Socialism does work

[Brian]

Honestly, that first link simply appeared as one of many news stories when I opened a new browser window -- and I thought of you. 

 

Then, following your apologism, I just typed in "Venezuela shortages" and did a copy/paste on a few of the links on the first page of results.

[Chang]

I had hoped that this thread, with its pantomime quality of "It does work", "No it Doesn't", "Yes it does" had died a death.

 

But there's life in the old dog yet.

[Apech]

Hi ... my thread is back with a couple of interesting vids ...

 

 

[Apech]

and another

 

[Marblehead]

So how did socialism work out in the USSR?  Sure, it did last 60 years.

 

And yes, I know, there are examples of where it is working out a little better than the Communist version.  But still ...

[zerostao]

the western hemisphere is warming up to socialism

canada and usa anyways

 

http://news.yahoo.com/video/wall-streets-wisest-bernie-sanders-225000174.html;_ylt=AwrC0F.UU.JWeGsAh9KTmYlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTByMDgyYjJiBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMyBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--

 

http://www.mcss.gov.on.ca/en/mcss/programs/social/

 

http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=2179707b1a280410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD&vgnextchannel=36b2d08099380410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD

 

darn, i couldnt find that link i originally posted , where canada will try a pilot test welfare program of giving everyone 2500/month for just being alive

because elsewhere it has been shown this sort of thing 
INCREASES PRODUCTIVITY by 19%

 

if someone can find that link

Edited March 11, 2016 by zerostao

[Karl]

the western hemisphere is warming up to socialism

canada and usa anyways

 

http://news.yahoo.com/video/wall-streets-wisest-bernie-sanders-225000174.html;_ylt=AwrC0F.UU.JWeGsAh9KTmYlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTByMDgyYjJiBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMyBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--

 

http://www.mcss.gov.on.ca/en/mcss/programs/social/

 

http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=2179707b1a280410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD&vgnextchannel=36b2d08099380410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD

 

darn, i couldnt find that link i originally posted , where canada will try a pilot test welfare program of giving everyone 2500/month for just being alive

because elsewhere it has been shown this sort of thing 

INCREASES PRODUCTIVITY by 19%

 

if someone can find that link

 

It doesn't increase productivity by any such amount. Printing money causes consumption to rise initially and with it production. Once the markets reach equilibrium, the money becomes a zero in effect as everything rises in price. This is very old economic knowledge. Production is making stuff. If you could get production by not making stuff I.e printing money, then we could solve the worlds problems over night. No need to grow food, produce houses, just set the printing presses going. As is quickly discovered, fiat currency isn't very nutritious.

 

Why don't you download Henry Hazletts 'economics in one lesson'. It's a great, fast and easy read and will help you understand the basics and not get drawn into the Government/ banks illusionary games.

 

What should have occurred in the last crash, is that the creditors should have been wiped out and the assets liquidated. Instead they bailed out the creditors and effectively moved production from the lower paid to the 'on paper' wealthiest. Now they realise that was a mistake and are resorting to what amounts to 'helicopter money' now that the poor have been so depleted they cannot buy or borrow. They did that it in Zimbabwe and the Weimar Republic. It's the end game of monetary irresponsibility. Final shot of heroin before the addict dies. If you are sensible you should be buying precious metals and stocking up your larder with long life food about now, because the day of reckoning is coming.

[zerostao]

i am not an economist and have other studies to tend to(at the moment rousseau and next jane austen thomas paine, and journals of lewis and clark--then i get the summer off). maybe the world's economists somehow overlooked hazlett, idk, have no idea.  i am not saying which model is best and leave it to the economists to sort it all out. i am just pointing out what is under way here in usa and in canada. 

and besides unless we dip our toes into the water we really dont know how it will work out. 

why not give it a try

the world is changing regardless

germany basically just doubled down on its stimulus package

back in the day like 30-35 years ago when i was hanging around universities taking courses, partying etc

the talk was all about getting the internet up and running, using computers/robots to do our work

which makes things more efficient and productive. and then the powers that be will socialize the system

for the welfare of all (kinda what it says in the us constitution word for word)

and i wasnt referring to zimbabwe and the weimar republic, i was more pointing to finland and the netherlands, where productivity increased significantly.

as far as "what should have happened" when and where--what good does that do? can we go back and change what actually happened? i have been on strike since october 2008 and doing just fine now.

no stress

we can all reverie about some ideal primitive system, that worked in 1820, or 1971, pick any date--the good ol days, going out in nature and hunter gathering, and no one is stopping anyone from going and doing just that 

or one can find the way to coexist in the current system

no one's freedom of choice has been taken away

choose for yourself

it is the millennials world now, they will decide what the model for the masses is 

Edited March 11, 2016 by zerostao

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

"Healthcare and education, the two great golden calfs of politicians."

-----

 

These are concessions, items that cannot be unexploited in governing and controlling people.

 

It's what happens in the parcels of land that were originally stolen by force.

 

These are divided into municipalities and populated with custom-made worker/slaves.

 

"Food" is also essential part of "healthcare" - the part that necessitates it.

 

And media is also essential.

 

Because Monkey must see to do.

 

Systems of organizing the "citizens" are the systems of extracting value from them.

 

While limiting or "governing" them.

 

So when people are debating what system, it is a debate about how people would prefer to be run by rich people.

 

Corporations are straw men set up to protect the rich.

 

And allow the heinous legislated ("made up") protection.

 

So are states and nations, which are mostly also corporations.

 

People living in the hand of an elite.

 

Want to paint the nails of the hand.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Marblehead]

There's a lot of truth in that post.

[zerostao]

[Marblehead]

Hehehe.  Yeah, that didn't work out too well.

 

Socialism must be a controlled process.  Any form of government must be a controlled process.

 

I would select Socialism over many other forms of controlled processes.

 

But then, I'm an Anarchist.  Why am I even considering being controlled by someone else?

[Karl]

i am not an economist and have other studies to tend to(at the moment rousseau and next jane austen thomas paine, and journals of lewis and clark--then i get the summer off). maybe the world's economists somehow overlooked hazlett, idk, have no idea. i am not saying which model is best and leave it to the economists to sort it all out. i am just pointing out what is under way here in usa and in canada.

and besides unless we dip our toes into the water we really dont know how it will work out.

why not give it a try

the world is changing regardless

germany basically just doubled down on its stimulus package

back in the day like 30-35 years ago when i was hanging around universities taking courses, partying etc

the talk was all about getting the internet up and running, using computers/robots to do our work

which makes things more efficient and productive. and then the powers that be will socialize the system

for the welfare of all (kinda what it says in the us constitution word for word)

and i wasnt referring to zimbabwe and the weimar republic, i was more pointing to finland and the netherlands, where productivity increased significantly.

as far as "what should have happened" when and where--what good does that do? can we go back and change what actually happened? i have been on strike since october 2008 and doing just fine now.

no stress

we can all reverie about some ideal primitive system, that worked in 1820, or 1971, pick any date--the good ol days, going out in nature and hunter gathering, and no one is stopping anyone from going and doing just that

or one can find the way to coexist in the current system

no one's freedom of choice has been taken away

choose for yourself

it is the millennials world now, they will decide what the model for the masses is

Yes we do know how it will work out. Economics has specific laws much like geometry, we don't need to experiment to discover what the result of printing money will be. All that is required is a supply demand and price curve. The more money, the greater the demand, the higher the price. If an Angel gave everyone a million pounds tomorrow then the price of goods would be bid up until the equilibrium point is reached. Those who got the first flush of money would do considerably better than later recipients because they would buy the goods at a lower price.

 

Productivity kicked up in the USA prior to the 1930s crash and has done so recently in China. Always and everywhere the result is the same. Sudden investment in capital goods, followed by a boom and then a massive crash. The problem is the boom is mal invested. The market is not determining get allocation of scarce resource and so effort is wasted. An example is the Chinese ghost towns-enormous productive effort in producing goods which no one buys.

 

The model is the same one it always was. Time deferred consumption (saving) in order to accumulate sufficient capital to raise productivity through capital investment. The market decides what the value of the production is in relation to other forms of production. Money is just a cloakroom ticket for an uncollected coat. If you counterfeit lots more coat tickets than coats the result is a lot of people getting cold and very annoyed.

 

You can fit Henry Hazlitts book into a days reading. It's better than spouting Government propaganda without having a clue about its economic efficacy. They told you QE would work-it didn't.

 

https://mises.org/system/tdf/Henry%20Hazlitt%20Economics%20in%20One%20Lesson.pdf?file=1&type=document

Edited March 11, 2016 by Karl

[zerostao]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/29/why-are-there-suddenly-millions-of-socialists-in-america

[Karl]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/29/why-are-there-suddenly-millions-of-socialists-in-america

 

People will wear any kind of ridiculous thing for free stuff. Socialism promises free stuff. It's never succeeded in doing anything but creating misery, poverty and death, but that hasn't ever stopped the fools believing the claims of the snake oil salesmen.

[Marblehead]

People will wear any kind of ridiculous thing for free stuff. Socialism promises free stuff. It's never succeeded in doing anything but creating misery, poverty and death, but that hasn't ever stopped the fools believing the claims of the snake oil salesmen.

Twenty years ago I would have totally agreed with you.  But things have changed.  It's not just about free stuff any more.  Fairness has a lot to do with it.  The separation between the wealthy and the rest of Americans has dramatically widened.  Wages for the working class have decreased or stayed the same for the last twenty years but the number of multi-millionaire and billionaires has increased dramatically.

 

And it is our government that is allowing this to happen.  Many view the American government as being owned by the wealthy.  They want change.  The only change that has been offered is Socialism.

[Karl]

Twenty years ago I would have totally agreed with you.  But things have changed.  It's not just about free stuff any more.  Fairness has a lot to do with it.  The separation between the wealthy and the rest of Americans has dramatically widened.  Wages for the working class have decreased or stayed the same for the last twenty years but the number of multi-millionaire and billionaires has increased dramatically.

 

And it is our government that is allowing this to happen.  Many view the American government as being owned by the wealthy.  They want change.  The only change that has been offered is Socialism.

 

Unfortunately their idea of a cure is worse than the disease. Government cannot provide a solution for social or economic problems, they have a big stick to beat people and that's all they have.

 

People will have to look for themselves for change and stop believing that politicians can provide anything good. The Government are limited to robbery with menace, or menace with incarceration, or kidnap and murder. It doesn't matter if that's Bernie, Trump or anybody else.

 

I think the people are beginning to suspect that what they are being told is a far cry from the truth and are lining up to give the establishment a kicking. Of course, just like Star Wars, you can't expect that the empire will not strike back. They will use everything they have-and they have almost everything-to maintain the status quo. All they really need is for the people to believe the people are getting what they want in order to continue business as usual. Free stuff, protectionism, walls, tariffs, security are all very attractive to the mass men.

[Chang]

Twenty years ago I would have totally agreed with you.  But things have changed.  It's not just about free stuff any more.  Fairness has a lot to do with it.  The separation between the wealthy and the rest of Americans has dramatically widened.  Wages for the working class have decreased or stayed the same for the last twenty years but the number of multi-millionaire and billionaires has increased dramatically.

 

And it is our government that is allowing this to happen.  Many view the American government as being owned by the wealthy.  They want change.  The only change that has been offered is Socialism.

 

When I think of Socialists and their promise of a better, fairer world I am minded of the verse:-

 

"Hope springs eternal in the human breast;

Man never is, but always to be blessed:"

 

Socialists cam promise the world but they invariably fail to deliver and of course it is always someone else's fault.

[Marblehead]

Well, to be fair, the Nordic countries are doing pretty good with their mixture of capitalism and socialism.

 

And please keep in mind, I am not pro-Socialism.  But then, I don't like, in the most part,  what American Capitalism has become.

[Karl]

Well, to be fair, the Nordic countries are doing pretty good with their mixture of capitalism and socialism.

 

And please keep in mind, I am not pro-Socialism.  But then, I don't like, in the most part,  what American Capitalism has become.

 

I'm afraid they haven't done as well as you might have believed and despite socialism not because of it. That debt will now be paid in full, just as Greece discovered, burning all your furniture to heat your house doesn't come free.

 

American capitalism ended in 1900 and the new deal was socialistic.

[Brian]

Well, to be fair, the Nordic countries are doing pretty good with their mixture of capitalism and socialism.

 

And please keep in mind, I am not pro-Socialism. But then, I don't like, in the most part, what American Capitalism has become.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/03/10/garry-kasparov-hey-bernie-don-t-lecture-me-about-socialism-i-lived-through-it.html

[ralis]

So what do some of you want? Unbridled neoliberal capitalism? Unbridled greed/selfishness will save no one!

[Karl]

So what do some of you want? Unbridled neoliberal capitalism? Unbridled greed/selfishness will save no one!

 

existence is identity;consciousness is identification.

 

If you want it in plain economic terms it is laissez faire capitalism with strong law and justice protecting men's liberty and property. Not because this is some utopian, ideal political/economic system, but because it is the only one which complies with reality.

 

 

 

 

[ralis]

existence is identity;consciousness is identification. If you want it in plain economic terms it is laissez faire capitalism with strong law and justice protecting men's liberty and property. Not because this is some utopian, ideal political/economic system, but because it is the only one which complies with reality.

 

Absolute reality does not exist except in the mind of the Aristotelian rationalist. So called reality is just an abstraction created by the mind. So called good/evil excludes myriad other possibilities. Free market capitalism is just another scam.

Edited March 13, 2016 by ralis

[Karl]

Absolute reality does not exist except in the mind of the Aristotelian rationalist. So called reality is just an abstraction created by the mind. So called good/evil excludes myriad other possibilities. Free market capitalism is just another scam.

 

 

A rationalist believes reality is purely a concept derived from the mind. Your argument is a non sequitur. Reality is what is, that which exists and by which the senses provide precepts which are conceptualised and integrated. We have to conform with it or perish, it's as simple as that. Laissez Faire Capitalism conforms to reality and ethics guide our holding and obtaining values.