So where is the kingdom?

[Bindi]

I find myself thinking about the fundamental difference between these two world views quite a lot, and I wonder what others might think.

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Luke 17:21

And

Jesus said: If those who lead you say to you: See, the kingdom is in heaven, then the birds of the heaven will go before you; if they say to you: It is in the sea, then the fish will go before you. But the kingdom is within you, and it is outside of you. Verse 3 Gospel of Thomas

[Nikolai1]

The word 'inside' is a metaphor.  The KIngdom is that place from where things on the inside and things on the outside are both seen.  When you reach the Kingdom you understand that inner and outer are the same thing.

 

Why might the word 'inner' be used as a metaphor? Because wherever we go, whatever we do, we are in the Kingdom. We carry it with us, like our vital organs.  Inside is a good metaphor for this reason.

 

But so is the Kingdom as outside also a good metaphor.  Wherever we look we can see the Kingdom.  The beauty and the bliss of the Kingdom is everywhere in creation.  We are never not seeing it and feeling it.  

[Jonesboy]

Hi Bindi,

 

Non duality.

 

Jesus is saying the same thing as Krishna and the Buddha. We are one with all things not separate.

 

Pretty clear and beautiful if you ask me.

 

To finish the above quote:

 

3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

 

When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

 

That last part is pretty interesting

 

 

Thank you for the quotes.

 

Tom

Edited July 20, 2015 by Jonesboy

[Jonesboy]

I always think of the Heart Sutra when I read this one.

 

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.'

 

If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.'

 

If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

[Jeff]

I find myself thinking about the fundamental difference between these two world views quite a lot, and I wonder what others might think.

 

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Luke 17:21

 

And

 

Jesus said: If those who lead you say to you: See, the kingdom is in heaven, then the birds of the heaven will go before you; if they say to you: It is in the sea, then the fish will go before you. But the kingdom is within you, and it is outside of you. Verse 3 Gospel of Thomas

 

You may find these words of Jesus helpful on the topic...

 

Mark 3:24-25

24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

 

1Corinthians 15:47-50

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

 

One realizes the "inside", then expands to the "outside" and finally realizes that the inside and the outside were really always the same thing.

 

Best wishes.

[Daeluin]

It's all about the heart of things. And the heart of things existed before 3 dimensional space - therefore we cannot find the heart of things using the coordinates of 3 dimensional space. The heart of things has no location within this space, and exists in every location in this space, simultaneously.

 

This appears to be on the same general wavelength of modern cosmological theories.

 

When the whole is divided, parts need names. And when we are only looking at this part or that part, we turn our back on other parts. To find the center, we must accept all parts. And when we look for the center out in the world, we are always looking at things from the outside in, and they all seem so different.

 

When we look inside ourselves, we can also look at the different parts. Yet if we cultivate our own inner whole, and allow ourselves to sink into the heart of hearts, feel our inside out perspective and return to the origin of it, allow all our different parts to join with this heart of hearts, we begin to tap into that original root, that place that exists before three dimensional space, that place that defies location.

 

As we find our center, we too need to begin to realize this center as the source of all things - the source we find at our heart is non other than the source at the heart of everything. And rather than looking at things from the outside in, we begin to feel a resonance between our heart and the heart of others. This can lead to increased sensitivity and desire to protect oneself when around others, as one feels another tug this way or pull that way - but if one simply detaches from needing to control everything going on in one's field, one is able to expand one's field out across the universe, accepting of all as one. The more we are able to accept and open this way, the more we will be able to maintain our connection to the center, even while tossing in the waves of creation. Stepping into freefall this way may require some gradual maneuvering into a position where one naturally flows towards what resonates, without being in danger of running into obstacles that cannot be overcome. It is all a matter of timing and positioning of what remains of "you" within the whole.

 

Thus we first look within to find the "kingdom," but in the end we realize it is within and without, and the two are one.

 

It is easy to think the world is flat and that people from different continents must be from other worlds - but as awareness grows, we come to realize all these different worlds share the same center within the same planet. It is easy to build walls and wage wars to protect us from them - but as we evolve we come to understand it is in our best interest to nurture what is best for all of us together.

[Nungali]

Well, he was some sort of mystical Jew wasn't he ?

 

I suppose, in that light, the kingdom is within and must be forged. first within. 

 

How to achieve that.

 

One who has 'dominion' has a kingdom (or 'empire' )  ,  the thing he should have  dominion over  ( the parts of himself - not  dominion over others )

 

Lets call it Kingship ... in Kabbalah it relates to Malkuth - the 'Sphere on / in which we stand'.  'Material' reality.

 

Moving up the Tree of Life, the next sphere is Yesod , foundation .   here are a whole range of internal things, practices, developments, strengths and qualities that one's work is based on.

 

Next is Hod - splendour.  A king can hide as a beggar, but a beggar  cannot pretend to be king  (not without a lot of help, or some  plan on the part of king) .

 

Next Netzach or eternity, or victory - long lasting, power, endurance.  Tiphareth - beauty, or 'glory'  not  just external looks, but radiance from what comes from within, the radiance of the true kingly nature.   Then the two spheres of balance of severity and mercy - bot qualities a king must have - for severity without mercy is cruelty that leads to oppression, but unbalanced mercy is weakness that allows and abets evil to exist.

 

'Hidden' in the 'abyss' is Daath , knowledge that must be tempered by the above two higher polarities in Binah and chokmah of understanding and wisdom and , when all this is accomplished one may take the Crown ( kether - at the top of the system and place it on one's head, completing the kingship and being able to rule the empire of self and the kingdom within.

 

 

 

The King is within and yourself , the King is the 'master controller circuit ' * the king is the 'magician' that is able to control and direct the forces of the psyche.  He resides within , but he is restricted in 'power' and operation unless his kingship is 'divine' and connected to the 'divine'  ++

 

 

*    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-circuit_model_of_consciousness#6._The_neuroelectric_or_metaprogramming_circuit     @  6. 

 

++  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-circuit_model_of_consciousness#6._The_neuroelectric_or_metaprogramming_circuit  @ 8.  ( But the kingdom is within you, and it is outside of you) 

Edited July 20, 2015 by Nungali

[Bindi]

Hi Bindi,

 

 

...To finish the above quote:

 

3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

 

When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

 

That last part is pretty interesting

 

 

Thank you for the quotes.

 

Tom

 

Indeed, I have no argument with you there, this must be one of the simplest truisms ever, but always worth repeating.

 

“Know Thyself” was written on the forecourt of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, and “Man, know thyself, and thou shalt know the Gods” was an ancient Egyptian saying, so this knowledge has been around for an awfully long time.

 

Shakespeare knew it when he penned these words “Of all knowledge, the wise and good seek most to know themselves”, and more recently Ramana Maharshi taught that the direct path to Self-realisation was Self-enquiry.

 

If all religion/spirituality was based on this principle truly enacted, there might be a lot fewer problems in this world.

[Bindi]

Well, he was some sort of mystical Jew wasn't he ?

 

I suppose, in that light, the kingdom is within and must be forged. first within. 

 

How to achieve that.

 

One who has 'dominion' has a kingdom (or 'empire' )  ,  the thing he should have  dominion over  ( the parts of himself - not  dominion over others )

 

Lets call it Kingship ... in Kabbalah it relates to Malkuth - the 'Sphere on / in which we stand'.  'Material' reality.

 

Moving up the Tree of Life, the next sphere is Yesod , foundation .   here are a whole range of internal things, practices, developments, strengths and qualities that one's work is based on.

 

Next is Hod - splendour.  A king can hide as a beggar, but a beggar  cannot pretend to be king  (not without a lot of help, or some  plan on the part of king) .

 

Next Netzach or eternity, or victory - long lasting, power, endurance.  Tiphareth - beauty, or 'glory'  not  just external looks, but radiance from what comes from within, the radiance of the true kingly nature.   Then the two spheres of balance of severity and mercy - bot qualities a king must have - for severity without mercy is cruelty that leads to oppression, but unbalanced mercy is weakness that allows and abets evil to exist.

 

'Hidden' in the 'abyss' is Daath , knowledge that must be tempered by the above two higher polarities in Binah and chokmah of understanding and wisdom and , when all this is accomplished one may take the Crown ( kether - at the top of the system and place it on one's head, completing the kingship and being able to rule the empire of self and the kingdom within.

 

 

 

The King is within and yourself , the King is the 'master controller circuit ' * the king is the 'magician' that is able to control and direct the forces of the psyche.  He resides within , but he is restricted in 'power' and operation unless his kingship is 'divine' and connected to the 'divine'  ++

 

 

*    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-circuit_model_of_consciousness#6._The_neuroelectric_or_metaprogramming_circuit     @  6. 

 

++  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-circuit_model_of_consciousness#6._The_neuroelectric_or_metaprogramming_circuit  @ 8.  ( But the kingdom is within you, and it is outside of you) 

 

Many thanks for posting this Nungali, I found it very helpful in sorting out where my confusion was.

[Bindi]

You may find these words of Jesus helpful on the topic...

 

Mark 3:24-25

24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

 

1Corinthians 15:47-50

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

 

One realizes the "inside", then expands to the "outside" and finally realizes that the inside and the outside were really always the same thing.

 

Best wishes.

 

To continue Paul the apostle's epistle to the Corinthians:

 

"...flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption

51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—

52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

1Corinthians 15:51-54

 

In this verse Paul claims that the kingdom of God is neither within nor without for the living, but will only be inherited by  Christians that have died and are raised in their bodies and transformed when Christ returns. This is a third alternative view of where the kingdom is, and to some Christians not without merit, but it is a view that is not really relevant to me at the moment.

[Nikolai1]

In this verse Paul claims that the kingdom of God is neither within nor without for the living, but will only be inherited by  Christians that have died and are raised in their bodies and transformed when Christ returns. This is a third alternative view of where the kingdom is, and to some Christians not without merit, but it is a view that is not really relevant to me at the moment.

This isn't a third view.  The returning of Christ IS the time when the inner and outer become one.  There is only one outcome being discussed here.  When we enter the Kingdom we realise our identity with Christ.  Our entering, and Christ's returning are the same event.

[Spotless]

This isn't a third view.  The returning of Christ IS the time when the inner and outer become one.  There is only one outcome being discussed here.  When we enter the Kingdom we realise our identity with Christ.  Our entering, and Christ's returning are the same event.

 

Well done Nikolai1

[Bindi]

This isn't a third view.  The returning of Christ IS the time when the inner and outer become one.  There is only one outcome being discussed here.  When we enter the Kingdom we realise our identity with Christ.  Our entering, and Christ's returning are the same event.

Ah, I see. I was referring to the kingdom of God, and I must admit I wasn't limiting it to the second coming of Christ, and the Pauline view. I fully believe that the kingdom within that Jesus was referring to was not just for Christians.

[Nikolai1]

Hi Bindi,

 

I fully believe that the kingdom within that Jesus was referring to was not just for Christians. 

Yes me too!, but of course there were no Christians for Jesus to speak to...just people whose spiritual needs weren't being satisfied by the Judaism of the day.

 

Now, to be a Christian IS believing that the Kingdom is only for Christians and that Jesus speaks only to his professed followers.

 

If you are able to hold such a belief, it is of great spiritual power for you. The downside is that it doesn't bring peace and understanding between different religions.

 

If this Christianity doesn't satisfy you then you are in the same position as those who originally heard Jesus's words. 

[Karl]

Jesus was just a man if he existed at all.

The Bible is cobbled together out of millennia of different religions, cultures, stories and myths. That said there is a lot of common sense within its pages.

God-as in a creator or supreme being has no factual, or logical basis for existence.

Heaven-if that means the stars and planets we see, that exists-a nirvana type place invented by rulers to get obedience has no factual/logical basis for existence ( Jihadists are still at it- blowing themselves up to enter nirvana/ heaven ).

Kingdom derivation of Kings Domain/dominance.

 

What did the parables mean ? Impossible to know in most cases. Even the simplest can easily be misinterpreted by our changing context.

 

Looking for the Kingdom of heaven is equivalent to looking for the treasure at the end of the rainbow, or the tooth fairy.

 

 

 

 

[Apech]

Jesus was just a man if he existed at all. The Bible is cobbled together out of millennia of different religions, cultures, stories and myths. That said there is a lot of common sense within its pages. God-as in a creator or supreme being has no factual, or logical basis for existence. Heaven-if that means the stars and planets we see, that exists-a nirvana type place invented by rulers to get obedience has no factual/logical basis for existence ( Jihadists are still at it- blowing themselves up to enter nirvana/ heaven ). Kingdom derivation of Kings Domain/dominance. What did the parables mean ? Impossible to know in most cases. Even the simplest can easily be misinterpreted by our changing context. Looking for the Kingdom of heaven is equivalent to looking for the treasure at the end of the rainbow, or the tooth fairy.

 

 

Thank you Karl that was very revealing.

[dawei]

If I could bring in a similar meaning from Laozi, I would say this section touches on the idea of inner realized (attained one) with outer:

 

Ch. 39:

Those that attained oneness since ancient times:
The sky attained oneness and thus clarity
The earth attained oneness and thus tranquility
The gods attained oneness and thus divinity
The valley attained oneness and thus abundance
The myriad things attained oneness and thus life
The rulers attained oneness and became the standard for the world
These all emerged from oneness

 

The sky, lacking clarity, would break apart
The earth, lacking tranquility, would erupt
The gods, lacking divinity, would vanish
The valley, lacking abundance, would wither
Myriad things, lacking life, would be extinct
The rulers, lacking standard, would be toppled

[Jeff]

Jesus was just a man if he existed at all.

The Bible is cobbled together out of millennia of different religions, cultures, stories and myths. That said there is a lot of common sense within its pages.

God-as in a creator or supreme being has no factual, or logical basis for existence.

Heaven-if that means the stars and planets we see, that exists-a nirvana type place invented by rulers to get obedience has no factual/logical basis for existence ( Jihadists are still at it- blowing themselves up to enter nirvana/ heaven ).

Kingdom derivation of Kings Domain/dominance.

 

What did the parables mean ? Impossible to know in most cases. Even the simplest can easily be misinterpreted by our changing context.

 

Looking for the Kingdom of heaven is equivalent to looking for the treasure at the end of the rainbow, or the tooth fairy.

 

Such as you are describing about the nature of heaven and God is not in the gospels or the words of Jesus. Here is an example of the way Jesus actually describes it...

 

Luke 17: 20-21

20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

 

Best wishes.

[Jonesboy]

"...flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption

51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—

52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

1Corinthians 15:51-54

 

In this verse Paul claims that the kingdom of God is neither within nor without for the living, but will only be inherited by Christians that have died and are raised in their bodies and transformed when Christ returns. This is a third alternative view of where the kingdom is, and to some Christians not without merit, but it is a view that is not really relevant to me at the moment.

 

 

Hi Bindi,

 

To me this is about oneness.

 

51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— This is not all will end in cessation.

 

52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.- What is that, that never dies that is one with all things? Those who belong to samsara (perishable) must clothe themselves with the imperishable (Oneness), and we will be changed.

 

54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

1Corinthians 15:51-54 - When you have achieved oneness and moved beyond samsara you will come to understand the meaning “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

 

I would also point out that Jesus never called himself a Christ. The term Christ was coined hundred of years later by the church.

 

 

P.S. My browser upgrade messes with things so I can't do a proper quote.. weird.

[Aetherous]

It would be good to gather all of the quotes on the "kingdom" from the New Testament...if one of them continues to not make sense in relation to our definition/interpretation of the kingdom, then we know that the true meaning is something else.

[Apech]

Try this.  What does 'within' or 'without' actually mean when you are talking about either the Godhead or the true Self?

[Bindi]

 

 

Hi Bindi,

 

To me this is about oneness.

 

When you have achieved oneness and moved beyond samsara you will come to understand the meaning “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

 

I would also point out that Jesus never called himself a Christ. The term Christ was coined hundred of years later by the church.

 

 

P.S. My browser upgrade messes with things so I can't do a proper quote.. weird.

 

It's not really relevant to any part of the discussion, but I will respond to this sentence first, just because it bugs me.

 

In John 1:41, John the Baptist (who was always having to deny that HE was the Christ), pointed out Jesus to some of his disciples. Two of them followed Jesus, figured out who he was, and one of them (Andrew) went and told his brother (Simon Peter), " 'We have found the Messias', which is, being interpreted, the Christ. " (If he'd been speaking Hebrew or Aramaic he would have said "We have found the Messiah". If he'd been speaking Greek, he would have said "We have found the Christ".)

 

In Luke 4:41, the devils that he cast out of people acknowledged him as "Christ the Son of God". He told them not to tell anybody.

 

In John 4:25-26, Jesus told the woman at the well in Samaria that he was the Christ. In verses 29 and 42, the Samaritans testified that he was the Christ, so they also knew early.

 

In John 10:24-25, the Jews said "Look, stop playing games with us. If you're the Christ, tell us plainly." And he answered "I already did, but you didn't believe me."

 

In Matt 16:16, Peter answers Jesus' "Whom say ye that I am?" query with "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." First quoted usage. This is some time before his trial and crucifixion. Four verses later he warns his disciples not to tell anybody he's "Jesus the Christ".

 

In Matt 22:42, he asks the Pharisees almost the same question he asked Peter: "What think ye of Christ? Whose son is he?" The ensuing response suggests that the Pharisees didn't know him as the Christ.

 

In Matt 26:63-68, in his trial before Caiaphas the high priest, Caiaphas asks him directly if he is the Christ. Jesus admits that he is, and they mock him because they don't believe him. (see also Mark 15:32; Luke 23:35, 39)

 

In Luke 23:2, the people take him before Pilate, and one of their accusations is that Jesus was "saying that he himself is Christ a King".

 

After his resurrection, the apostles used the term much more freely, as I Corinthians ch. 15 shows.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Bindi

[Jonesboy]

It's not really relevant to any part of the discussion, but I will respond to this sentence first, just because it bugs me.

 

In John 1:41, John the Baptist (who was always having to deny that HE was the Christ), pointed out Jesus to some of his disciples. Two of them followed Jesus, figured out who he was, and one of them (Andrew) went and told his brother (Simon Peter), " 'We have found the Messias', which is, being interpreted, the Christ. " (If he'd been speaking Hebrew or Aramaic he would have said "We have found the Messiah". If he'd been speaking Greek, he would have said "We have found the Christ".)

 

In Luke 4:41, the devils that he cast out of people acknowledged him as "Christ the Son of God". He told them not to tell anybody.

 

In John 4:25-26, Jesus told the woman at the well in Samaria that he was the Christ. In verses 29 and 42, the Samaritans testified that he was the Christ, so they also knew early.

 

In John 10:24-25, the Jews said "Look, stop playing games with us. If you're the Christ, tell us plainly." And he answered "I already did, but you didn't believe me."

 

In Matt 16:16, Peter answers Jesus' "Whom say ye that I am?" query with "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." First quoted usage. This is some time before his trial and crucifixion. Four verses later he warns his disciples not to tell anybody he's "Jesus the Christ".

 

In Matt 22:42, he asks the Pharisees almost the same question he asked Peter: "What think ye of Christ? Whose son is he?" The ensuing response suggests that the Pharisees didn't know him as the Christ.

 

In Matt 26:63-68, in his trial before Caiaphas the high priest, Caiaphas asks him directly if he is the Christ. Jesus admits that he is, and they mock him because they don't believe him. (see also Mark 15:32; Luke 23:35, 39)

 

In Luke 23:2, the people take him before Pilate, and one of their accusations is that Jesus was "saying that he himself is Christ a King".

 

After his resurrection, the apostles used the term much more freely, as I Corinthians ch. 15 shows.

Thank you for those quotes.

 

Now if you would go through them and look at when each of those was written.

 

For instance. The Gospel of John was written by three different authors over a period of 200 years. EDIT: I may have been off a few years but close. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_John#Historical_reliability

 

The gospel identifies its author as "the disciple whom Jesus loved." Although the text does not name this disciple, by the beginning of the 2nd century, a tradition had begun to form which identified him with John the Apostle, one of the Twelve (Jesus' innermost circle). Although some notable New Testament scholars affirm traditional Johannine scholarship, the majority do not believe that John or one of the Apostles wrote it,] and trace it instead to a "Johannine community" which traced its traditions to John; the gospel itself shows signs of having been composed in three "layers", reaching its final form about 90–100 AD

 

The Gospel of Matthew https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Matthew: Most scholars believe the Gospel of Matthew was composed between 80 and 90 CE, with a range of possibility between 70 to 110 CE. A pre-70 date remains a minority view. The anonymous author was probably a male Jew, standing on the margin between traditional and non-traditional Jewish values, and familiar with technical legal aspects of scripture being debated in his time. Writing in a polished Semitic "synagogue Greek", he drew on three main sources, the Gospel of Mark, the hypothetical collection of sayings known as the Q source, and material unique to his own community, called "Special Matthew", or the M source.

 

The Gospel of Luke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Luke:The majority view is that Luke the Evangelist, the companion of Paul, was not the author of Luke-Acts. The anonymous author took for his sources the gospel of Mark, the sayings collection called the Q source, and a collection of material called the L (for Luke) source; the most probable date is around 80-100 CE, and there is evidence that it was still being substantially revised well into the 2nd century.

 

Not trying to start anything Bindi. Just my view that when you see anything that say's Christ in the bible it was put there by the church.

 

We can each believe how we wish.

 

Take care.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Jonesboy

[Jonesboy]

Maybe to get back to the topic of the Kingdom.

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

22. Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the (Father's) kingdom."

 

They said to him, "Then shall we enter the (Father's) kingdom as babies?"

 

Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

[dawei]

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