Socialism does work

[Karl]

Well, sure, there are certain things in my life that I would not compromise with.

 

I would never have compromised with my Army duties.  Accomplish the mission.  Period.  (And stay alive.)

 

And true, once the war has started the time for talking has ended. 

 

:-)

 

The war has already started.

[Marblehead]

The more things change the more they stay the same. Here’s some input into this discussion on utopias from T’ao Ch’ien written around 400 AD……

A very nice working of Chapter 80 of the Tao Te Ching.

 

Thanks for sharing.

[Marblehead]

:-) The war has already started.

It hasn't reached me yet but I'm prepared.

[Karl]

It hasn't reached me yet but I'm prepared.

 

It found you the day you were born. The only choice you can make is which side you will take. Even in the last moments of life that remains forever true. What you do today ripples throughout history for all time.

[Marblehead]

It found you the day you were born. The only choice you can make is which side you will take. Even in the last moments of life that remains forever true. What you do today ripples throughout history for all time.

Naw.  I don't fight other people's wars.  I am pretty good at avoidance.

 

I mean, I have been married and divorces three times.  I know how to start a war and how to end them.  Now avoidance is key.

[Apech]

[Marblehead]

I likely wouldn't want to be in it.

[Karl]

I likely wouldn't want to be in it.

 

I think you might find you are paying for their membership of it.

[Marblehead]

I think you might find you are paying for their membership of it.

Donald and the pretty lady have had to make it without me but Bill and Hillary have gotten some from me.

[zerostao]

quantitative easing for the people  has a nice ring to it doesnt it? i just read a bloomberg piece on the best way to deal with the next (soon) 2008 type of financial situation. and the rest of the world might struggle but in american and europe, things can be handled smoothly, If, european govts would scrap this idea of pathological fiscal conservatism and despite the resistance sure to be encountered the only viable option as being best is expanded fiscal stimulus including "helicopter money"

oh, i just realized that the use of QE for the people in this case is different than the way corbyn uses it, sorry for that opening confusion apech 

when helicopter money (friedman) arrives in your neighborhood make sure to go out and grab some, it'll be fun!!

much funner than this idea of austerity , that very same that led to the 1930's great depression, and we know what followed that.

"The U.S. and the euro area could safely use fiscal stimulus again if they chose to. The proof is that long-term interest rates are low, inflation expectations well suppressed, and public-debt burdens supportable. Under the conditions of our thought-experiment, fiscal stimulus might even be debt-reducing, because it would support growth, and if the economy grows faster than the public debt, the ratio of debt to output falls."

ok, now how is it that corbyn uses this quantitative easing for people term?

[Karl]

quantitative easing for the people has a nice ring to it doesnt it? i just read a bloomberg piece on the best way to deal with the next (soon) 2008 type of financial situation. and the rest of the world might struggle but in american and europe, things can be handled smoothly, If, european govts would scrap this idea of pathological fiscal conservatism and despite the resistance sure to be encountered the only viable option as being best is expanded fiscal stimulus including "helicopter money"

oh, i just realized that the use of QE for the people in this case is different than the way corbyn uses it, sorry for that opening confusion apech

when helicopter money (friedman) arrives in your neighborhood make sure to go out and grab some, it'll be fun!!

much funner than this idea of austerity , that very same that led to the 1930's great depression, and we know what followed that.

"The U.S. and the euro area could safely use fiscal stimulus again if they chose to. The proof is that long-term interest rates are low, inflation expectations well suppressed, and public-debt burdens supportable. Under the conditions of our thought-experiment, fiscal stimulus might even be http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/Programs/ES/BPEA/2012_spring_bpea_papers/2012_spring_BPEA_delongsummers.pdf]debt-reducing[/url], because it would support growth, and if the economy grows faster than the public debt, the ratio of debt to output falls."

ok, now how is it that corbyn uses this quantitative easing for people term?

What do you think would be the result of 'helicopter money'?

QE was never going to work and economic 'stimulus' is the same old Keynesian thinking that has got us into this mess.

 

It's important to understand that fiscal stimulus will always create economic activity. It will create jobs and an enormous buzz of creative activity, but all of it is malinvestment. Eventually that malinvestment will unwind and with it will go all those newly created jobs, businesses and production. Money isn't production. It is the market that decides on what goods and services are required. If you gum up the works by destroying the value of money then the eventual result will be an enormous crash.

 

It's also important to understand that Governments do not produce anything at all. There are no money multipliers. Therefore fiscal profligacy is simply taking a share of the production and moving it about. Instead of the producers deciding where to spend their production, the government decides instead. There is no market function in Government decisions as they are a monopoly and they take and spend without care to loss or profit. Of course if the Government print and spend it will create the same momentary economic boost, but eventually it will end in the same way as the QE to Wall Street, or helicopter money to the people.

 

The result is always some form of inflation. Current QE has boosted the wealth of the wealthiest by increasing asset values and stocks. It has created lots of jobs in a market which should not exist. Meanwhile this printing is stealing the wealth of the middle class and savers. It has created no improvement on Main Street.

 

QE helicopter money is the final act of desperation. If you give everybody £100K to spend then what exactly do you think will be the result ? Prices will rise as more money chases fewer goods. Those who get the money spent first will gain by seeing their purchases rise in value. It will make manufacturers invest to keep up with the new demand until the monetary stimulus ends. Then comes the crash. The only way to keep it going is more printing which drives prices higher again. Some discover that their money isn't buying anything. The worst thing is that manufacturers are now investing where they would not normally invest. The crash is catastrophic.

 

It's the same if the government spends it. Currently the UK is spending £50/70bn more than it receives in tax. We have had QE, subsidised home/ business/student loans as has the USA. None of the fiscal stimulus has resulted in much at all. Currently it is requiring £17 of government spending to increase GDP by £1. We have had very little austerity at all- more delayed/ reduced state employee pay rises. Eventually we will have to pay the piper. Our chancellor has promised to cut this deficit, but he promised that during his previous 5 years and has done virtually nothing, it would be a shock if he actually intends to do anything during this five year term. I think reality will catch up with hm before he has time to implement the promised cuts.

 

It wasn't austerity that created the ongoing problem in the 1930s but the new deal and state spending. The crash was a result-as always-of monetary expansion. Easy credit, cheap money.

 

Here's a challenge:

 

https://mises.org/sites/default/files/Americas%20Great%20Depression_3.pdf

Edited August 30, 2015 by Karl

[zerostao]

What do you think would be the result of 'helicopter money'?

a new paradigm !! the old models are no longer useful

 

It's important to understand that fiscal stimulus will always create economic activity. It will create jobs and an enormous buzz of creative activity,

YES!! it will bring in a new era of exciting times, there will be winners and losers and new heros

 

 Money isn't production. It is the market that decides on what goods and services are required. If you gum up the works by destroying the value of money then the eventual result will be an enormous crash.

getting the money directly from the source and not having to go thru wall street banksters!!  freedom from oppression in other words

hopefully we could destroy the wealth(y) altogether. it is their sense of entitlement that has gummed up the system

 

It's also important to understand that Governments do not produce anything at all.

govt runs the printing presses print baby print!!! 

 it will end in the same way as the QE to Wall Street, or helicopter money to the people.

that remains to be seen. if we have given corporations and money the rights of people and stolen from the middle class and workers already--

so now the pendulum swings the other direction and people get the rights of money and corporations, it balances everything back

 

The result is always some form of inflation.

we need inflation to balance the public debts without toppling the entire civilization

 

Current QE has boosted the wealth of the wealthiest by increasing asset values and stocks. It has created lots of jobs in a market which should not exist. Meanwhile this printing is stealing the wealth of the middle class and savers. It has created no improvement on Main Street.

this is exactly why helicopter money makes perfect sense!!! it returns money back that was stolen by the rich

the savers are no better than the deadbeats--they are refusing to participate

 

QE helicopter money is the final act of desperation.

the current climate calls for it--let the good times roll

 

If you give everybody £100K to spend then what exactly do you think will be the result ?

another boom bust type of thing perhaps, but whatever model is used this is unavoidable it is a vicious cycle 

it will be very interesting and exciting to see how it all shakes out, sure it may all trickle up to the elite but at least for a moment everyone had their chance to play a hand

 

 Those who get the money spent first will gain by seeing their purchases rise in value. 

absolutely!! imagine the energy ! and that point you make is certainly something to keep in mind

 

 Currently the UK is spending £50/70bn more than it receives in tax.

the new model will increase tax revenues obviously!!

 

We have had QE, subsidised home/ business/student loans as has the USA. None of the fiscal stimulus has resulted in much at all. Currently it is requiring £17 of government spending to increase GDP by £1.

i wish i could pick stocks consistently with a p/e of 17:1 sounds like your govt is on the ball

 

We have had very little austerity at all-

count your lucky stars for that

 

 Eventually we will have to pay the piper. 

time is fast approaching and yes you will have to pay us pipers!!

 

 Easy credit, cheap money

yeah baby about damn time!!!

edit>> remember you are the aristotelian (sp?) this is what democracy looks like!!!

it is a more civil type of revolution, political, socio economic---

rather than the rationalistic thinking style that gave 1789

Edited August 30, 2015 by zerostao

[Karl]

What do you think would be the result of 'helicopter money'?a new paradigm !! the old models are no longer useful

It's important to understand that fiscal stimulus will always create economic activity. It will create jobs and an enormous buzz of creative activity,

YES!! it will bring in a new era of exciting times, there will be winners and losers and new heros

 

 Money isn't production. It is the market that decides on what goods and services are required. If you gum up the works by destroying the value of money then the eventual result will be an enormous crash.

getting the money directly from the source and not having to go thru wall street banksters!!  freedom from oppression in other words

hopefully we could destroy the wealth(y) altogether. it is their sense of entitlement that has gummed up the system

It's also important to understand that Governments do not produce anything at all.

govt runs the printing presses print baby print!!! 

 it will end in the same way as the QE to Wall Street, or helicopter money to the people.

that remains to be seen. if we have given corporations and money the rights of people and stolen from the middle class and workers already--

so now the pendulum swings the other direction and people get the rights of money and corporations, it balances everything back

The result is always some form of inflation.

we need inflation to balance the public debts without toppling the entire civilization

 

Current QE has boosted the wealth of the wealthiest by increasing asset values and stocks. It has created lots of jobs in a market which should not exist. Meanwhile this printing is stealing the wealth of the middle class and savers. It has created no improvement on Main Street.

this is exactly why helicopter money makes perfect sense!!! it returns money back that was stolen by the rich

the savers are no better than the deadbeats--they are refusing to participate

QE helicopter money is the final act of desperation.

the current climate calls for it--let the good times roll

 

If you give everybody £100K to spend then what exactly do you think will be the result ?

another boom bust type of thing perhaps, but whatever model is used this is unavoidable it is a vicious cycle 

it will be very interesting and exciting to see how it all shakes out, sure it may all trickle up to the elite but at least for a moment everyone had their chance to play a hand

 

 Those who get the money spent first will gain by seeing their purchases rise in value. 

absolutely!! imagine the energy ! and that point you make is certainly something to keep in mind

 Currently the UK is spending £50/70bn more than it receives in tax.

the new model will increase tax revenues obviously!!

 

We have had QE, subsidised home/ business/student loans as has the USA. None of the fiscal stimulus has resulted in much at all. Currently it is requiring £17 of government spending to increase GDP by £1.

i wish i could pick stocks consistently with a p/e of 17:1 sounds like your govt is on the ball

 

We have had very little austerity at all-

count your lucky stars for that

 

 Eventually we will have to pay the piper. 

time is fast approaching and yes you will have to pay us pipers!!

 Easy credit, cheap money

yeah baby about damn time!!!

 

I can see that any further explanation is pointless. I hope you get all you deserve. Certainly Germany did.

[zerostao]

I can see that any further explanation is pointless.

well not sure i follow, i thought germany is holding

sway calling for austerity in europe? 

at least for the ones who have less

 

 

I hope you get all you deserve. 

thank you!!  no fear!! you should let go of fear

change happens and whatever the outcome , so be it

 besides, neither of us make economic policy do we? it's just banter on my part

but a poor boy can dream, right?

[Karl]

 besides, neither of us make economic policy do we? it's just banter on my part

but a poor boy can dream, right?

 

If you don't understand what helicopter QE will do then you won't be prepared. It is much worse for the poor. I said it was last gasp desperation, it is of a failing state and doomed currency. It will throw pensioners and savers under a bus, the wealthy will already have themselves in a safety zone. It's what happens when the straw sucks up the last bit of drink left in the glass. After that will be the big reset. Probably the end of paper currency completely. If it has torn down the global economy they will install a world currency.

[Karl]

edit>> remember you are the aristotelian (sp?) this is what democracy looks like!!!

it is a more civil type of revolution, political, socio economic---

rather than the rationalistic thinking style that gave 1789

 

No, I'm not Aristotelian. We haven't had democracy for a long time and even when we had an approximation of it, it still wasn't true democracy. This is what collectivist crony fascism looks like.

[Karl]

Socialism helps in culling the old:

 

 

Woman, 80, Trampled to Death in Venezuelan Supermarket Stampede

Crazed money printing plus price controls equals chaos and death.

 

The Democratic Unity coalition said Maria Aguirre died and another 75 people were injured - including five security officials - in chaotic scenes when National Guard troops sought to control a 5,000-strong crowd with teargas.

 

 

 

 

"Due to the shortage of food ... the desperation is enormous," local opposition politician Andres Camejo said, according to the coalition's website. It published a photo of an elderly woman's body lying inert on a concrete floor.

 

Camejo said thieves had also attacked the crowd, members of which were seeking to buy cheap food at an outlet of the state's Mercal supermarket chain in Barinas state.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Karl

[Brian]

Socialism helps in culling the old:

 

 

Woman, 80, Trampled to Death in Venezuelan Supermarket Stampede

Crazed money printing plus price controls equals chaos and death.

 

The Democratic Unity coalition said Maria Aguirre died and another 75 people were injured - including five security officials - in chaotic scenes when National Guard troops sought to control a 5,000-strong crowd with teargas.

 

 

 

 

"Due to the shortage of food ... the desperation is enormous," local opposition politician Andres Camejo said, according to the coalition's website. It published a photo of an elderly woman's body lying inert on a concrete floor.

 

Camejo said thieves had also attacked the crowd, members of which were seeking to buy cheap food at an outlet of the state's Mercal supermarket chain in Barinas state.

You haven't been around here long enough to know this but the USA are responsible for Venezuelan domestic woes.

 

Turns out that one of the very few things we do effectively is somehow manipulating Marxist dictators into turning their armies on their citizens after they run out of other people's money.

[Karl]

Socialism eh ?

[Marblehead]

Hey.  If it's free it must be socialism.

[Apech]

 

... no particular reason just liked it.

[Brian]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/a-large-order-of-mcdonalds-fries-costs-about-dollar126-in-venezuela/ar-BBmTeuC

[Apech]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/a-large-order-of-mcdonalds-fries-costs-about-dollar126-in-venezuela/ar-BBmTeuC

 

 

US exported junk food costs too much shock story.

[Brian]

OK, try this, then:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortages_in_Venezuela

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/looting-venezuela-shortages_55bcec4de4b0d4f33a0309a3

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/venezuela/11385294/Venezuelas-socialist-paradise-turns-into-a-nightmare-medical-shortages-claim-lives-as-oil-price-collapses.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/17/venezuela-shortages-explained_n_7298426.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/08/water-rationing-venezuela_n_5288748.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/01/venezuela-rationing_n_5072160.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/14/venezuela-appliances_n_4277390.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/10/venezuela-app-locates-scarce-items_n_3415617.html

 

Food, water, medicine, toilet paper, appliances, you name it.

Seems like a healthy country...

<shrug>

[Apech]

You seem a little obsessed to be honest.