Socialism does work

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Karl]

For Karl or anyone interested, linked here are English translations of Goebbels speeches which is a way to understand how propaganda operates .Of course there are myriad examples, but in one speech he discusses the importance of propaganda. Very sinister to say the least. I am providing this link so that the underpinnings of authoritarian manipulation can be studied.

 

http://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/goebmain.htm

 

How about a nice comparison of German and Russia propaganda posters

http://www.rferl.org/media/photogallery/24934238.html

 

 

oops look, identical except for the military uniform and the cartoon cut out leader. So, very sinister, both of them.

[Karl]

I'm not so sure, regarding the common human animal...

 

You don't think we can choose how we act ? Or that you are superior to simpletons and such like and this is only resident in such glorious people as yourself ? Careful, your narcissism is showing.

[ralis]

Your repeated ad hominems really don't flatter you. It would seem likely that we all 'think' so what is your point ?

 

Ad hominems? I am talking about critical analysis as opposed to everyday thinking. There is a vast difference!

[ralis]

How about a nice comparison of German and Russia propaganda posters http://www.rferl.org/media/photogallery/24934238.html oops look, identical except for the military uniform and the cartoon cut out leader. So, very sinister, both of them.

 

You missed my point entirely.

[Karl]

Ad hominems? I am talking about critical analysis as opposed to everyday thinking. There is a vast difference!

 

Are you still implying that I am unable to apply critical analysis ? :-)

[Brian]

Sorry as with Karl you have no clue about what is socialism or fascism for that matter. You are locked in an American mindset. Sorry but that's it. You are welcome to it of course. You can't say I haven't tried.

Honestly, Apech, I think I do understand the textbook, utopian vision of pure socialism. It is expressed pretty plainly by the World Socialist Movement:

Declaration of Principles

 

The Companion Parties of the World Socialist Movement hold

1) That society as at present constituted is based upon the ownership of the means of living (i.e., land, factories, railways, etc.) by the capitalist or master class, and the consequent enslavement of the working class, by whose labor alone wealth is produced.

2) That in society, therefore, there is an antagonism of interests, manifesting itself as a class struggle between those who possess but do not produce and those who produce but do not possess.

3) That this antagonism can be abolished only by the emancipation of the working class from the domination of the master class, by the conversion into the common property of society of the means of production and distribution, and their democratic control by the whole people.

4) That as in the order of social evolution the working class is the last class to achieve its freedom, the emancipation of the working class will involve the emancipation of all mankind, without distinction of race or sex.

5) That this emancipation must be the work of the working class itself.

6) That as the machinery of government, including the armed forces of the nation, exists only to conserve the monopoly by the capitalist class of the wealth taken from the workers, the working class must organize consciously and politically for the conquest of the powers of government, national and local, in order that this machinery, including these forces, may be converted from an instrument of oppression into the agent of emancipation and the overthrow of privilege, aristocratic and plutocratic.

7) That as all political parties are but the expression of class interests, and as the interest of the working class is diametrically opposed to the interests of all sections of the the master class, the party seeking working class emancipation must be hostile to every other party.

8) The Companion Parties of the World Socialist Movement, therefore, enter the field of political action determined to wage war against all other political parties, whether alleged labor or avowedly capitalist, and call upon the members of the working class of each country to muster under its banner to the end that a speedy termination may be wrought to the system which deprives them of the fruits of their labor, and that poverty may give place to comfort, privilege to equality, and slavery to freedom.

 

http://www.worldsocialism.org/english/object-and-declaration-principles

 

I understand the contention that previous attempts at establishing a socialist society have failed and therefore shouldn't be considered actual socialist societies, thereby leaving not one single successful example to point to as "the way it will work."

 

I understand that it cannot come about via reform but only by force, by revolution, and that this revolution must be a simultaneous global revolution.

 

I understand that all of the "progressive" steps towards "socialism" which the socialists generally point to as evidence of the positive aspects of socialism are therefore not socialism and can therefore be discounted and relabeled when they collapse.

 

Socialism, as described by socialists, sounds wonderful. I mean, who wouldn't be in favor a society in which poverty cannot possibly exist?

 

The difference between you and I in this regard, however, is that I also see some fundamental problems.

 

For instance, socialism can only come about by a forceful worldwide revolution in which every single opposing party must be destroyed. Sounds like a global night of the long knives to me. If even one shred of any other form of society is allowed to remain, the peaceful socialists would be easy prey. Of course, in the same e-breath, the socialist manifestos say that "the vast majority must consciously decide that they want socialism and that they are prepared to work in socialist society." (http://www.worldsocialism.org/english/frequently-asked-questions-faq-about-socialism-and-world-socialist-movement)

 

As another instance, the official "party line" is that "(p)eople will have to work, but it will be voluntary." (ibid) Not sure how work can simultaneously be mandatory yet voluntary but let's let that one go for the moment. The party line continues to explain that people will want to work in unpleasant jobs because they will "gain respect" for doing so.

 

What will these workers be voluntarily doing? Why, everything that is necessary, of course! And nothing that is not necessary. "Everything not forbidden is compulsory" is known as Gell-Mann's Totalitarian Principle in the realm of quantum mechanics but it seems to fit nicely in socialism, too. So the Global Collective (my caps) will decide what is necessary and "the people" will then voluntarily line up to produce that necessary stuff but will not waste any of the Collective's resources on anything not necessary. Piano concertos? I think you can color them gone. Poetry? Literature? Non-utilitarian structures? Sounds like a pretty bleak world to me.

 

Of course, these decisions which will need to be made... How exactly is that going to work? So the first step is to blow up every existing form of societal management and then the next step is to have global elections -- not to pick new leaders or anything but to immediately start deciding everything -- every fricking thing -- in totally fair and uncorrupted democratic elections. Ummm... Run by whom? Who decides what goes on the ballots? Who gets to count the ballots? Seems incorruptible to me...

 

And what of that miniscule minority of people who don't like the new system? Well, the part line explains that, too. "Those who disagree will be treated like anyone else." Unless society decides they are "damaging society", in which case society will decide what to do about this existential threat. No worries, though -- even though the party line clearly states that it has no crystal ball and cannot predict any choices the future socialistic utopians will make, one can rest assured that "those methods will be more humane and less dictated by blanket policies than the methods used today." How do we know this is true? Why, because they said so!

 

Same applies to the actual administration of this non-government government. How will it work? Not a clue, except that it will be totally democratic and therefore presumably immune to corruption. The official party line says "(a)s the socialist majority grows, when socialism is within the grasp of the working class, then will be the proper time for making such important decisions." Leibniz may have theorized about "the best of all possible worlds" but consider me a bit more Panglossian.

 

And what about the concerns that "human nature" will prevent this whole thing from working? No problem! You see, there really is no such thing as human nature. Turns out that all the "human nature" problems in human existence, dating back to the beginning of time, apparently, stem not from humans themselves but from the lack of socialism. No, really!

 

Lest anyone think for a second that there might be any lack of critical thinking skills in any of this socialist planning, let me point out that Marx himself applauded the outbreak of US Civil War and proclaimed that the Confederacy's secession was the beginning of the great global socialist revolution. Not sure why it isn't over yet but perhaps 154 years hasn't been quite long enough.

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Karl]

You missed my point entirely.

 

Which was what exactly? That the Nazi party used propaganda ? We knew that already. Our propaganda was busy exposing their propaganda. We won the war so we get to write about their propaganda machinery as if we didn't have any. However, the Russians also won the war and so we don't have quite as much to write about them.

 

All the learned professors and academics used to make their pilgrimages to the USSR and come back saturated with the ideology. They thought it was the greatest thing in human social engineering, behaviour and efficiency. They couldn't wait to promote that message in the West. They even accepted the millions of murdered and imprisoned Russians as a worthwhile price to pay for such wonders.

 

One by one they now deny they believed in it at all. A failed experiment creating hell on earth for millions upon millions who suffered terrible deprivation, hunger, starvation, torture, death, mutilation, forced marches, forced labour, overcrowding, disease and poverty. All the while the West with its relatively free capitalism was leaping ahead further and further whilst the soviets stagnated and suffered.

 

You support that do you ?

[Karl]

Honestly, Apech, I think I do understand the textbook, utopian vision of pure socialism. It is expressed pretty plainly by the World Socialist Movement:

Declaration of Principles

The Companion Parties of the World Socialist Movement hold

1) That society as at present constituted is based upon the ownership of the means of living (i.e., land, factories, railways, etc.) by the capitalist or master class, and the consequent enslavement of the working class, by whose labor alone wealth is produced.

2) That in society, therefore, there is an antagonism of interests, manifesting itself as a class struggle between those who possess but do not produce and those who produce but do not possess.

3) That this antagonism can be abolished only by the emancipation of the working class from the domination of the master class, by the conversion into the common property of society of the means of production and distribution, and their democratic control by the whole people.

4) That as in the order of social evolution the working class is the last class to achieve its freedom, the emancipation of the working class will involve the emancipation of all mankind, without distinction of race or sex.

5) That this emancipation must be the work of the working class itself.

6) That as the machinery of government, including the armed forces of the nation, exists only to conserve the monopoly by the capitalist class of the wealth taken from the workers, the working class must organize consciously and politically for the conquest of the powers of government, national and local, in order that this machinery, including these forces, may be converted from an instrument of oppression into the agent of emancipation and the overthrow of privilege, aristocratic and plutocratic.

7) That as all political parties are but the expression of class interests, and as the interest of the working class is diametrically opposed to the interests of all sections of the the master class, the party seeking working class emancipation must be hostile to every other party.

8) The Companion Parties of the World Socialist Movement, therefore, enter the field of political action determined to wage war against all other political parties, whether alleged labor or avowedly capitalist, and call upon the members of the working class of each country to muster under its banner to the end that a speedy termination may be wrought to the system which deprives them of the fruits of their labor, and that poverty may give place to comfort, privilege to equality, and slavery to freedom.http://www.worldsocialism.org/english/object-and-declaration-principles]http://www.worldsocialism.org/english/object-and-declaration-principles[/url]

I understand the contention that previous attempts at establishing a socialist society have failed and therefore shouldn't be considered actual socialist societies, thereby leaving not one single successful example to point to as "the way it will work."

I understand that it cannot come about via reform but only by force, by revolution, and that this revolution must be a simultaneous global revolution.

I understand that all of the "progressive" steps towards "socialism" which the socialists generally point to as evidence of the positive aspects of socialism are therefore not socialism and can therefore be discounted and relabeled when they collapse.

Socialism, as described by socialists, sounds wonderful. I mean, who wouldn't be in favor a society in which poverty cannot possibly exist?

There difference, however, is that I also see some fundamental problems.

For instance, socialism can only come about by a forceful worldwide revolution in which every single opposing party must be destroyed. Sounds like a global night of the long knives to me. If even one shred of any other form of society is allowed to remain, the peaceful socialists would be easy prey. Of course, in the same e-breath, the socialist manifestos say that "the vast majority must consciously decide that they want socialism and that they are prepared to work in socialist society." (http://www.worldsocialism.org/english/frequently-asked-questions-faq-about-socialism-and-world-socialist-movement]http://www.worldsocialism.org/english/frequently-asked-questions-faq-about-socialism-and-world-socialist-movement[/url])

As another instance, the official "party line" is that "(p)eople will have to work, but it will be voluntary." (ibid) Not sure how work can simultaneously be mandatory yet voluntary but let's let that one go for the moment. The party line continues to explain that people will want to work in unpleasant jobs because they will "gain respect" for doing so.

What will these workers be voluntarily doing? Why, everything that is necessary, of course! And nothing that is not necessary. "Everything not forbidden is compulsory" is known as Gell-Mann's Totalitarian Principle in the realm of quantum mechanics but it seems to fit nicely in socialism, too. So the Global Collective (my caps) will decide what is necessary and "the people" will then voluntarily line up to produce that necessary stuff but will not waste any of the Collective's resources on anything not necessary. Piano concertos? I think you can color them gone. Poetry? Literature? Non-utilitarian structures? Sounds like a pretty bleak world to me.

Of course, these decisions which will need to be made... How exactly is that going to work? So the first step is to blow up every existing form of societal management and then the next step is to have global elections -- not to pick new leaders or anything but to immediately start deciding everything -- every fricking thing -- in totally fair and uncorrupted democratic elections. Ummm... Run by whom? Who decides what goes on the ballots? Who gets to count the ballots? Seems incorruptible to me...

And what of that miniscule minority of people who don't like the new system? Well, the part line explains that, too. "Those who disagree will be treated like anyone else." Unless society decides they are "damaging society", in which case society will decide what to do about this existential threat. No worries, though -- even though the party line clearly states that it has no crystal ball and cannot predict any choices the future socialistic utopians will make, one can rest assured that "those methods will be more humane and less dictated by blanket policies than the methods used today."

Same applies to the actual administration of this non-government government. How will it work? Not a clue, except that it will be totally democratic and therefore presumably immune to corruption. The official party line says "(a)s the socialist majority grows, when socialism is within the grasp of the working class, then will be the proper time for making such important decisions." Leibniz may have theorized about "the best of all possible worlds" but consider me a bit more Panglossian.

And what about the concerns that "human nature" will prevent this whole thing from working? No problem! You see, there really is no such thing as human nature. Turns out that all the "human nature" problems in human existence, dating back to the beginning of time, apparently, stem not from humans themselves but from the lack of socialism. No, really!

Lest anyone think for a second that there might be any lack of critical thinking skills in any of this socialist planning, let me point out that Marx himself applauded the outbreak of US Civil War and proclaimed that the Confederacy's secession was the beginning of the great global socialist revolution. Not sure why it isn't over yet but perhaps 154 years hasn't been quite long enough.

And let's not forget that Marx said that capitalism was doomed to failure and the eventual move to communism. In other words there is no need to do anything at all, it will happen all by itself. Yet the socialists are intending to do by force what was intended to be by natural evolution.

 

Same as religion. God will strike you down, but we will get to you first.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Karl

[ralis]

Which was what exactly? That the Nazi party used propaganda ? We knew that already. Our propaganda was busy exposing their propaganda. We won the war so we get to write about their propaganda machinery as if we didn't have any. However, the Russians also won the war and so we don't have quite as much to write about them. All the learned professors and academics used to make their pilgrimages to the USSR and come back saturated with the ideology. They thought it was the greatest thing in human social engineering, behaviour and efficiency. They couldn't wait to promote that message in the West. They even accepted the millions of murdered and imprisoned Russians as a worthwhile price to pay for such wonders. One by one they now deny they believed in it at all. A failed experiment creating hell on earth for millions upon millions who suffered terrible deprivation, hunger, starvation, torture, death, mutilation, forced marches, forced labour, overcrowding, disease and poverty. All the while the West with its relatively free capitalism was leaping ahead further and further whilst the soviets stagnated and suffered. You support that do you ?

 

 

All the learned professors without exception? That is hardly true. No, I don't support torture and enslavement of other humans

[zerostao]

@Brian,

 

Are you going to weigh in on this situation from a few posts ago? To misrepresent what I wrote is wrong.

 

http://thedaobums.com/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=636248

it happens on this forum. i quit posting in the taoist section becoz of this very reason, the same 1 -3 members would paraphrase what i posted into something with an entirely different, often contradictory meaning. or they would claim i said something another member had said. it is frustrating, so i quit posting in that section altogether

edit > spacing

edit to add, i dont think brian was a mod during my issues. 

Edited July 20, 2015 by zerostao

[thelerner]

Healthcare and education, the two great golden calfs of politicians.

 

The National health Service in the UK is, believe, the third largest employer in the world after the Chinese Red Army and the Indian Railway Service. It has become so big and unwieldy that it is bordering on being unmanageable. As may be expected in any socialist engineered enterprise it is top heavy with bureaucrats, to criticisize the NHS or cut its funding has become a means to political suicide.

I don't know.  I'd like to see clear statistics and honest comparisons before deciding whats good and whats bad. 

 

I think people tend to confuse socialism with communism, and for good reason, often they're used interchangeably. 

 

Frankly I like a wider deeper social net of public protections, but central planning tends to screw things; good intentions causing nasty unintended consequences.  Socialism (as seen in Western Europe) has its good points, but without intelligent oversight, allowing the people to vote themselves bread circus and benefits ends up in bankruptcy.

 

Speaking of false alternatives: while I agree with some of Karl's sentiments, bringing up Russia, Venezuela, and North Korea are red herrings because most of the people here are describing European style socialism, not communist dictatorship.   I think the U.S can learn some things from Europe, though its tricky to avoid some of the pit falls,  they've fallen into. 

 

I'm an independent who leans Democratic.  I'm happiest with a mixed government and like to see on balance 2 or 3 Democratic leaning elections to each Republican one.  But eventual Republican leads are essential cause every system needs an occasional enema and shot of fiscal responsibility.   It works best when the conflict between the two result in greater pragmatism versus the mindless automatic opposition we have today. 

[Brian]

And let's not forget that Marx said that capitalism was doomed to failure and the eventual move to communism. In other words there is no need to do anything at all, it will happen all by itself. Yet the socialists are intending to do by force what was intended to be by natural evolution.

 

Same as religion. God will strike you down, but we will get to you first.

You noticed that, too?

 

Yeah, I could go on but there is, as has been pointed out, little point in it. One guy says, "this is the perfect solution!" to which another guy says, "Hmmm... I've studied this and I see some real problems" to which the first guy says "you are clearly either stupid or brainwashed."

 

OK, label me both stupid and brainwashed but I ain't buying it.

[Brian]

<snip> 

I think people tend to confuse socialism with communism, and for good reason, often they're used interchangeably. 

 <snip>

Perhaps because Marx said they were the same thing?

 

<shrug>

[Apech]

@Brian ...FFS you are depressing me.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Apech

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Brian]

Will all that I've said, let me make it clear that I have no problem with the concept of socialism and, if it has to be a worldwide movement to work, I'm good with that, too! Pick out any other world you'd like to experiment on and have at it!

 

 

My family happens to live on this one, though, so I'll resist.

[ralis]

I agree with thelerner in that there is a major confusion with European style socialism and the failed communist form which is not socialist, but totalitarian.

[Apech]

It's ok I'm going outside to shoot myself so no need to troll any more.

[Brian]

Please note that there is a fundamental difference between not understanding something and not wanting something.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/10/25/european-socialism-why-america-doesnt-want-it/

 

Please also note that the idea of "European socialism" or "European-style socialism" is strictly ruled out by the foundational principles of socialism itself. The socialists themselves say socialism cannot come about via progressive reform or in a piecemeal fashion.

[Brian]

It's ok I'm going outside to shoot myself so no need to troll any more.

Heavens, no! Keep practicing.

 

Heck! If ya'll can't convince a bunch of Dao Bums, you've got a long row to hoe.

[Apech]

Bang!

[Aithrobates]

Socialism doest not work because people lose their time talking about it.

 

Organize.

[Karl]

All the learned professors without exception? That is hardly true. No, I don't support torture and enslavement of other humans

 

Did I say 'all' as in everyone. I meant all that went if that clarifies that for you.

 

I'm glad you don't support torture and enslavement of other humans. What about theft and kidnapping ?