Carl jung and eastern thought

[Karl]

very revealing post on your part. sad that you come to this conclusion because you lack the capacity to understand great minds like freud or jung. hint, they are still be studied intensely. their books are still being read.

what did you ever write that has reached a level of theirs?

 

As long as you enjoy it I'm good with that. It isn't for me.

I dispute it reached any particular level. People read all sorts of rubbish. It's my opinion you can take it or leave it.

[Nikolai1]

Is there any thinkers who do inspire you Karl?

[Karl]

Is there any thinkers who do inspire you Karl?

 

There have been a great many. I don't cling to books, but occasionally I reference them. Sometimes there are diamond in the rough as it were. I'm not minded to agree with everything either in in books by some of the thinkers that inspire me, neither do I throw out nuggets of brilliance from those I strongly dislike. I've got so many books on the go, from historical accounts, politics, philosophies. I'm writing my second book, so really I should spend more time on that.

 

Currently Ludwig Von Mises treaties 'Human Action'

Most anything by Albert J Nock, Murray Rothbard, Bastiat, John Taylor Gatto, Rand.

 

If I had the language skills I would like to read the classics Aristotle, Plato etc as they were written.

[zerostao]

rand, plato, aristotle,,well that explains it for me. i shouldve known.

glad to read that you are writing. perhaps it's not totally hopeless for you.

you're writing plenty here on this forum, thanks for sharing and giving it all for free.

[Karl]

rand, plato, aristotle,,well that explains it for me. i shouldve known.

glad to read that you are writing. perhaps it's not totally hopeless for you.

you're writing plenty here on this forum, thanks for sharing and giving it all for free.

 

No you were right the first time-completely hopeless. :-) well my wife and mother are enthralled with it so far. They get annoyed when I don't work on it. Caught my mother after she sneaked up to the office to have a crafty read. She disappeared for an hour. Keeps asking me to tell her what's next. They are both avid readers of decent authors so that's possibly a good sign. There again I might not finish it.

[ChiForce]

Give it up Karl...you are more and more acting like a troll.  We are talking about Carl Jung, not another debates about what is emptiness and etc.  Frankly, your rationalization and psychologicalization do not interest me much. 

 

You didn't read his works.  I read ALL, I mean ALL, of his works, including his lectures on dissecting the Nietzsche phenomena.  Do you know what that is???

 

Carl Jung was stuck in an age when men were living a life lacking spiritual meanings.  Not surprised since the early 1900s was a very traumatic period in the human history with wars and genocides, and old govts and societies were being dismantled...when west met east resulting in colonization of the human race.

 

He discovered that the human archetype is universal and they manifested in myths.  What is the human archetype?  The individualization of the Self.....the hero's path to enlightenment and liberation.  These archetypes manifest themselves in our dreams across cultures.  Like I said, if your mind is still dreaming about sex, you aren't ready for Carl Jung.  In fact, you aren't ready for ANY spiritual cultivations.  

 

Please, stop trolling....No, you don't know anything but you think you do...    

Edited July 23, 2015 by ChiForce

[Karl]

Give it up Karl...you are more and more acting like a troll.  We are talking about Carl Jung, not another debates about what is emptiness and etc.  Frankly, your rationalization and psychologicalization do not interest me much. 

 

You didn't read his works.  I read ALL, I mean ALL, of his works, including his lectures on dissecting the Nietzsche phenomena.  Do you know what that is???

 

Carl Jung was stuck in an age when men were living a life lacking spiritual meanings.  Not surprised since the early 1900s was a very traumatic period in the human history with wars and genocides, and old govts and societies were being dismantled...when west met east resulting in colonization of the human race.

 

He discovered that the human archetype is universal and they manifested in myths.  What is the human archetype?  The individualization of the Self.....the hero's path to enlightenment and liberation.  These archetypes manifest themselves in our dreams across cultures.  Like I said, if your mind is still dreaming about sex, you aren't ready for Carl Jung.  In fact, you aren't ready for ANY spiritual cultivations.  

 

Please, stop trolling....No, you don't know anything but you think you do...    

 

Dreaming about sex ? I dream about dreaming about dreaming about sex. Mostly it's lawn mowers and travel programmes. The only cultivation I've done was planting some taties and a couple of deciduous bushes.

 

 

 

I stick to my opinion. Archetypes........roars with laughter.

[ChiForce]

Dreaming about sex ? I dream about dreaming about dreaming about sex. Mostly it's lawn mowers and travel programmes. The only cultivation I've done was planting some taties and a couple of deciduous bushes. I stick to my opinion. Archetypes........roars with laughter.

There...you are a troll...and wasting our time.  You know nothing.....  BTW, if you keep on trolling, I will report you to the moderator....

Edited July 23, 2015 by ChiForce

[Karl]

There...you are a troll...and wasting our time.  You know nothing.....

 

I can say unequivocally that I do not know no thing.

 

I don't do troll. I gave my opinion, if you don't like it tough doo doo. I still love you Chi :-)

[Nungali]

All your words are the words of one stuck in emptiness.

 

Yes, there is something fake about the barbeque.

 

But the fun others have is genuinely felt.

 

You need to hold both in view and just go with the flow. Discerning the flow is discerning the ethical. The ethical is not being a killjoy at berbecues.

 

 

BBQ apron anyone ?

 

[Nungali]

Karl;

 

You might have got a better response if you actually said why you find Jung psychotic and a rambling manic-depressive, instead of saying that you read some of his writings a long time ago and cant remember  exactly why you thought this.

 

the conclusion I came to is that his experiences and his analysis of his experiences are  quiet common and well documented by many individuals, in diverse cultures across time and locations. 

 

Certain modern 'western'  mind sets are quiet removed from these processes and seem out of the field of comprehension for many and are kept in a 'Pandora's Box' ... and not talked about 'in polite company'  or outright denied.   This leads to bigger problems. 

 

One cultures 'spirit guide' or 'daemon'  is another's crackpot psychotic   (and I would say there is more chance of them becoming a crackpot psychotic in a culture that denies and does not understand such experience ... it is part of the overall human experience ... raging against it doesn't make it go away or invalidate  those experiences.

[Nungali]

There...you are a troll...and wasting our time.  You know nothing.....  BTW, if you keep on trolling, I will report you to the moderator....

 

 

 

 

 

[Bud Jetsun]

Words are constructs that are subject to both the authors and the readers inherently subjective and relative interpretation of connotation and denotation.  

 

If words could convey truth, we could simply write "be oneness" or "Be" and we wouldn't need forums like this, everyone could just read a few words and enjoy the bliss of liberation. 

 

This makes the best a book can hope to be an arrangement of delusional construct stacking. 

 

For this reason, you can't look for perfect wisdom or truth or reality in anyone's words, because they are a medium lacking that capacity, no matter the composers intellect or state of awareness of reality.

 

If someone reads some words written by Jung, or spray painted on a subway wall by a hooligan, and the combination of delusional constructs is perceived in a way that aids in nourishing someone's own realization, they were the right words for that persons realization at that time.   

 

That is the most words can hope to be.  If a reader chooses to confuse Truth with the droplets of ink on paper, this is an error on the part of the reader. 

 

If someones book as something that triggers realization of the nature of reality, it was a useful and good book, even if that realization came in the form of recognizing the author's own misconceptions. 

 

Perhaps it's best not to judge anyone's writing, as it ultimately can only be a reflection of judging ourselves. 

 

With unlimited Love,

-Bud

[ChiForce]

 

 

 

I am not the only one who feels this way.     This is Tao Bum and I expect our discussions are loosely based in Taoism or Eastern thoughts, and somewhat more intelligent.

 

This thread is a perfect example. Shooting Carl Jung as Newage.  Hell, he made his name during the early 1930s.  That's nothing newage about his psychology.  Few of his posts he offered his opinions but I didn't detect anything he wrote loosely resembling or mentioning anything about Carl Jung's psychology.  Collective unconscious?  The archetype?  The persona or the mask?  Individualization?  Why he is different than Freud?  His idea that Nietzsche as a prophet of an age without Christianity?  Christian Agnosticism?  Carl Jung became the medicine man of the west, at least, during his life time.  

Edited July 24, 2015 by ChiForce

[dawei]

After 39 posts, I can't say I've learned anything about Jung and eastern thought...  well, except a link to a 227 page PDF.   

 

I've wondered about Jung myself and so why not just discuss the person and his ideas on eastern thought.

 

I found these as a start:

 

article: The Difference Between Eastern and Western Thinking by C.G. Jung

 

Youtube: Alan Watts - A Critique of Carl Jung, Seeing Through the Game

 

article: How Indian Philosophy Influenced Jung

 

Background:  

Jung identified four major archetypes 

 

  (youtube)

 

I've not watched any of these... but found them in less than 5 minutes to share 

[ChiForce]

After 39 posts, I can't say I've learned anything about Jung and eastern thought...  well, except a link to a 227 page PDF.   

 

I've wondered about Jung myself and so why not just discuss the person and his ideas on eastern thought.

 

I found these as a start:

 

article: The Difference Between Eastern and Western Thinking by C.G. Jung

 

Youtube: Alan Watts - A Critique of Carl Jung, Seeing Through the Game

 

article: How Indian Philosophy Influenced Jung

 

Background:  

Jung identified four major archetypes 

 

  (youtube)

 

I've not watched any of these... but found them in less than 5 minutes to share 

You really have to read several of his works and maybe his biography to really understand him.  To see where he is coming from and why he is so different from Freud. 

 

Looking back right now, his thinking and his philosophy are useful for those who are seeking a spiritual path but coming from a troubled life history.  When I was reading his works, I came up to several passages that described my mental conditions at that time...when I was dealing with my childhood experiences, and how I was being treated by my peers in school and college.  He explained why it ought to happen...because of the hero's archetype...all heroes must undergo a dark period in order to emerge as a champion of the Self.  His thinking and his works affirmed my life struggles..in which no one cared in my immediate surrounding.  The realization was so tremendous that I felt like a new person and feeling very empowered.  You must realize that as a result of reading his works, I was consciously liberated.  Not long after, I was spiritually liberated by experiencing my first Kundalini energry rising or the MCO, spontaneously.    FYI, without him, Joseph Campel would not exist.  Without him, we would have no George Lucas and his Star Wars.....hehehehhe....   

 

For those who are already on the path, some of his eastern thoughts may appear very simplistic and not in depth enough.   

[ChiForce]

Definitely pickup the Two Essays on Analytical Psychology.  The Carl Jung's Letters are a bit rare to buy nowadays...hehehe..

 

[Nungali]

Not to mention the books his own society didnt want published   

 

    

 

 

From Wiki :

 

 

" Biographers and critics have disagreed in the past as to whether these years in Jung's life should be seen as, "a creative illness, a period of introspection, a psychotic break, or simply madness."  Anthony Storr, reflecting on Jung's own judgment that he was "menaced by a psychosis" during this time, concluded that the period represented a psychotic episode. According to Sonu Shamdasani, Storr's opinion is untenable in light of currently available documentation.

 

During the years Jung engaged with his "nocturnal work" on Liber Novus, he continued to function in his daytime activities without any evident impairment  He maintained a busy professional practice, seeing on average five patients a day. He lectured, wrote, and remained active in professional associations. Throughout this period he also serviced as an officer in the Swiss army and was on active duty over several extended periods between 1914 and 1918, the years of World War I in which Jung was composing Liber Novus. Jung was not "psychotic" by any accepted clinical criteria during the period he created Liber Novus. Nonetheless, what he was doing during these years defies facile categorization.

 

Jung referred to his imaginative or visionary venture during these years as "my most difficult experiment." This experiment involved a voluntary confrontation with the unconscious through willful engagement of what Jung later termed "mythopoetic imagination".  In his introduction to Liber Novus, Shamdasani explains:

"From December 1913 onward, he carried on in the same procedure: deliberately evoking a fantasy in a waking state, and then entering into it as into a drama. These fantasies may be understood as a type of dramatized thinking in pictorial form.... In retrospect, he recalled that his scientific question was to see what took place when he switched off consciousness. The example of dreams indicated the existence of background activity, and he wanted to give this a possibility of emerging, just as one does when taking mescaline."

Jung initially recorded his "visions", or "fantasies, or "imaginations" — all terms used by Jung to describe his activity — in a series of six journals now known collectively as the    "

 

[ now it gets juicy ]

 

" "Black Books".This journal record begins on 12 November 1913, and continues with intensity through the summer of 1914; subsequent entries were added up through at least the 1930s..Biographer Barbara Hannah, who was close to Jung throughout the last three decades of his life, compared Jung's imaginative experiences recounted in his journals to the encounter of Menelaus with Proteus in the Odyssey. Jung, she said, "made it a rule never to let a figure or figures that he encountered leave until they had told him why they had appeared to him.

 

~  These are the writings that most consider define him as psychotic himself.

 

The same people would probably define a shaman the same way .

[Nikolai1]

I believe I'm right in saying that a huge portions of his letters are still not in the public domain. For some reason his family do not want them published. If the red book got published then I cannot imagine what might be in the letters!

[Nikolai1]

Jung considered Man to be essentially spiritual in his true nature. At no point in history has that been a view easy to understand. He will always be a strange outsider, but to those who 'get' him he will be tremendously important.

[Karl]

Karl;

 

You might have got a better response if you actually said why you find Jung psychotic and a rambling manic-depressive, instead of saying that you read some of his writings a long time ago and cant remember  exactly why you thought this.

 

the conclusion I came to is that his experiences and his analysis of his experiences are  quiet common and well documented by many individuals, in diverse cultures across time and locations. 

 

Certain modern 'western'  mind sets are quiet removed from these processes and seem out of the field of comprehension for many and are kept in a 'Pandora's Box' ... and not talked about 'in polite company'  or outright denied.   This leads to bigger problems. 

 

One cultures 'spirit guide' or 'daemon'  is another's crackpot psychotic   (and I would say there is more chance of them becoming a crackpot psychotic in a culture that denies and does not understand such experience ... it is part of the overall human experience ... raging against it doesn't make it go away or invalidate  those experiences.

 

Yes, that's true, but I didn't and you said it for me and better than I could.

[Karl]

You really have to read several of his works and maybe his biography to really understand him.  To see where he is coming from and why he is so different from Freud. 

 

Looking back right now, his thinking and his philosophy are useful for those who are seeking a spiritual path but coming from a troubled life history.  When I was reading his works, I came up to several passages that described my mental conditions at that time...when I was dealing with my childhood experiences, and how I was being treated by my peers in school and college.  He explained why it ought to happen...because of the hero's archetype...all heroes must undergo a dark period in order to emerge as a champion of the Self.  His thinking and his works affirmed my life struggles..in which no one cared in my immediate surrounding.  The realization was so tremendous that I felt like a new person and feeling very empowered.  You must realize that as a result of reading his works, I was consciously liberated.  Not long after, I was spiritually liberated by experiencing my first Kundalini energry rising or the MCO, spontaneously.    FYI, without him, Joseph Campel would not exist.  Without him, we would have no George Lucas and his Star Wars.....hehehehhe....   

 

For those who are already on the path, some of his eastern thoughts may appear very simplistic and not in depth enough.   

 

Good points. There is something for everyone. I found it had the opposite effect. Maybe I shouldn't be so critical-if it works it works. I think my beef is with those that say it worked for them and therefore should be applied to the entire world in as if it was a panacea.

 

I'm not sure Star Wars exists because of him, there has always been a sense of demon and angel; like and dark, God and Devil, Wizards and Sorcerers. I don't think Jung ever mentioned the millennium falcon, though I suspect he would have had a lot to say about the light sabre.

[Nikolai1]

The frustrating thing here Karl is it seems you won't be able to say anything about Jung other than that you don't like it. Can you try and justify your position a bit more?

[Karl]

The frustrating thing here Karl is it seems you won't be able to say anything about Jung other than that you don't like it. Can you try and justify your position a bit more?

 

I cannot, it's bound between two book ends. I studied many therapeutic techniques between the time I took the NLP practitioner course and reading Jung. Then I read so much more after that time. I have an impression that's all. It's like something that tasted bad, it just did, I don't store away the thoughts at that time-they just clog up my mind.

 

My reaction was a quiet revulsion that anyone would utilise his works beyond the framework of the pages- kind of 'what happened in Vegas stays in Vegas'. I've witnessed people who should have been given jobs, lose the opportunity, completely through Jungian analysis and it was ultimately my responsibility for firing the jungian rifle.

 

Probably I should not have been so hasty and yet I was. It was an instantaneous 'NO-STOP'.

 

 

 

[Nikolai1]

I should say that Jung's Psychological Types are not at all central to his work.  He wrote the book very early in his career, and for me it seems a stand alone contribution.  And God knows what fools have grabbed hold of it since...

 

I would recommend the Jung of Jungianism.  The process of Individuation is the key concept.  Try again and see if it speaks to you.