Socialism does work

[zerostao]

Agreed, but why would you believe the rhetoric that neofeudalism by any name is "for the welfare of all?"

becoz, i look at feudalism as what is being practiced by the corporate oligarchy of the multi national corporations in collusion with the banksters and current politicians all espousing capitalism in the so called free trade model. the only "welfare" going on is this arrangement is provided to the multinational corps thru the export-import bank. 

[Brian]

 

becoz, i look at feudalism as what is being practiced by the corporate oligarchy of the multi national corporations in collusion with the banksters and current politicians all espousing capitalism in the so called free trade model. the only "welfare" going on is this arrangement is provided to the multinational corps thru the export-import bank.

If these corporatists called it macaroni, would you believe it was haute couture?

[Karl]

becoz, i look at feudalism as what is being practiced by the corporate oligarchy of the multi national corporations in collusion with the banksters and current politicians all espousing capitalism in the so called free trade model. the only "welfare" going on is this arrangement is provided to the multinational corps thru the export-import bank. 

 

Feudalism is very specific. What we have is crony capitalism-really the word capitalism should be omitted completely as its a collectivist model (but instead of the government regulating the businesses, it is the businesses using the Government to provide the specific type and quality of regulation necessary and to change laws and statutes appropriately to prevent interference by legal challenge ). In effect it's a new model. In days past the King or Queen would grant monopolies directly ( East India company is an example ) and this is a version of that style of politics.

 

I heard they have managed to shut down the ex-im bank ? I'm never sure these things are ever totally shut down, but yes it corporatist welfarism funded by the tax payer. Its probably worse than that because it provides subsidised goods to the country purchasing the U.S. Product. In effect the tax payer is handing their productive wealth in cash terms directly to foreign countries.

[Apech]

Feudalism is very specific. What we have is crony capitalism-really the word capitalism should be omitted completely as its a collectivist model (but instead of the government regulating the businesses, it is the businesses using the Government to provide the specific type and quality of regulation necessary and to change laws and statutes appropriately to prevent interference by legal challenge ). In effect it's a new model. In days past the King or Queen would grant monopolies directly ( East India company is an example ) and this is a version of that style of politics. I heard they have managed to shut down the ex-im bank ? I'm never sure these things are ever totally shut down, but yes it corporatist welfarism funded by the tax payer. Its probably worse than that because it provides subsidised goods to the country purchasing the U.S. Product. In effect the tax payer is handing their productive wealth in cash terms directly to foreign countries.

 

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/249233-senate-votes-to-revive-ex-im

[Karl]

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/249233-senate-votes-to-revive-ex-im

 

"We are one step closer to getting the tax payer to continue paying for our losses and boost our personal incomes" said one of the political elites. "It must be the perfect thing when you can start a company that has an unsaleable product and then get the tax payer to foot the bill and the bottom line. It also ensures that no politician is put out of work by ensuring a steady stream of funding for his campaign and a well paid place on the board when his career is over. Really, really pennies from heaven. Mana for the righteous" he added.

 

 

[Karl]

It's really working good:

 

 

http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2015/07/venezuelan-price-inflation-is-not-over.html

 

800% it's good right ? Inflation is good, the fed said so, so did the gubbermint so 800% must be the bloody jackpot. I wish I was living there with such a booming economy it must be fantastic. Don't you love socialism, it achieves things that even the Devil never dreamed of ?

 

I'm not laughing.

[Apech]

It's really working good: http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2015/07/venezuelan-price-inflation-is-not-over.html 800% it's good right ? Inflation is good, the fed said so, so did the gubbermint so 800% must be the bloody jackpot. I wish I was living there with such a booming economy it must be fantastic. Don't you love socialism, it achieves things that even the Devil never dreamed of ? I'm not laughing.

 

[kudos100]

Time to start a new thread I reckon.  (since any objective observer would agree that I won all the substantive points).

 

What next I wonder.

 

Is John Chang low level? Should get a similar response to this thread. 

[Apech]

Is John Chang low level? Should get a similar response to this thread. 

 

Oh no we've had enough of that subject

[kudos100]

Oh no we've had enough of that subject

 

I was only joking. Just amusing that a thread on socialism should reach over 500 replies on here.

 

Generally I try and stay away from politics, as the vast majority of politicians are as bad as each other, serving the elite, establishment and themselves and screwing everyone else. Doesn't matter a great deal which economic system is in place. 

 

Jeremy Corbyn is a breath of fresh air and seems like he is following in the footsteps of Tony Benn. He will never win or get the Labour party elected, but it is great to see someone who sticks to what they believe in and is not just telling people what they want to hear. 

Edited July 27, 2015 by kudos100

[Karl]

I was only joking. Just amusing that a thread on socialism should reach over 500 replies on here.

 

Generally I try and stay away from politics, as the vast majority of politicians are as bad as each other, serving the elite, establishment and themselves and screwing everyone else. Doesn't matter a great deal which economic system is in place. 

 

Jeremy Corbyn is a breath of fresh air and seems like he is following in the footsteps of Tony Benn. He will never win or get the Labour party elected, but it is great to see someone who sticks to what they believe in and is not just telling people what they want to hear. 

 

I believe Lenin stuck to his beliefs as did Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Chavez, Mao. It all went well.

[Marblehead]

It all went well.

"Well" is a matter of perspective.  Totally subjective.

[Karl]

"Well" is a matter of perspective.  Totally subjective.

 

I'm not sure it was a matter of subjectivity to the millions murdered in the purges.

[kudos100]

I believe Lenin stuck to his beliefs as did Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Chavez, Mao. It all went well. 

 

IMO getting into power and telling the truth/sticking to your beliefs are pretty much mutuality exclusive. Perhaps some of the current leaders started out with good intentions. Then they realise they have to bullshit and lie and go against their original beliefs to get anywhere in politics and become corrupt. 

 

Which is why the only politicians worth listening to are generally the one's who don't stand any chance of getting into power.

[ralis]

I believe Lenin stuck to his beliefs as did Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Chavez, Mao. It all went well.

 

 

What do you mean by "it all went well"? Are you supporting the atrocities of these butchers?

[Karl]

IMO getting into power and telling the truth/sticking to your beliefs are pretty much mutuality exclusive. Perhaps some of the current leaders started out with good intentions. Then they realise they have to bullshit and lie and go against their original beliefs to get anywhere in politics and become corrupt. 

 

Which is why the only politicians worth listening to are generally the one's who don't stand any chance of getting into power.

 

Men are fallible

Lenin was a man

Lenin was fallible.

 

Telling the truth and sticking to beliefs comes with an enormous element of fallible error. That's fine if it's only your own neck you are risking, but when it applies to 60 million people things get unpleasant if the error is sufficiently large.

 

Anyone extolling socialism need only look at history to know it is not just unviable it is positively destructive and violent. If you carry on carrying the red flag regardless of histories lessons I suggest you are either ignorant or a totalitarian tyrant in the making.

[Karl]

What do you mean by "it all went well"? Are you supporting the atrocities of these butchers?

 

Oh you ARE that Ralis ;-)

[kudos100]

Anyone extolling socialism need only look at history to know it is not just unviable it is positively destructive and violent. If you carry on carrying the red flag regardless of histories lessons I suggest you are either ignorant or a totalitarian tyrant in the making. 

 

Carry on carrying the red flag? Put down the crack pipe man.

 

I am not carrying any flag, from this thread it seems that you are the main flag bearer. 

 

My opinion is that ANY political/economic system is doomed to fail in the end due those who get into power being corrupted and serving the elite rather than the people. 

 

Capitalism, Socialism take your pick. 

[Karl]

Carry on carrying the red flag? Put down the crack pipe man.

 

I am not carrying any flag, from this thread it seems that you are the main flag bearer. 

 

My opinion is that ANY political/economic system is doomed to fail in the end due those who get into power being corrupted and serving the elite rather than the people. 

 

Capitalism, Socialism take your pick. 

 

Capitalism isn't a political system.

 

And yes, every political system will fail. However some political systems have proved themselves to offer more stability than others. Communism Corbyn style isn't one of those. Yet you seemed to support him ?

[kudos100]

Capitalism isn't a political system. And yes, every political system will fail. However some political systems have proved themselves to offer more stability than others. Communism Corbyn style isn't one of those. Yet you seemed to support him ?

 

No you are correct it is more of an economic system like socialism. 

 

 I find it interesting to try and take into account different points of view and try put myself in the other persons shoes. Give it a try you might find it helpful.  I was a staunch capitalist 15 years ago and my views have altered so I don't see things as black and white any more. 

 

Enjoy the rest of the debate/argument. 

[Karl]

No you are correct it is more of an economic system like socialism. 

 

 I find it interesting to try and take into account different points of view and try put myself in the other persons shoes. Give it a try you might find it helpful.  I was a staunch capitalist 15 years ago and my views have altered so I don't see things as black and white any more. 

 

Enjoy the rest of the debate/argument. 

 

Socialism has its roots in the name 'social'. Capital has its routes in its name 'capital'. Socialism is therefore a social ideology in which traditional economics does not play a part. Indeed the idea was not to pay workers at all. Everyone works for the collective whole.

 

Capitalism - though often touted as a political ideology is simply the deferred consumption of production and its availability to increase productivity/reduce risk as a result.

 

Were you a staunch capitalist ? You were a staunch supporter of deferred consumption then ? Now you don't know and are happy to have no opinion what so ever, except when you have an opinion, but not strong enough to be an opinion in case you have to argue it ?

 

Fantastic. I used to be indecisive but now...I just don't know ;-)

 

 

[ralis]

Oh you ARE that Ralis ;-)

 

I was asking a question regarding that statement.

[zerostao]

If these corporatists called it macaroni, would you believe it was haute couture?

agreed.

how is crony capitalism any different than feudalism?

on both---it is an elite group of barons (or macaronis) benefiting receiving 90% of the capital while everyone else is sent to serfdom.

with socialism,,again, i have no idea what that means, except it is an alternative to crony capitalism/feudalism, i really do not see how you are calling socialism neo-feudalism. or why the neo? it is straight up feudalism we have in place now, same as it ever was except for brief moments of history when people rose up against the oppressors. i can accept that you are fine with the current system that works wonderfully well for the koch ssuckers and not so much for working families. and i find it ludicrous how gendao continues to bring up family this and that and at the same time is fine that in america 1/5 of children live below the official poverty level. 

like karl says-- capitalism is capital and socialism is people. the current supreme court supports capitalism even to the extreme--saying money is people and free speech, despite the obvious blatant contradiction in such a statement. i think my position is well known, i am for people. up with people and to hell with macaronis. i have a feather they can stick in their....cap

btw, today the imf  told europe to crank up the printing presses, europe is sinking fast. there is a indian middle class waiting to be created. i kinda anoticed as well how several european countries are increasing their military spending to unprecedented "peace time" levels, crony macaronis need fed and no matter how full their plate they have a ravenous appetite that cannot be satisfied. there is only one announced candidate in the us that would actually slash military spending and he happens to be a socialist. 

edit> cap

Edited July 27, 2015 by zerostao

[Karl]

agreed.

how is crony capitalism any different than feudalism?

on both---it is an elite group of barons (or macaronis) benefiting receiving 90% of the capital while everyone else is sent to serfdom.

with socialism,,again, i have no idea what that means, except it is an alternative to crony capitalism/feudalism, i really do not see how you are calling socialism neo-feudalism. or why the neo? it is straight up feudalism we have in place now, same as it ever was except for brief moments of history when people rose up against the oppressors. i can accept that you are fine with the current system that works wonderfully well for the koch ssuckers and not so much for working families. and i find it ludicrous how gendao continues to bring up family this and that and at the same time is fine that in america 1/5 of children live below the official poverty level. 

like karl says-- capitalism is capital and socialism is people. the current supreme court supports capitalism even to the extreme--saying money is people and free speech, despite the obvious blatant contradiction in such a statement. i think my position is well known, i am for people. up with people and to hell with macaronis. i have a feather they can stick in their....cap

btw, today the imf  told europe to crank up the printing presses, europe is sinking fast. there is a indian middle class waiting to be created. i kinda anoticed as well how several european countries are increasing their military spending to unprecedented "peace time" levels, crony macaronis need fed and no matter how full their plate they have a ravenous appetite that cannot be satisfied. there is only one announced candidate in the us that would actually slash military spending and he happens to be a socialist. 

edit> cap

 

Socialism is just another version of collectivist serfdom. However it is one of the nastiest for those who live under its heel. The body count in the USSR is staggering. Socialist don't like to uncover these harsh realities. They try to say socialism isn't like communism. Yet it is explicit in Marx works that it is the precursor to communism. A kitten eventually grows into a cat. If it happens to be a Tiger, beware.

[Brian]

agreed.

how is crony capitalism any different than feudalism?

on both---it is an elite group of barons (or macaronis) benefiting receiving 90% of the capital while everyone else is sent to serfdom.

with socialism,,again, i have no idea what that means, except it is an alternative to crony capitalism/feudalism, i really do not see how you are calling socialism neo-feudalism. or why the neo? it is straight up feudalism we have in place now, same as it ever was except for brief moments of history when people rose up against the oppressors. i can accept that you are fine with the current system that works wonderfully well for the koch ssuckers and not so much for working families. and i find it ludicrous how gendao continues to bring up family this and that and at the same time is fine that in america 1/5 of children live below the official poverty level. 

like karl says-- capitalism is capital and socialism is people. the current supreme court supports capitalism even to the extreme--saying money is people and free speech, despite the obvious blatant contradiction in such a statement. i think my position is well known, i am for people. up with people and to hell with macaronis. i have a feather they can stick in their....cap

btw, today the imf  told europe to crank up the printing presses, europe is sinking fast. there is a indian middle class waiting to be created. i kinda anoticed as well how several european countries are increasing their military spending to unprecedented "peace time" levels, crony macaronis need fed and no matter how full their plate they have a ravenous appetite that cannot be satisfied. there is only one announced candidate in the us that would actually slash military spending and he happens to be a socialist. 

edit> cap

I consider corporatism to be neofeudalism. The names change but the results are basically the same.

 

There are many flavors of statism and I don't like any of them.

 

I am in favor of people trading with each other.