Socialism does work

[Apech]

They certainly rebranded themselves under New Labour and gave the impression of being a safe pair of hands to run the UK economy. It was, alas, simply smoke and mirrors and like all Socialist Governments it ended in tears. You may well remember their 1997 election song "Things Can Only Get Better."

 

Well they dindn't did they?

Well in my experience they did get better, quite a lot better until Tony Blair decided to have a go at being world saviour.

 

As regards the Labour Leadership election I was of the opinion that it would be best for the country for Corbyn to win as he would make Labour completely un electable. I now believe that this end would be best served by Yvette Cooper becoming the party leader. Her earnestness make one feel decidedly queasy.

 

yes I'm not keen on mrs. Balls.

 

... in fact they all, apart from Corbyn seem like candidates for middle management in a social services department - or perhaps even the losing team in one of the less interesting episodes of The Apprentice who are sitting anxiously in the Boardroom.

[Chang]

yes I'm not keen on mrs. Balls.

 

... in fact they all, apart from Corbyn seem like candidates for middle management in a social services department - or perhaps even the losing team in one of the less interesting episodes of The Apprentice who are sitting anxiously in the Boardroom.

 

They all seem to come out of the same politically correct mould which makes them bland to say the least. This is what make the likes of Jeremy Corbyn and Boris Johnson so attractive, they will tell you what they believe even if it drops them right in bother for doing so. You have to respect folk like that even if you completely disagree with what they say.

[Apech]

They all seem to come out of the same politically correct mould which makes them bland to say the least. This is what make the likes of Jeremy Corbyn and Boris Johnson so attractive, they will tell you what they believe even if it drops them right in bother for doing so. You have to respect folk like that even if you completely disagree with what they say.

 

 

They go straight from college (usually Oxford) with a PPE degree and into politics.  Boris is kind of fun ... but he started off as a joke on Have I Got News For You ... and somehow stumbled into power ... as PM? no thanks.

 

I like the fringe characters like the late Tony Benn ... you don't have to agree with them but you know some serious thinking and caring went into what they believed.

[Wu Ming Jen]

I may not be hip to UK politics but democratic socialism does seem to work on a basic level. Here in the US enter Bernie Sanders for president he is using european countries as an example of what works like free public college, free health care and so on by taxing the wealthy at the same rate as poor and middle class earnings to pay for these programs. Also he supports a higher minimum wage and equal pay for equal work no matter what gender your spirit may have jumped into. Another hot topic is GMO food by the chemical corporation Monsantos to be illegal not just labeled all for the benefit of humans not politics.

[Karl]

From my understanding, Thatcher was listening to the Neoliberals such as Milton Friedman, Robert Mundell and others that were promoting a more so called free market, privatization of governmental services, less regulation and tax cuts for the wealthy. Is this how it played out?

 

 

Sort of, almost there. I don't like to disparage Friedman but he really was a total statist.

The privatisation that thatcher adopted was Neo Nazi and not free market. Friedman has never been a freemarketeer and his theories are pretty much detested by thin libertarians

[Karl]

I may not be hip to UK politics but democratic socialism does seem to work on a basic level. Here in the US enter Bernie Sanders for president he is using european countries as an example of what works like free public college, free health care and so on by taxing the wealthy at the same rate as poor and middle class earnings to pay for these programs. Also he supports a higher minimum wage and equal pay for equal work no matter what gender your spirit may have jumped into. Another hot topic is GMO food by the chemical corporation Monsantos to be illegal not just labeled all for the benefit of humans not politics.

 

Everything can be made to work in a fashion. Have you access to the book 'economics in one lesson' by Henry Hazlitt, or the works of Bastiat 'the law' ?

[Apech]

Sort of, almost there. I don't like to disparage Friedman but he really was a total statist. The privatisation that thatcher adopted was Neo Nazi and not free market. Friedman has never been a freemarketeer and his theories are pretty much detested by thin libertarians

 

 

Neo Nazi?

[Karl]

Neo Nazi?

 

In economic terms very much a 'yes'. I don't know about his political sensibilities. He is pretty much reviled by the entire free maker economists.

[soaring crane]

I may not be hip to UK politics but democratic socialism does seem to work on a basic level. Here in the US enter Bernie Sanders for president he is using european countries as an example of what works like free public college, free health care and so on by taxing the wealthy at the same rate as poor and middle class earnings to pay for these programs. Also he supports a higher minimum wage and equal pay for equal work no matter what gender your spirit may have jumped into. Another hot topic is GMO food by the chemical corporation Monsantos to be illegal not just labeled all for the benefit of humans not politics.

 

You (all) should really stop using the word free like that. It's public investment in areas of public life that strengthen the country as a whole. But the revenues for it need to come from somewhere, and those who have the $$ need to be shown that it's good for them to make these investments.

 

Of course, in the specific case if the US, the levels of incompetence and corruption are so high, and the administration of programs so opaque, that it's shooting fish in a barrel for entrenched opponents to what should be self-evident in a modern western nation.

[soaring crane]

In economic terms very much a 'yes'. I don't know about his political sensibilities. He is pretty much reviled by the entire free maker economists.

 

Does Fascist Economics perhaps say the same thing, but without the nazi association?

 

It still wanders off into the hyperbolic, though.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thatcherism#Thatcherite_economics

[Apech]

In economic terms very much a 'yes'. I don't know about his political sensibilities. He is pretty much reviled by the entire free maker economists.

 

 

'He'? 

[Apech]

Does Fascist Economics perhaps say the same thing, but without the nazi association?

 

It still wanders off into the hyperbolic, though.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thatcherism#Thatcherite_economics

 

 

Forgive them they know not what they do.

 

For them liberal=socialist=communist=fascist=Nazi ... !

[Karl]

Does Fascist Economics perhaps say the same thing, but without the nazi association?

 

It still wanders off into the hyperbolic, though.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thatcherism#Thatcherite_economics

 

Yes, for sure. We can take the fascistic economics out of Nazi nationalism. Just as we can take the Prussian ideology out of Prussia.

[Karl]

'He'? 

 

Milton Friedman the pretender. The man who talks about the free market like a demon talks about salvation.

[Apech]

Yes, for sure. We can take the fascistic economics out of Nazi nationalism. Just as we can take the Prussian ideology out of Prussia.

 

 

Prussia!  Is it 1875?

[Karl]

Forgive them they know not what they do.

 

For them liberal=socialist=communist=fascist=Nazi ... !

 

Liberal is a corruption. Classical liberal is free market anti state intervention

Socialist/ communist identical

Fascist-socialist but with a twist. A totalitarian state which believes in nationalism and is inherently racist, but preserves the facade of private ownership of the means of production.

Nazi party- national socialist workers party. Hitler set out that as long as owners of production complied with state demands then he did not care who notionally owned what. If any business owner failed to comply with state demands the "the state would know what was needed to resolve the issue"

[Karl]

Prussia!  Is it 1875?

 

Indeed. It has been the course we have been following since the Prussian victory in the war. Based on the Platonic pyramid of authority.

 

1875. A lot happened, big changes in ideology which are here to this day. Some would say the Matrix was born in 1875.

[Chang]

Let those with ears listen. Socialist or otherwise.

 

[ralis]

Indeed. It has been the course we have been following since the Prussian victory in the war. Based on the Platonic pyramid of authority. 1875. A lot happened, big changes in ideology which are here to this day. Some would say the Matrix was born in 1875.

 

What are you talking about? Neo Nazi? Prussia? I suppose you will never read books that I suggested, but your own narrative must be extremely interesting in your own mind. Certainly, I have no clue as to whatever it is you are positing in the above statement. If you care to elaborate on the above, please do so. 

[Karl]

What are you talking about? Neo Nazi? Prussia? I suppose you will never read books that I suggested, but your own narrative must be extremely interesting in your own mind. Certainly, I have no clue as to whatever it is you are positing in the above statement. If you care to elaborate on the above, please do so. 

 

Oh it's you again. Can't you find someone else to haunt.

 

Yes, you have no clue. That's correct at least.

[ralis]

The famous 'greed is good speech' by Norman Gecko the reptilian lizard, the advocate of so called 'pure capitalism'.

 

The first part of the clip is a stockholder complaining that Gecko has over leveraged the company. Over leveraging is what brought down Bear Stearns on Wall Street back in 2008. Why? Their capitalization requirements were too low and a depreciation in their investments forced the company into bankruptcy. It was deregulation i.e, neoliberal economics that lead to this disaster on Wall Street. Crony capitalism and greed are what crashed the markets back in 2007 and 2008. 

 

[Karl]

The famous 'greed is good speech' by Norman Gecko the reptilian lizard, the advocate of so called 'pure capitalism'.

 

The first part of the clip is a stockholder complaining that Gecko has over leveraged the company. Over leveraging is what brought down Bear Stearns on Wall Street back in 2008. Why? Their capitalization requirements were too low and a depreciation in their investments forced the company into bankruptcy. It was deregulation i.e, neoliberal economics that lead to this disaster on Wall Street. Crony capitalism and greed are what crashed the markets back in 2007 and 2008. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Da1tDKFfno

 

Well 'reptilian lizard' might be somewhat of an overstatement.

 

Over leveraging is pretty much par for the course these days. Neoliberal economics-no argument from me, I agree completely.

Crony capitalism-absolutely. I shall put 'greed' on the back burner as it's just emotional hyperbole. No one can define it.

 

What crashed the markets ? Well same thing as always. The state and its central banks pumps fraudulent money into the economy like chumming for sharks. It gives a signal to the market that everyone has lots of spare money that they are putting in the banks and the more savings the lower the interest rate. Now the market goes into a buying frenzy because the booze is cheap and needs soaking up. The investment goes into areas of production and assets that it shouldn't in an unfettered economy. I would suggest you read the ABC but you won't LOL ( I can't ever imagine you doing that).

 

The bank regulators and the state are one and the same. They make their own laws to suit themselves.

[Karl]

Let those with ears listen. Socialist or otherwise.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWsx1X8PV_A

 

Very good, but Friedman is still an interventionist and doesn't really support free market capitalism. In reality he is a schill for Keynesian economics with a pretender of free market as monetarism. He is, in effect a corporatist.

[ralis]

Well 'reptilian lizard' might be somewhat of an overstatement. Over leveraging is pretty much par for the course these days. Neoliberal economics-no argument from me, I agree completely. Crony capitalism-absolutely. I shall put 'greed' on the back burner as it's just emotional hyperbole. No one can define it. What crashed the markets ? Well same thing as always. The state and its central banks pumps fraudulent money into the economy like chumming for sharks. It gives a signal to the market that everyone has lots of spare money that they are putting in the banks and the more savings the lower the interest rate. Now the market goes into a buying frenzy because the booze is cheap and needs soaking up. The investment goes into areas of production and assets that it shouldn't in an unfettered economy. I would suggest you read the ABC but you won't LOL ( I can't ever imagine you doing that). The bank regulators and the state are one and the same. They make their own laws to suit themselves.

 

I took undergraduate courses in economics and finance. I will have no need in reading the book you suggest. Also I am well read on the subject. What brought down Bear Stearns was not a buying frenzy, but over leveraging with liberal margin requirements. 

[Karl]

I took undergraduate courses in economics and finance. I will have no need in reading the book you suggest. Also I am well read on the subject. What brought down Bear Stearns was not a buying frenzy, but over leveraging with liberal margin requirements. 

 

Please stop with this 'I took an undergraduate course' Schtick. I don't care. I'm only interested in what you actually know. I won't think less or more of you so you can wind all this stuff up. We are two bozos on a forum discussing a subject.

 

Over leveraging with minimum margin requirements. Let's try that in English. What did they do ? They loaned money to people who couldn't pay it back.