorem works. I do not cling to Hayek, Friedman or even Rothbard bless his heart Because I have no need to. I don't need to dispute Marx either. Reality is clear as a fresh spring.

 

I am discussing where selfishness has been a force for the negative here in the U.S. I can cite many occurrences of.

[Apech]

If anyone would care to watch the second video I posted:

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/38911-socialism-does-work/?p=636111

 

will discover that socialism does not = the government does everything.

 

Socialism is the idea that the goal of political organisation is social good for all and should be compared with the Adam Smith idea that the selfish pursuit of the individual is the key to general happiness.

 

i.e. with the UK NHS health care because of cost centre provisioning and so the state is actually being the capitalist BUT the aim to create a healthy population is socialist because it is not geared to meeting individual demand but the health of all.

[Karl]

Pure capitalism/free markets are illusions and not based on logic or reality. State one instance where free markets have worked.

 

Free markets are at work all the time, our wealth was founded on them. When they are shut down as they were in Russia the results are evident. It created the rise of black market enterprises which are another example of a type of free market. Without those black markets Russia would have folded far earlier.

 

You need to show examples of where socialism has been spectacularly successful.

 

Free markets aren't an ideology, they are human nature. The freedom to trade with whoever we like, to compete, to profit from serving the people and suffer losses for poor service. If you could only understand that much we would be miles further on.

[Marblehead]

In time I think you will change your mind as I changed mine.

But I don't have much time left.

[ralis]

If anyone would care to watch the second video I posted:

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/38911-socialism-does-work/?p=636111

 

will discover that socialism does not = the government does everything.

 

Socialism is the idea that the goal of political organisation is social good for all and should be compared with the Adam Smith idea that the selfish pursuit of the individual is the key to general happiness.

 

i.e. with the UK NHS health care because of cost centre provisioning and so the state is actually being the capitalist BUT the aim to create a healthy population is socialist because it is not geared to meeting individual demand but the health of all.

 

I agree.

Edited July 20, 2015 by ralis

[Karl]

@Karl,

 

My posts regarding fascism. Linked are a few references regarding my reading. BTW, I am not a mental lightweight regarding this subject or any other topic I write on this forum. If you stoop to inappropriate content toward me, you will be reported to the mods. 

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/22292-is-the-west-slowly-descending-into-fascism/?hl=fascism

 

http://www.amazon.com/Richard-Hofstadter/e/B000AP8JTE

 

http://www.amazon.com/Ian-Kershaw/e/B001ITX4WI

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_13?url=search-alias=stripbooks&field-keywords=rise+and+fall+of+the+third+reich&sprefix=rise+and+fall,stripbooks,210

 

No, that's not what I asked. I don't need to know what you have read. I'm interested in your own personal definition of fascism and socialism/communism. You do the work because otherwise we are getting nowhere fast. I could put up two definitions, but it's better if you make the effort to define them and go through the process which reveals much. The process is all. It's not easy to do. See if you can beat the current efforts.

[ralis]

Free markets are at work all the time, our wealth was founded on them. When they are shut down as they were in Russia the results are evident. It created the rise of black market enterprises which are another example of a type of free market. Without those black markets Russia would have folded far earlier. You need to show examples of where socialism has been spectacularly successful. Free markets aren't an ideology, they are human nature. The freedom to trade with whoever we like, to compete, to profit from serving the people and suffer losses for poor service. If you could only understand that much we would be miles further on.

 

 

Free is a misnomer and implies one can do anything one pleases without limit or legal ramifications. Stop twisting the argument. Black markets exist here in the U.S. also.

[Brian]

The problem is that those with a Left Wing Liberal mindset always believe that they will do better than the examples you have given. This is the real tragedy and it is virtually impossible to convince them otherwise. It should also be mentioned that when things do go wrong it is never their fault.

I have someone close to me who espouses hard-left political ideals. During one of our last politics/economy conversations, I started listing the examples of socialism ending in heartache and misery. Her response was (I am paraphrasing but this was pretty close), "Yes, but it is such a good idea, we have to keep trying!"

 

Ummm... No. No, we don't.

[ralis]

No, that's not what I asked. I don't need to know what you have read. I'm interested in your own personal definition of fascism and socialism/communism. You do the work because otherwise we are getting nowhere fast. I could put up two definitions, but it's better if you make the effort to define them and go through the process which reveals much. The process is all. It's not easy to do. See if you can beat the current efforts.

 

I am not interested in your condescending remarks. Without references to academic and historical works, then my posts are incomplete. Read the thread referenced if you are interested. Otherwise, you are changing the subject. BTW, I am well educated and will not fall for specious arguments/non sequiters and whatever device you use to manipulate the discussion.

[Karl]

But I don't have much time left.

 

none of us do, so use that time productively :-)

[Brian]

The terms "free market" and "capitalism" are intended to be divisive and misleading.

 

The truth is, the human animal trades. This is natural.

 

What is also natural is for some people to feel that they can manipulate trade to their own benefit. When this manipulation is given the backing of the force of a government's guns, bad things happen.

 

Even without the force of the government's guns, bad things happen. If they didn't there would be no need to employ force.

 

If, after a century of training people in government indoctrination programs for roughly 15 years each, people are still not entirely willing to be sheep, perhaps that is because people aren't really sheep.

[Karl]

Free is a misnomer and implies one can do anything one pleases without limit or legal ramifications. Stop twisting the argument. Black markets exist here in the U.S. also.

 

Free does not imply that at all. If it did we would use it in a sentence 'free to do what one likes'. We are not free to do as we like because it is inherently harmful to us to do so. That's why we have reasoning powers, we have the free will to choose how we act.

 

It begins from the basis of private property and that is our minds and bodies.

 

Who said the U.S. Was a free market, it isn't. There are parts which are nominally free, but to all intents and purposes it is a fascistic economic model.

 

That's why I think the excessive of defining it is important. It gives insights than cannot be had purely by reading books on the subject. You have to define it for yourself.

[Apech]

No, that's not what I asked. I don't need to know what you have read. I'm interested in your own personal definition of fascism and socialism/communism. You do the work because otherwise we are getting nowhere fast. I could put up two definitions, but it's better if you make the effort to define them and go through the process which reveals much. The process is all. It's not easy to do. See if you can beat the current efforts.

 

 

Slightly patronising tone I see.

[Apech]

The terms "free market" and "capitalism" are intended to be divisive and misleading.

 

The truth is, the human animal trades. This is natural.

 

What is also natural is for some people to feel that they can manipulate trade to their own benefit. When this manipulation is given the backing of the force of a government's guns, bad things happen.

 

Even without the force of the government's guns, bad things happen. If they didn't there would be no need to employ force.

 

If, after a century of training people in government indoctrination programs for roughly 15 years each, people are still not entirely willing to be sheep, perhaps that is because people aren't really sheep.

 

Wot?

[Karl]

I am not interested in your condescending remarks. Without references to academic and historical works, then my posts are incomplete. Read the thread referenced if you are interested. Otherwise, you are changing the subject. BTW, I am well educated and will not fall for specious arguments/non sequiters and whatever device you use to manipulate the discussion.

 

Get to work then. Stop making excuses. If you can then you will. If you can't, then it will be clear to all that you are unable to support your propositions and you can stop clanging like an empty can.

 

I believe in you, I know you can do it. You told me you were well educated-all I'm asking is you demonstrate your competence. It's just a simple challenge. I'm just a self taught muppet. Never had a university education. It should be a walk over for you. Me, well I'm simple minded and stupid, just above mud really. Go on teach me a lesson. :-)

[LAOLONG]

Socialism work in groups of few people.as the amount of people is growing, socialism doesn't function.

[Karl]

Slightly patronising tone I see.

 

I'm replying in the same manner that's all. I don't mean to patronise, but shouldn't we be here to bottom things, to find out the truth, what is real. Isn't that our cause and method. We can argue on the surface, win points, but none of that will help is uncover what is.

[Brian]

Wot?

When Og swapped one of his pointy sticks for two of Ugg's hand-caught fish, that was "trade" and both of them were happy with the deal.

 

When Pfft established a centralized stick inspection agency and implemented fish-catching regulations, both of which required Og and Ugg to remit part of their personal energy to Pfft, they laughed at him. When he hired a couple of Cro-Magnon's to threaten to pelt them with rocks if they failed to comply, the first government was established.

[Karl]

Socialism work in groups of few people.as the amount of people is growing, socialism doesn't function.

 

I would agree with that. There is also no reason why, in a free society that socialist societies and groupings should exist happily and side by side with everyone else. We have cooperatives and communes and they would be most welcome as long as they don't go forcing their ideology onto others.

[Karl]

If anyone would care to watch the second video I posted:

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/38911-socialism-does-work/?p=636111

 

will discover that socialism does not = the government does everything.

 

Socialism is the idea that the goal of political organisation is social good for all and should be compared with the Adam Smith idea that the selfish pursuit of the individual is the key to general happiness.

 

i.e. with the UK NHS health care because of cost centre provisioning and so the state is actually being the capitalist BUT the aim to create a healthy population is socialist because it is not geared to meeting individual demand but the health of all.

 

Is that your definition of socialism : the idea that the goal of political organisation is social good for all

 

LOL that's most certainly begging the question: what you are saying in essence is socialism is socialism. I can agree that this is true but can you define socialism without resorting to petitio principii.

[Brian]

Socialism work in groups of few people.as the amount of people is growing, socialism doesn't function.

I would suggest that this is true for any form of government. This is why I advocate that governments be as small and as localized as possible, and be constantly re-evaluated for opportunities to make them smaller and more local.

[Apech]

When Og swapped one of his pointy sticks for two of Ugg's hand-caught fish, that was "trade" and both of them were happy with the deal.

 

When Pfft established a centralized stick inspection agency and implemented fish-catching regulations, both of which required Og and Ugg to remit part of their personal energy to Pfft, they laughed at him. When he hired a couple of Cro-Magnon's to threaten to pelt them with rocks if they failed to comply, the first government was established.

 

 

Are you suggesting something like this actually happened?  Or are you just making up something which backs up your view?  I would suggest if you want to base theory on actuality then you need to show that for instance early man, in hunter-gatherer groups actually behaved in this way.  One thing we do know from archeology is that there was a high level of cooperation and trade between far flung places in these early communities but I would suggest that they operated very differently from any back projected anachronistic economic theory might imagine.

[Brian]

If anyone would care to watch the second video I posted:

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/38911-socialism-does-work/?p=636111

 

will discover that socialism does not = the government does everything.

 

Socialism is the idea that the goal of political organisation is social good for all and should be compared with the Adam Smith idea that the selfish pursuit of the individual is the key to general happiness.

 

i.e. with the UK NHS health care because of cost centre provisioning and so the state is actually being the capitalist BUT the aim to create a healthy population is socialist because it is not geared to meeting individual demand but the health of all.

The aim of a strong eugenics program is to create a healthy population, too -- by simply eliminating the unproductive members. Unfortunately, history shows a disturbing link between the advocates of these two ideologies. Those who believe they can manipulate society for its own good seem too often to decide the end justifies the means -- well, too often for my comfort, anyhow.