Socialism does work

[dust]

there is always irony. america is the luminescent beacon shining forth light to the rest of the world. pretty much has been since it's birth. seriously or playfully , it is what it is.

 

Sure, the USA sends its light out all over the place.

 

Generally in the form of missiles, muzzle flare, and McDonald's signs.

[zerostao]

some of what you say makes sense karl. it is all speculative in any rate. if a big collapse occurs i am glad to be where i am.

not much will change here. 

this: "what job you do."  kinda went way over my head, whoosh. i'm a bum. i think maybe i just trolled you becoz you spoke ill of jung on another thread.   no worries. and maybe it was easy being a bum in america and living a rich lifestyle in the 20th century, its still easy in the 21st, in fact in many ways it's even easier. much cheaper products flooding in from everywhere else.

keep up the good work ya'll

in the meanwhile i will wonder if i ever meet up at some random poker table with ralis

this is my poker face>>

[ralis]

That fight has been going on from the beginning.  There will always be someone wanting to make a profit from what Nature has given to all of us.  Conservation and protectionism are pretty strong in the USA right now so any buying up of public lands by corporate greed should be very limited for a while.

 

 

There are private corporate interests that are opening up uranium mining in close proximity to the Grand Canyon National Park. This is an outrage to the native people living there and should be condemned by all. Corporations have far too much power and money!

 

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2015/uranium-mining-04-08-2015.html

[ralis]

some of what you say makes sense karl. it is all speculative in any rate. if a big collapse occurs i am glad to be where i am.

not much will change here. 

this: "what job you do."  kinda went way over my head, whoosh. i'm a bum. i think maybe i just trolled you becoz you spoke ill of jung on another thread.   no worries. and maybe it was easy being a bum in america and living a rich lifestyle in the 20th century, its still easy in the 21st, in fact in many ways it's even easier. much cheaper products flooding in from everywhere else.

keep up the good work ya'll

in the meanwhile i will wonder if i ever meet up at some random poker table with ralis

this is my poker face>>

 

 

Are you a poker player? There are certain poker rooms in Vegas where the players are so bad and which makes for easy pickings. 

[Karl]

some of what you say makes sense karl. it is all speculative in any rate. if a big collapse occurs i am glad to be where i am.

not much will change here. 

this: "what job you do."  kinda went way over my head, whoosh. i'm a bum. i think maybe i just trolled you becoz you spoke ill of jung on another thread.   no worries. and maybe it was easy being a bum in america and living a rich lifestyle in the 20th century, its still easy in the 21st, in fact in many ways it's even easier. much cheaper products flooding in from everywhere else.

keep up the good work ya'll

in the meanwhile i will wonder if i ever meet up at some random poker table with ralis

this is my poker face>>

 

It's headed that way, possibly one more go around but the commodities market has been dragging its arse since the beginning of the year. Europe with Greece in a serious state-who could have conceived a western country could go that way so fast. I saw a report of older men who had all but given up, in floods of tears on the street. Medical care is drying up and food shortages have started.

 

Ah ya big troll. Well, no one likes what I say so I'm used to it :-) I'm known for hard truths, people don't always appreciate it, but look at Greece-if they had known, if someone had said, they would have been like Noah before the flood, laughed out of town. Poor, proud Greeks.

 

I'm a bum too :-) just finished painting the railings outside my house, so I don't feel particularly bum like. On a positive note I collected 322 ants, 80 green fly, 3 spiders. The bad news is the little buggers snuck into my t shirt and trousers.

[zerostao]

Are you a poker player? There are certain poker rooms in Vegas where the players are so bad and which makes for easy pickings. 

there are bad players everywhere.i began playing when i was 4 or 5 for pennies. but hey a nickel was a snickers, a dime a mountain dew in a glass bottle>>the gateway drug for sure. a quarter i could go see a new release movie in an air conditioned theatre. also a nickel bought a cherry bomb and free complimentary box of matches. cigarettes were cheap too.

[zerostao]

greeks? i like iceland's approach.

you are quite the collector, karl, 

my advice is quit reading plato, aristotle and rand. keep painting, writing, trolling,

aspire to bum life. let go of your notion of "truth" 

and try to exercise your subjective thought process.

get out of your box. it's fun out here

Edited July 23, 2015 by zerostao

[Karl]

greeks? i like iceland's approach.

you are quite the collector, karl, 

my advice is quit reading plato, aristotle and rand. keep painting, writing, trolling,

aspire to bum life. let go of your notion of "truth" 

and try to exercise your subjective thought process.

get out of your box. it's fun out here

 

My subjective gets quite sufficient abuse thank you. It was the objective I struggled with. I'm getting out this weekend-got a day pass-nice romp around the Yorkshire Dales leading a group of wanton lunatics trying to avoid the gamekeepers of our beloved, but disintegrating highways.

 

Then it's curry night, couple of beers and music. My tastes in the literary world fall to bits in the musical one. It's metal time :-)

[ralis]

greeks? i like iceland's approach.

you are quite the collector, karl, 

my advice is quit reading plato, aristotle and rand. keep painting, writing, trolling,

aspire to bum life. let go of your notion of "truth" 

and try to exercise your subjective thought process.

get out of your box. it's fun out here

 

 

There is a lot of Ayn Rand in his narrative. She was nothing but a hack!

[ralis]

My subjective gets quite sufficient abuse thank you. It was the objective I struggled with. I'm getting out this weekend-got a day pass-nice romp around the Yorkshire Dales leading a group of wanton lunatics trying to avoid the gamekeepers of our beloved, but disintegrating highways. Then it's curry night, couple of beers and music. My tastes in the literary world fall to bits in the musical one. It's metal time :-)

 

Day pass? Are you in an institution?

[Karl]

There is a lot of Ayn Rand in his narrative. She was nothing but a hack!

 

She had some quirky ideas that were economically bankrupt. The whole Galts Gulch thing was a mistake. However I don't see her as a Hack, just a bit cultish in places. Wound Mssrs Rothbard and Mises up to frothing point.

[Karl]

Are you in an institution?

 

 

...of marriage

[Apech]

Well, I had reason to drive to a place called Ulme this morning - for a funeral as it happens - but is wasn't someone I knew - a cousin of my friend.  Anyway this Ulme is in a different council area to where I live and is run by the Communist party.  yes, here they still have a fairly thriving CP.  It runs some of the more successful local authority areas.  Where I live is run (if you can call it that) by the Partido Socialista - which proves, if you were still in any doubt that just putting 'socialist' in your name doesn't make you a socialist (cp. our dear Mr. Hitler).

 

The hallmark of a Partido Socialista administration is that the council leaders drive round in expensive black shiny cars, there are dodgy land deals, the contracts go the the mayor's uncle's brother's school chum (or similar) and ancient archeological sites are demolished to build concrete brutalist shopping centres.

 

The hall mark of a Communist administration is - the sanitation works, the water supply is good, the streets are clean and well lit, the school buildings are new, the garbage is collected on time, local produce and commodities are sold at cost through co-operatve shops and the 'leaders' spend a lot of time making sure the old, frail and so on are ok.

 

The Communists are linked here to the Green party so there is also a local Eco-Parque with organic veggies and recycling.

 

In the national elections they get about 7-8% of the vote so have very few delegates.  However the national leader is solid - and the kind of guy you wouldn't hesitate to ask to look after your valuables - unlike the rest of the lying smoothies which inhabit the national assembly.

 

It made me think about the roots of Marxism.  Of people with very little grouping together to improve things a little for themselves and family.  Of people thinking about each other, rather than themselves for one.  So far from the totalitarian Soviet Communism of Stalin et al as to unrecognisable.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Apech

[Chang]

Moderation Message

I previously posted a Mod Message in this thread to the effect that it should be possible to discuss a subject without retort to the use of insults.

Unfortunately this has not proved possible and as a result of post 411 ZOOM has been suspended for three days whilst the Mod Team discuss his behaviour.

[Apech]

You should have suspended him for bad spelling - if I had a supply of sodium hydroxide I'd be a lyer too.

[Brian]

Banjo players don't sing.  (Well, rarely.)

<sigh>

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/38933-when-the-banjo-player-sings/

[Karl]

Well, I had reason to drive to a place called Ulme this morning - for a funeral as it happens - but is wasn't someone I knew - a cousin of my friend.  Anyway this Ulme is in a different council area to where I live and is run by the Communist party.  yes, here they still have a fairly thriving CP.  It runs some of the more successful local authority areas.  Where I live is run (if you can call it that) by the Partido Socialista - which proves, if you were still in any doubt that just putting 'socialist' in your name doesn't make you a socialist (cp. our dear Mr. Hitler).

 

The hallmark of a Partido Socialista administration is that the council leaders drive round in expensive black shiny cars, there are dodgy land deals, the contracts go the the mayor's uncle's brother's school chum (or similar) and ancient archeological sites are demolished to build concrete brutalist shopping centres.

 

The hall mark of a Communist administration is - the sanitation works, the water supply is good, the streets are clean and well lit, the school buildings are new, the garbage is collected on time, local produce and commodities are sold at cost through co-operatve shops and the 'leaders' spend a lot of time making sure the old, frail and so on are ok.

 

The Communists are linked here to the Green party so there is also a local Eco-Parque with organic veggies and recycling.

 

In the national elections they get about 7-8% of the vote so have very few delegates.  However the national leader is solid - and the kind of guy you wouldn't hesitate to ask to look after your valuables - unlike the rest of the lying smoothies which inhabit the national assembly.

 

It made me think about the roots of Marxism.  Of people with very little grouping together to improve things a little for themselves and family.  Of people thinking about each other, rather than themselves for one.  So far from the totalitarian Soviet Communism of Stalin et al as to unrecognisable.

 

This is your version of 'nice' communism ? :-)

 

Every motive is selfish. Even charitable motives are selfish. You do something in expectation of a return on investment. It might be a smile from someone, a feeling you are doing a good thing which gives satisfaction, it might be to enhance the community you live in in order for everyone to be cheerful because it gladdens your heart to see people cheerful.

 

None of that is communistic, it's simply man acting To dispel some unease about his present condition.

 

Marxism was specific and for a specific purpose. It was to take the means of production out of the hands of the owners. At this point it would be worth reading Marx communist manifesto if you haven't already. It's then easier to discuss the fallacies in his economic model-primarily it was a product of the time and circumstances. He had a kooky theory of value-which would take too long to discuss here. The main issue was that to create the system he envisaged would require the use of force and centralised Government. It was always going to be totalitarian in character and collectivist in nature.

 

 

 

 

 

[Apech]

This is your version of 'nice' communism ? :-) Every motive is selfish. Even charitable motives are selfish. You do something in expectation of a return on investment. It might be a smile from someone, a feeling you are doing a good thing which gives satisfaction, it might be to enhance the community you live in in order for everyone to be cheerful because it gladdens your heart to see people cheerful. None of that is communistic, it's simply man acting To dispel some unease about his present condition. Marxism was specific and for a specific purpose. It was to take the means of production out of the hands of the owners. At this point it would be worth reading Marx communist manifesto if you haven't already. It's then easier to discuss the fallacies in his economic model-primarily it was a product of the time and circumstances. He had a kooky theory of value-which would take too long to discuss here. The main issue was that to create the system he envisaged would require the use of force and centralised Government. It was always going to be totalitarian in character and collectivist in nature.

 

 

It's not 'mine' ... it exists ... and it is unselfish to put others before yourself - by very definition.

 

I have no wish to change your mind about anything - so if you want to cling to your views be my guest.

[Karl]

It's not 'mine' ... it exists ... and it is unselfish to put others before yourself - by very definition.

 

I have no wish to change your mind about anything - so if you want to cling to your views be my guest.

 

To put others before self ? Really ? How would you begin to go about it ?

You would be unable to act at all. How could you even begin to know what was needed ? Even breathing might deprive another of air at some point. If you ate food it might leave another hungry. If you drank then another might be thirsty.

 

 

[Apech]

To put others before self ? Really ? How would you begin to go about it ? You would be unable to act at all. How could you even begin to know what was needed ? Even breathing might deprive another of air at some point. If you ate food it might leave another hungry. If you drank then another might be thirsty.

 

 

Give it some more thought you'll work it out.  Might take a while of course

[Karl]

Give it some more thought you'll work it out.  Might take a while of course

 

Your dead and you are writing this from beyond the grave, but hang on. What if someone is deprived of those electrons, or how about if you are offending me and making me miserable.

 

Shouldn't you be putting me first. Being your brothers keeper and all that. You seem very selfish to me- but then I think that's a good thing. :-)

[Apech]

Your dead and you are writing this from beyond the grave, but hang on. What if someone is deprived of those electrons, or how about if you are offending me and making me miserable. Shouldn't you be putting me first. Being your brothers keeper and all that. You seem very selfish to me- but then I think that's a good thing. :-)

 

 

You are thinking too much.  It'll make you restless and distracted.

[Karl]

You are thinking too much.  It'll make you restless and distracted.

 

I'm already restless and distracted, but the railings are painted and the kettles on so its all good.

 

I like you Apech, you will make a fine libertarian someday :-) your selfishness grows daily.

[dust]

Hmm. The thing that can be said to have a 'self' must be inherently 'selfish' -- by definition...

 

Although there would seem to be a difference between a self that pleases itself without regard for any other self, and a self that pleases itself through pleasing others (aka "putting others first"). In both cases, without doubt the self is trying to gratify itself, and though it may not believe so, it must always either put its own needs first or die.

 

I would change the language a little, just to make it somewhat clearer / prevent circular arguments:

 

A self can be compassionate, or it can be indifferent to the needs and wishes of others.

 

Clearly (to me) at least in theory if people are honest about their 'selfish' needs and able to be compassionate, more people will benefit (be happier / harmed less) than if people lie about the fact that they must be selfish and/or are completely indifferent to the needs and wishes of others.

[Marblehead]

...of marriage

And that's why your subjective opinions don't matter.  You are always wrong.