Socialism does work

[Karl]

Stated openly and then completely swept under the rug.

 

I haven't even read that on any of the more libertarian sites. Fascinating stuff.

[Brian]

 

I haven't even read that on any of the more libertarian sites. Fascinating stuff.

All old news now and not worthy of airtime -- not like whether Bruce Jenner is a man or a woman or Trump's most recent outrageous statement of the day (regardless of whether it's true or not...)

[zerostao]

Well we have a marvellous socialised health care system which caused suffering and misery in one hospital in Staffordshire. The estimates of deaths caused by neglect and abuse is quoted as being as high as 1500 patients in that one hospital and the commission discovered it was far from being the only one. The socialist health minister at the time-Andy Burnham tried to influence the timing of the report for political reasons. Socialism at its best. Corrupt, murderous and ineffective. Selected commentary below thanks to the Guardian Newspaper:

 

if you believe your healthcare will be of higher quality and less corrupt, murderous, and ineffective in a non socialized system. i think your logical rationality is failing you. it will likely be the same employees in place in either system. if you feel the corruption of big pharma is somehow removed if you change the organization of the system in place, doesnt follow logic. 

regardless of insurance in place--the number 3 killer, statistically is a doctor. during the enlightenment, when logical rationality was very much in vogue--it was the rich, nobility, clergy, and doctors that were singled out as the cancer to society.

they didnt have socialized medicine in those days.........

[Karl]

All old news now and not worthy of airtime -- not like whether Bruce Jenner is a man or a woman or Trump's most recent outrageous statement of the day (regardless of whether it's true or not...)

 

Trump. I have no words.

[Karl]

if you believe your healthcare will be of higher quality and less corrupt, murderous, and ineffective in a non socialized system. i think your logical rationality is failing you. it will likely be the same employees in place in either system. if you feel the corruption of big pharma is somehow removed if you change the organization of the system in place, doesnt follow logic. 

regardless of insurance in place--the number 3 killer, statistically is a doctor. during the enlightenment, when logical rationality was very much in vogue--it was the rich, nobility, clergy, and doctors that were singled out as the cancer to society.

they didnt have socialized medicine in those days.........

 

A free market voluntary insurance scheme is the ultimate in social medicine. The Government has to get out of the way or corruption will remain. The logic here is simple. Everywhere there is socialism and state intervention things are worse. History confirms this over and over again. Why anyone would imagine this would be different for the medical business is beyond me ?

 

Im not sure of your argument in the second paragraph ? Socialism didn't exist at that time and the point about logical reasoning doesn't follow. It's a non sequitur.

[zerostao]

i dont claim to use the fallacy known as logical reasoning. i just make observations and go from that. one observation, and one can observe a lot (or as thelerner says alot) they are interchangeable))) just by watching.

what i have observed is that human nature is human nature despite whatever system is employed. there is no magical dystopia to be found anywhere, except for very brief moments---then human nature stays true to itself and things again become as they once were. folks that choose to be cops, clergy, doctors, politicians, etc there is a reason in their dna they choose the way they do. there are good and bad in all fields , i know there are good doctors somewhere. i also understand they are the minority. 

[Karl]

i dont claim to use the fallacy known as logical reasoning. i just make observations and go from that. one observation, and one can observe a lot (or as thelerner says alot) they are interchangeable))) just by watching.

what i have observed is that human nature is human nature despite whatever system is employed. there is no magical dystopia to be found anywhere, except for very brief moments---then human nature stays true to itself and things again become as they once were. folks that choose to be cops, clergy, doctors, politicians, etc there is a reason in their dna they choose the way they do. there are good and bad in all fields , i know there are good doctors somewhere. i also understand they are the minority. 

 

Then we fundamentally disagree on human nature.

 

 

[thelerner]

That's an excellent summation. So this is totalitarian collectivism in approach ? In which case my colourful description of Nazi isn't far off the mark.

No, the Nazi comment is off the mark.  Firstly its the use of Godin's Law which usually indicates a weak argument. Is 'collectivism' like free mandatory health care the sin that Nazi's are known for?  Secondly, it wreaks of the low brow level posts you see after every article on the Fox news site.   Where comments with colorful insults are applauded and logic arguments rare. 

 

That's not that you don't have a point.  I agree that democrats would like a socialist single payer system and the Affordable Care Act is probably seen by policy makers as a first step towards it.  But that's a far cry from 'colourful Nazi remark' imo.    

Edited August 14, 2015 by thelerner

[Karl]

No, the Nazi comment is off the mark.  Firstly its the use of Godin's Law which usually indicates a weak argument. Is 'collectivism' like free mandatory health care the sin that Nazi's are known for?  Secondly, it wreaks of the low brow level posts you see after every article on the Fox news site.   Where comments with colorful insults are applauded and logic arguments rare. 

 

That's not that you don't have a point.  I agree that democrats would like a socialist single payer system and the Affordable Care Act is probably seen by policy makers as a first step towards it.  But that's a far cry from 'colourful Nazi remark' imo.    

 

It was colourful language, I usually refrain from that, but was making the point that it wasn't what people thought it was. The Nazi regime were very good at that kind of caper. I particular refer to the people's car saving scheme which doesn't seem very much different. The people didn't get their cars, they paid for the machinery of war instead, but on the face of it, a nice low payment scheme with the end result of 'affordable' transport for everyone was very popular.

 

I think anyone quoting Godwin's law has a weak argument :-) fascism and communism are two sides of the same collectivism coin. It's entirely acceptable to compare to much of the Nazi policies because they are well known. I could have picked Franco, Stalin or Mussolini. I admit however that the direct reference to Nazi, was, intended to produce discussion.

[Apech]

Just an update on the great progress ...

 

[Marblehead]

September 12.

 

Sure, a worthy goal.

 

But they have to win first.

[Karl]

The economic illiterati.

 

End Austerity ? This is Government spending £50bn more than it steals every year in taxes and spends it all on public services. The debt is continuing to increase. Only a low interest rate is keeping the ship from flopping over like a dead whale.

 

QE ? The thing that is on the edge of plunging the global economy into the worst crash in history ? Possibly beginning tomorrow - and no, it isn't the fault of the Chinese economy, it's the fault of the Fed/BoE/ECB/BoJ for proppinig up the biggest malinvestment bubble in living memory...and Corbyn wants to do more of that ?

 

Then he threatens to renationalise the rail services without compensation ? Is he suggesting the theft of private property by force ? The mere suggestion that might happen will have major repercussions. What train company would consider continuing with a franchise under those conditions ? It's Atlas Shrugged for real. We wouldn't have a railway at all.

 

Opening derelict coal mines when the green socialists have seen to it that coal is outlawed as a source of power.?

 

Taking advice from Richard Murphy a glorified book keeper ? Corbyn is clearly crazier than a box of frogs.

 

At least we kick Labour out for good, but that leaves us with the Tory Authoritarian Socialists that need to go, but look like they will now be around for ever.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Karl

[Marblehead]

I guess we need a new world order.

 

How about Social Anarchy?

[Karl]

I guess we need a new world order.

 

How about Social Anarchy?

 

The problem with new world orders' is that they all end in old fashioned chaos.

[Brian]

And the parting on the left

Is now the parting on the right...

[Marblehead]

Sometimes I have days that are total lose/lose.

 

But sometimes I win.  That makes it worth my time.

[Karl]

The thing with all these talking heads is that none of them ever talk about getting the big, fat government boot off your neck. For all their talk of fairer societies and more equality, the operative word is force. How they are going to use the power of the state to make everybody else in their own image. They never talk about lifting the boot, only what kind of waffle pattern and studs will be embedded in your neck.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Karl

[Marblehead]

Therein lies the reason for my personal Anarchy.

[Apech]

So somebody explain why he is so popular - like Bernie Sanders in the US - at this point in history.  I will be giving prizes.

[Brian]

 

So somebody explain why he is so popular - like Bernie Sanders in the US - at this point in history. I will be giving prizes.

A chicken in every pot and a unicorn in every backyard.

[Karl]

So somebody explain why he is so popular - like Bernie Sanders in the US - at this point in history. I will be giving prizes.

Hands up who didn't side with Robin Hood ?

 

Socialism always sounds nice, who can argue with the whole liberty, egalitarianism, fraternity, equality for all and making the world a better place. Taking from the rich, giving to the poor, the broadcast shoulders, industry in the caring hands of the state. Free health, free schooling, free pensions, a job for all, higher wages.

 

It's hard not to refuse an offer like that.

 

I do understand why, because I also used to be a committed socialist. I also think there is some truth in the old adage that you should be a socialist when you are young. As you get older you become a Conservative as wisdom increases. I think if wisdom increases enough, you become an AC.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Karl

[kudos100]

Perhaps Apech should rename this thread: Karl, Brian and Marblehead discuss why socialism doesn't work, or maybe the K.B.M Like/Thank you circle jerk? 

 

Thank you. No my dear fellow, thank you. No I insist, thank you.........................

Edited August 26, 2015 by kudos100

[Karl]

Perhaps Apech should rename this thread: Karl, Brian and Marblehead discuss why socialism doesn't work, or maybe the K.B.M Like/Thank you circle jerk? 

 

Thank you. No my dear fellow, thank you. No I insist, thank you.........................

 

Well we argue like hell about everything else.

[Marblehead]

There is no precedent for disagreeing.  Someone will always disagree.

[Apech]

Ok just add to the mix - why do people like Donald Trump? (for Brits Nigel Farage)?