Xian Tian Fusion - Can anyone describe it?

[MooNiNite]

Xian Tian Fusion

 

 

This is described by some as an attainment where one experientially merges with their primordial self (assuming they arn't already) a form of enlightenment/awakening. 

 

It is supposed to be a conscious attainment beyond the mind expansion attributes of Shen cultivation. 

 

 

Maybe.

 

What is it? How can it be described?

 

[Daeluin]

Perhaps chapter 9 of Holding Yin, Embracing Yang (tl: Eva Wong) describes this pre-celestial [xian tian] coagulation in a concise way:

 

 

Different types of medicines are used in the pre- and post-celestial procedures.

 

First, post-celestial kan and li are used to build the foundation of the pill, while the pre-celestial kan and li are used to strengthen the foundation of the pill. Second, post-celestial lead and mercury are used in creating the lesser pill, and mercury and pre-celestial lead are used in the return of the great pill to the dantien. The return of the great pill to the dantien is the highest level of cultivation, which includes refining the self for three years to recover original nature [yuan xing] and facing the wall for nine years. Third, post-celestial kan and li are involved in facilitating the copulation of the primodial spirit [yuan shen] and the primordial vapor [yuan qi], building the foundation of the pill, and realizing the lesser medicine. In contrast, pre-celestial kan and li are involved in facilitating the copulation of true yin and true yang, strengthening the foundation of the pill, and realizing the greater medicine. Fourth, post-celestial lead and mercury are heated in the golden cauldron to create the external medicine called lead. When the waterwheel turns, the flow of the pearl drops can be controlled. These drops are non other than the internal mercury. When lead and mercury embrace, the lesser pill will emerge. Pre-celestial lead and mercury are the essences of yin and yang that combine to produce the earth element of the celestial stem wu. The earth of wu is the external lead. When the fire stops, the earth of wu will merge with the earth of the celestial stem ji. The earth of ji is the internal mercury. when external lead and internal mercury are introduced to each other, the great pill will return to the dantien.

 

When the lesser pill is heated and refined, the belly will be full and you will feel as if intoxicated. Engage the microcosmic circulation during the time of zi and wu, and gather and accumulate gradually.  When lead and mercury follow your command, the yin cinnabar grains will materialize. After the great pill has coagulated and the fire in the furnace has become red hot, add the fire of the external furnace, increasing and decreasing the heat when necessary. In time the lead will dry, the mercury will appear, and the yang cinnabar grains will materialize.

 

In refining the self and recovering original nature, you need to use the yin cinnabar grains to produce the yang cinnabar grains. Internally you must preserve generative energy and strengthen vital energy. Externally you must forget the self in the midst of worldly dust. Only in this way can body and mind be secure and safe. The three years of incubation is involved with the production of the yang cinnabar grains. The nine years of facing the wall is concerned with recovering life, nourishing the yang cinnabar grains, circulating the pill nine times, and returning it to the dantien. When everything is dissolved and extinguished in stillness, the primordial spirit [yuan shen] will be able to take on corporeal forms in endless transformations.

[MooNiNite]

Perhaps chapter 9 of Holding Yin, Embracing Yang (tl: Eva Wong) describes this pre-celestial [xian tian] coagulation in a concise way:

thanks, iv been told numerous times to read her books. 

 

It desn't sound like she is describing a fusion, but more of a refinement process

Edited July 24, 2015 by MooNiNite

[Daeluin]

Yes, refining, and then coagulating, fusing different components together, more refining, more fusing.

 

What character are you using for "fusion"? Does it have other translations?

 

Eva has translated a lot of great neidan classics.

[MooNiNite]

THere is a 

 

Yes, refining, and then coagulating, fusing different components together, more refining, more fusing.

 

What character are you using for "fusion"? Does it have other translations?

 

Eva has translated a lot of great neidan classics.

 

 

There is a quote from Lu Dogbin's tablet that I am having trouble with.

 

 

When energy returns, elixir spontaneously crystallizes,

In the pot pairing water and fire.

 

(Lines 9-10)

 

The first line is referring to the lower dantien being cultivated, this is more easily understood because of the direct chinese translation. However the second line i am unclear on. I believe it has to do with the Kan and Li being mentioned. Do you understand the second line? And maybe what the "pot" or couldron being referred to is? 

[Daeluin]

Have you read the commentaries by Chang San Feng and Liu I-ming? Both are translated by Thomas Cleary in Vitality, Energy, Spirit.

 

I imagine the second line is referring to:

Third, post-celestial kan and li are involved in facilitating the copulation of the primordial spirit [yuan shen] and the primordial vapor [yuan qi], building the foundation of the pill, and realizing the lesser medicine. In contrast, pre-celestial kan and li are involved in facilitating the copulation of true yin and true yang, strengthening the foundation of the pill, and realizing the greater medicine.

 

I don't know if you've seen this post on kan and li. Generally kan and li want to go in different directions, but when the fire is brought into the lower dan tien to heat the water, qi is created. Following this principle kan and li may rejoin and revert back to qian and kun. Then Qian and Kun join to one another, Yin and Yang become the One Breath, and the Great Ultimate becomes whole and complete.

 

And the pot/cauldron likely refers to Steadying the Furnace and Setting up the Cauldron, where cauldron represents depth of sincerity. Liu Yiming's commentary notes that these are internal components already present and need not be sought externally.

 

Also - Foundations if Internal Alchemy by Wang Mu, translated by Fabrizio Pregadio has one of the simplest explanations of these transformations.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Daeluin

[voidisyinyang]

Do u daeluin have any more corroboration that primordial nature is yuan jing? I thought primordial nature is what taoist yoga book calls essential nature as the first half of the training, the lunar yuan shen activated thru the tai chi. So the lower tan tien as the dragon cavity is replenished with yuan jing so that the yuan qi is activated in the middle tan tien as the mysterious pass manifesting the tai chi of the cavity of original spirit, the upper tan tien. What's the difference between precelestial fire and water and yuan shi and yuan qi. Isn't yuan qi the yang in the yin of the water and yuan shen is the yin within the yang fire of the heart.

[MooNiNite]

Have you read the commentaries by Chang San Feng and Liu I-ming? Both are translated by Thomas Cleary in Vitality, Energy, Spirit.

 

I imagine the second line is referring to:

Third, post-celestial kan and li are involved in facilitating the copulation of the primordial spirit [yuan shen] and the primordial vapor [yuan qi], building the foundation of the pill, and realizing the lesser medicine. In contrast, pre-celestial kan and li are involved in facilitating the copulation of true yin and true yang, strengthening the foundation of the pill, and realizing the greater medicine.

 

I don't know if you've seen this post on kan and li. Generally kan and li want to go in different directions, but when the fire is brought into the lower dan tien to heat the water, qi is created. Following this principle kan and li may rejoin and revert back to qian and kun. Then Qian and Kun join to one another, Yin and Yang become the One Breath, and the Great Ultimate becomes whole and complete.

 

And the pot/cauldron likely refers to Steadying the Furnace and Setting up the Cauldron, where cauldron represents depth of sincerity. Liu Yiming's commentary notes that these are internal components already present and need not be sought externally.

 

Also - Foundations if Internal Alchemy by Wang Mu, translated by Fabrizio Pregadio has one of the simplest explanations of these transformations.

Interesting post. 

Do you know what location on the body that kan and li come together?

[Daeluin]

Do u daeluin have any more corroboration that primordial nature is yuan jing?

 

I don't see "yuan jing" mentioned anywhere else.

 

I thought primordial nature is what taoist yoga book calls essential nature as the first half of the training, the lunar yuan shen activated thru the tai chi. So the lower tan tien as the dragon cavity is replenished with yuan jing so that the yuan qi is activated in the middle tan tien as the mysterious pass manifesting the tai chi of the cavity of original spirit, the upper tan tien.

 

Something like that. "Essential Nature" is xing.

 

 

What's the difference between precelestial fire and water and yuan shi and yuan qi. Isn't yuan qi the yang in the yin of the water and yuan shen is the yin within the yang fire of the heart.

 

 

Interesting post.

Do you know what location on the body that kan and li come together?

 

I wrote a detailed reply to both of these questions, but it got too complicated for my liking. Ultimately Liu Yiming sums it up:

 

 

Alas! "Understanding this by means of Spirit depends on each person." How could Kan and Li be easy to know?

 

Eva Wong's translation of Zhung Lu Chuan Dao Ji in The Tao of Health, Longevity, and Immortality provides lots of details in regards to fire, water, lead mercury, the internal and external medicines, and the reverted (lesser) and greater exlirs.

 

Eva Wong's translation of the Dragon Tiger Classic provides a more specific and detailed look at these exact interactions.

 

Wang Mu's Foundations of Internal Alchemy (tl Fabrizio Pregadio) provides a picture that describes the formation and creation of the Internal and External Medicines, and the Reverted and Great Elixir, in greatly simplified concepts.

 

And Liu Yiming's Cultivating the Tao (tl: Fabrizio Pregadio) provides detailed theory and discussion of principles.

 

All four of these books support each other nicely from different perspectives. They offer a very detailed description of what happens and where it happens. However it is left for the reader to puzzle out, and can leave one very confused, even though the actual procedure is simple. If one is deeply sincere, one might be able to discover the answers on one's own.

 

I've been studying these books for a few years now, and am coming to some clarity on their meanings. I also have the good fortune of studying with a teacher who has lead me to feel many of these transformations internally. Without these experiences I would have a much more difficult time finding clarity in these texts.

 

That said, if I am able to get enough clarity to describe it in simple terms, I'll do so. Liu Yiming's talk on the different placements of the furnace and cauldron/tripod answer MooNiNite's question, and so the location is different depending on the stage. And Innersoundqigong's answer is actually somewhat important, and hidden in the operation of the dragon and tiger.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Daeluin

[MooNiNite]

This seems overly complicated. Diagrams would prove useful. 

[Daeluin]

What's the difference between precelestial fire and water and yuan shi and yuan qi. Isn't yuan qi the yang in the yin of the water and yuan shen is the yin within the yang fire of the heart.

 

OK, so what I'm getting is that kan and li are related to the creation and refinement of the qi and jing, and are related to the taiji. Yuan Xing and Yuan Shen are the same thing, and are related to wuji. The shen is everywhere, and if there is desire it will not be deeply integrated internally, and the jing and qi will dissipate. When there is no desire and the shen is focused internally, yuan xing is recovered, qi and jing are brought forth and refined, and in the complicated process of the interaction of post and pre-celestial kan and li, eventually the merging of shen with qi and jing helps the taiji unfold into the wuji.

 

This seems overly complicated. Diagrams would prove useful.

 

The intro to Eva Wong's Dragon Tiger Classic has some diagrams, but I find that without understanding the text, these diagrams are just as complicated. The exact interaction of the components of kan and li is explained in very circular terms, and I'm sorry but I am still not able to fully connect every part of the texts, and I want to avoid the trap of thinking I know when I do not.

 

Remember, these transformations share the same root as chinese medicine. Studying acupuncture is very complicated, and is largely related to working with the manifest functioning of the body. Neidan works to cultivate the formless, bring the formless through the form, and returns the form to the formless. Thus it works to reverse the steps that created the manifest form of the body. How could this be called simple? When the whole is divided, parts need names. In returning to the root, one only needs to sincerely guard unity, and this is simple. If one wishes to study the parts, this is complicated.

 

If one has worked in the past to become ready for these transformations, it will be easy to find a teacher, methods, and clarity, simply by increasing and maintaining one's sincere focus on studying and cultivating tao. If one's destiny is not as close to being ready for this transformation, the sincerity will be more difficult to maintain, clarity more difficult to come by, true teachers more difficult to find, and the sacrifices necessary for one to attain success will be more severe. Thus if one tries to accomplish the goals of neidan but is unable to make the necessary sacrifices and maintain the necessary sincerity, one's progress without proper clarity will very likely result in one not achieving the tao, and will artificially shape one's karma so that next time around it will be more difficult to orient oneself in the right direction. If this were to be the case, it would be better for one to simply cultivate a pure heart and follow where that heart leads - next time one will be much closer to attaining the tao. Hence the reason the texts are written in coded terms, and the reason true teachers will not openly reveal the secrets to those who haven't cultivated their destiny to an appropriate place. These days the secrets are easy to come by, but even more easily misunderstood. These days people are full of ego and selfish, bemoaning the secretive nature of teachers and methods, even though these teachers simply wish to prevent harm coming to those who are not able to hear.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Daeluin