Temple style Taiji Quan

[Longtimepractioner]

I practice Chen style consistently, but long ago I learned the "traditional" Yang Chengfu form and I keep it up because I teach it to newcomers, most of whom are senior citizens..  However, when I teach Yang style I use the aforementioned "Temple Style Training" (though I don't call it that) by breaking down the form into individual movements and putting them together as people progress.  A lot of the Yang Chengfu form is similar to Waysun's form, so the method translates well.  Some things, like Deflect Downward, Parry, Punch (DDPP) are very different and more closely resemble Chen style.  DDPP is obviously a simplification of the Chen style "Deliver the Hammer".

 

I don't start out with Chen style because it is too difficult for most adults to understand the smaller circles and coordination of movement with tan tien, life gate, open qua, crown point, sinking and draining, etc..  It is often hard enough just to get people to shift their weight properly;  people seem to be pretty much unaware of their own movement.

 

I have a pretty mixed bag of Chen background, as I have actually learned two similar versions of the long small frame Chen form from a "traditional" Chen family lineage, and I learned a version from a guy whose teachers learned from Feng Zhiqiang.  I have also learned the Cannon Fist form, but I don't recommend it to beginners because of its emphasis on fajin, which, if not learned properly, can lead to some bad habits and even injure your joints.  And I have been to seminars with Chen Xiao Wong - I even had beers with him one evening!

 

You'll see that I use the word "traditional" in quotes.  I have learned three Yang style forms, all supposedly "traditional" and all different, though filled with similarities.

 

Long ago I learned the linkage exercises, substantializing and other exercises that Domingo Tui taught.  Domingo was, early on, associated with Waysun, but he disappeared for a while then reappeared with some important information that Waysun was not teaching.  Then he disappeared again.  I heard he had some sort of family tragedy, but I don't have any details.  Ask JP if he knows anything about Domingo.

[dwai]

8 hours ago, Longtimepractioner said:

I practice Chen style consistently, but long ago I learned the "traditional" Yang Chengfu form and I keep it up because I teach it to newcomers, most of whom are senior citizens..  However, when I teach Yang style I use the aforementioned "Temple Style Training" (though I don't call it that) by breaking down the form into individual movements and putting them together as people progress.  A lot of the Yang Chengfu form is similar to Waysun's form, so the method translates well.  Some things, like Deflect Downward, Parry, Punch (DDPP) are very different and more closely resemble Chen style.  DDPP is obviously a simplification of the Chen style "Deliver the Hammer".

 

I don't start out with Chen style because it is too difficult for most adults to understand the smaller circles and coordination of movement with tan tien, life gate, open qua, crown point, sinking and draining, etc..  It is often hard enough just to get people to shift their weight properly;  people seem to be pretty much unaware of their own movement.

 

I have a pretty mixed bag of Chen background, as I have actually learned two similar versions of the long small frame Chen form from a "traditional" Chen family lineage, and I learned a version from a guy whose teachers learned from Feng Zhiqiang.  I have also learned the Cannon Fist form, but I don't recommend it to beginners because of its emphasis on fajin, which, if not learned properly, can lead to some bad habits and even injure your joints.  And I have been to seminars with Chen Xiao Wong - I even had beers with him one evening!

 

You'll see that I use the word "traditional" in quotes.  I have learned three Yang style forms, all supposedly "traditional" and all different, though filled with similarities.

 

Nice 

8 hours ago, Longtimepractioner said:

Long ago I learned the linkage exercises, substantializing and other exercises that Domingo Tui taught.  Domingo was, early on, associated with Waysun, but he disappeared for a while then reappeared with some important information that Waysun was not teaching.  Then he disappeared again.  I heard he had some sort of family tragedy, but I don't have any details.  Ask JP if he knows anything about Domingo.

Yes JP has mentioned Domingo to us. Said he was pretty good but stopped going to WL’s school. 

 

 

[Mudfoot]

On 2016-01-03 at 3:54 AM, GreytoWhite said:

After doing some research it seems that this style of taijiquan is powered by White Crane mechanics. The swallow and spit part of the curriculum kinda gave it away. I checked and Liao Weishan was one of the few who brought Fujian Shaking Crane to Taiwan. It's a fairly common thing for groups in Taiwan to use a White Crane engine to power their taiji frame. 

Like Yang Jwing-Ming. 

IF I remember right, his entire book on "taiji chin-na" turned out being a book about White Crane techs. 

And Bruce Frantzis makes a big thing on the difference between "swallow and spit" which he claims is a Shaolin method, while taiji is supposed to use a method where you can do both at the same time. 

 

Been some time though, so I have forgotten the details of that discussion. 

[dwai]

17 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

Like Yang Jwing-Ming. 

IF I remember right, his entire book on "taiji chin-na" turned out being a book about White Crane techs. 

And Bruce Frantzis makes a big thing on the difference between "swallow and spit" which he claims is a Shaolin method, while taiji is supposed to use a method where you can do both at the same time. 

 

Been some time though, so I have forgotten the details of that discussion. 

Guys...there is no white crane in Temple style as I have been taught it. Nothing against White Crane.

 

I prefer to take the words of my teachers, whom I know and have practiced with for years, over the words of someone who's had no contact with the lineage in the past 38 years. Can any one point out what part of Temple Style "power generation" comes from White Crane? Who even knows how Temple Style power generation works?

 

There is no Chin na in Temple style. 

 

Like Fabie pointed out in an earlier post, "Swallow and spit" is there in many martial arts....

Yes, in Taiji swallow and spit happen at the same time if you want. In the beginning stages you have to learn how to take in and then expel the incoming energy. 

 

[GreytoWhite]

Eh, I got no horse in this race. Focusing on bagua - no interest in taiji any more.

[Michael Sternbach]

On 2.5.2018 at 11:02 PM, Mudfoot said:

Like Yang Jwing-Ming. 

IF I remember right, his entire book on "taiji chin-na" turned out being a book about White Crane techs. 

 

It's probably more accurate to say that his Chin'na books contain a mixture of both White Crane and Taiji techs.

 

In practice, telling them apart may be difficult anyway, because there are only so many ways that the human body can move, notwithstanding the fact that aforementioned two arts are fairly closely related to each other.

 

To illustrate, when I first watched a demonstration of Chin'na in a Chinese Kung Fu movie so many years ago, I was amazed by its similarity to Aikido, which I was studying at the time.So

 

Essentially the same holds true for the methods of power generation employed in different 'soft' styles, and Jwing Ming Yang emphasizes this somewhere in regards to Taiji and White Crane (the latter being considered a 'hard-soft' style).

 

On 2.5.2018 at 11:02 PM, Mudfoot said:

And Bruce Frantzis makes a big thing on the difference between "swallow and spit" which he claims is a Shaolin method, while taiji is supposed to use a method where you can do both at the same time. 

 

Been some time though, so I have forgotten the details of that discussion. 

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

On 3.5.2018 at 4:20 PM, dwai said:

Guys...there is no white crane in Temple style as I have been taught it. Nothing against White Crane.

 

I prefer to take the words of my teachers, whom I know and have practiced with for years, over the words of someone who's had no contact with the lineage in the past 38 years. Can any one point out what part of Temple Style "power generation" comes from White Crane? Who even knows how Temple Style power generation works?

 

No, I am not familiar with your particular style of Taiji. But I don't think it could be totally different from, say, Yang style methods.

 

Furthermore, it is apparent to me that different South Chinese styles (including Wing Chun, White Crane and Five Ancestors Fist) are related not only to each other, but also to the Wudang arts such as Taiji. Regardless of historical details in any particular case.

 

Talking about the latter, it just amazes me how often even very advanced practitioners and masters of a particular art lack knowledge of its true history, while accepting fanciful fables at face value. Sure enough, there are plenty of cases in which it is next to impossible to really ascertain the facts.

 

And I don't mean this personally in any way. As I said, I don't know anything about Temple style Taiji and its history. It's just a general observation.

 

On 3.5.2018 at 4:20 PM, dwai said:

There is no Chin na in Temple style. 

 

That sounds weird. Virtually all Chinese arts contain Chin'na techniques, at the very least codified in their forms.

 

Would you mind sharing your style's history, as it has been passed down to you? Including its relations to other styles, if possible.

 

On 3.5.2018 at 4:20 PM, dwai said:

Like Fabie pointed out in an earlier post, "Swallow and spit" is there in many martial arts....

Yes, in Taiji swallow and spit happen at the same time if you want. In the beginning stages you have to learn how to take in and then expel the incoming energy. 

 

 

[dwai]

18 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

No, I am not familiar with your particular style of Taiji. But I don't think it could be totally different from, say, Yang style methods.

It is not inner door wise. 

 

Quote

And I don't mean this personally in any way. As I said, I don't know anything about Temple style Taiji and its history. It's just a general observation.

 

 

That sounds weird. Virtually all Chinese arts contain Chin'na techniques, at the very least codified in their forms.

Temple style doesn’t rely on or teach chin Na. It is about application of the jins only. 

Quote

Would you mind sharing your style's history, as it has been passed down to you? Including its relations to other styles, if possible.

 

 

Temple style is a very subtle art, and it’s main edict is to become empty. Empty out physical strength, the mind and personality. It’s main goal is spiritual development via martial skill, and  not martial skill for the sake of martial skill. 

 

So chin Na happens to backfire on the applicator of it, against a good taiji player. But not because he/she can outmaneuver the chin Na person, but rather because the taiji person doesn’t operate from a physical level. 

 

My master told me that power development is a gate we have to walk through so we can boost spiritual efficacy.

 

history wise, my research shows that temple style actually comes from the San Shi Qi style of taiji, as developed by Xu Xuanping 

Edited May 6, 2018 by dwai

[Michael Sternbach]

8 hours ago, dwai said:

It is not inner door wise. 

 

Okay.

 

8 hours ago, dwai said:

Temple style doesn’t rely on or teach chin Na. It is about application of the jins only. 

 

Chin'na is also applying the jins.

 

8 hours ago, dwai said:

Temple style is a very subtle art, and it’s main edict is to become empty. Empty out physical strength, the mind and personality. It’s main goal is spiritual development via martial skill, and  not martial skill for the sake of martial skill. 

 

That sounds like it's more of a method of meditation  than a real martial art.

 

8 hours ago, dwai said:

So chin Na happens to backfire on the applicator of it, against a good taiji player. But not because he/she can outmaneuver the chin Na person, but rather because the taiji person doesn’t operate from a physical level. 

 

Usually, folks who try to operate from a non-physical level against an experienced MMA fighter (or someone like that) have their ass handed to them. Not to say that it isn't possible in principle, though.

 

8 hours ago, dwai said:

My master told me that power development is a gate we have to walk through so we can boost spiritual efficacy.

 

That makes sense to me.

 

8 hours ago, dwai said:

history wise, my research shows that temple style actually comes from the San Shi Qi style of taiji, as developed by Xu Xuanping 

 

You mean it goes back to the 'thirteen pillars' exercise?

[Michael Sternbach]

Weary of playing 'Push Hands' with me, Dwai?

 

But if you don't mind another round, let me ask you: To what end does Temply style Taiji 'apply the jins only'? Some jins are clearly linked to Chin'na in other styles, e.g. 'coiling jin'.

 

Even fa-jin ('explosive force' for you non-iniates out there) is frequently used in Chin'na, especially if the intention is to quickly incapacitate an enemy by ripping a joint or a neck apart...

 

Something I guess you guys would never do, though, as you climb up the ladder to lofty spiritual realms.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Michael Sternbach

[dwai]

31 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Weary of playing 'Push Hands' with me, Dwai?

Who me?  Never...

31 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

But if you don't mind another round, let me ask you: To what end does Temply style Taiji 'apply the jins only'? Some jins are clearly linked to Chin'na in other styles, e.g. 'coiling jin'.

Ive done hard style karate and aikido (specialize in joint locks), so qinna is not alien to me. In temple style I’ve asked my teachers many years ago about qinna, when I was more enamored by martial prowess. I was told “there’s no need for qinna”. I agree with that assessment. 

 

This video does a good job of showing why...pretty much for the same reasons.

 

 

31 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Even fa-jin ('explosive force' for you non-iniates out there) is frequently used in Chin'na, especially if the intention is to quickly incapacitate an enemy by ripping a joint or a neck apart...

 

The more peaceful way to end a fight is to knock someone out. As one progresses to higher rungs of prowess, the presence itself can deter violent alterations. 

 

I  have had no desire to destroy anyone’s joints (even though I know how to), so it’s a moot point imho. 

31 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Something I guess you guys would never do, though, as you climb up the ladder to lofty spiritual realms.

It’s more like we have to shed the baggage of fear-based approaches to grow spiritually. If we stay stuck in existential angst when there’s no need for it, our growth will be stymied at that level. This is of course my 2 cents worth  

 

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Who me?  Never...

Ive done hard style karate and aikido (specialize in joint locks), so qinna is not alien to me. In temple style I’ve asked my teachers many years ago about qinna, when I was more enamored by martial prowess. I was told “there’s no need for qinna”. I agree with that assessment. 

 

This video does a good job of showing why...pretty much for the same reasons.

 

 

I once watched that entire video. I recall how the "attacker" neglected to try and break Mizner's balance before applying the lock. Anyway, I agree, it's difficult to get a good Taiji fighter - or an MMA fighter, for that matter - into an arm lock.

 

Applying them on mere mortals, there are many situations in which such techniques come in handy though - especially if you need to control an individual without seriously hurting them. They're just ideal for family meetings on Christmas!

 

Quote

The more peaceful way to end a fight is to knock someone out. As one progresses to higher rungs of prowess, the presence itself can deter violent alterations. 

 

Yes, I did that on some occasions.

 

Quote

I  have had no desire to destroy anyone’s joints (even though I know how to), so it’s a moot point imho. 

 

I just brought it up to illustrate that the application of jins isn't necessarily something different from using Chin'na. I am still not sure what you meant by "the application of the jins only." Striking? Pushing? Transforming the opponent into a toad? 

 

Quote

It’s more like we have to shed the baggage of fear-based approaches to grow spiritually. If we stay stuck in existential angst when there’s no need for it, our growth will be stymied at that level. This is of course my 2 cents worth  

 

Of course.

 

I am not talking about action based on fear. I just think you should have all kinds of different tools at your disposal. Even if you can do without the sledge hammer in most situations, it's better to have it and not to need it, than to need it and not to have it.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Michael Sternbach

[dwai]

19 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

I once watched that entire video. I recall how the "attacker" neglected to try and break Mizner's balance before applying the lock. Anyway, I agree, it's difficult to get a good Taiji fighter - or an MMA fighter, for that matter - into an arm lock.

 

Applying them on mere mortals, there are many situations in which such techniques come in handy though - especially if you need to control an individual without seriously hurting them. They're just ideal for family meetings on Christmas!

 

 

Yes, I did that on some occasions.

 

 

I just brought it up to illustrate that the application of jins isn't necessarily something different from using Chin'na. I am still not sure what you meant by "the application of the jins only." Striking? Pushing? Transforming the opponent into a toad? 

Why is qinna a requirement for classical taiji fajin? 

We can use Long power to bounce someone away 10-20 feet. Or use short power to stun them/break bones if needed. 

 

 

19 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Of course.

 

I am not talking about action based on fear. I just think you should have all kinds of different tools at your disposal. Even if you can do without the sledge hammer in most situations, it's better to have it and not to need it, than to need it and not to have it.

I understand. I used to think like that too...and those tools are long power, Short power and Cold power. Nothing else is needed. For control it is sticking (Na) power. For neutralizing, Hwa. 

[dwai]

Master Liao's teachings are now streaming online. Here's a set of free videos on Martial application.

 

https://www.taichitao.tv/programs/martial-art-tips-sample-pack-free

 

This one has some demonstration of how Taiji ball/the field of Qi (Jin) can be applied --

 

https://www.taichitao.tv/cce/34660?admin_view=&chapter_id=126709

Edited May 15, 2018 by dwai

[Joolian]

Thank you for the links - found it very interesting. 

 

Have you any or can you recommend any of Liao's DVDs?

 

Greetings,

Julian

[dwai]

5 hours ago, Joolian said:

Thank you for the links - found it very interesting. 

 

Have you any or can you recommend any of Liao's DVDs?

 

Greetings,

Julian

Depends on what you know really. They are all good, if you are a beginner. I'd start with the single form DVDs. After you get that,  there's one on Charge up, compress and draining that a mainstay of my practice regimen, so that I'd recommend. 

[dwai]

Here's an excellent resource for learning Condensing breathing in the Temple style tai chi tradition --

 

https://www.taichitao.tv/programs/course-how-condensing-breathing-creates-jing-power-advanced

 

[escott]

On 7/12/2019 at 10:47 AM, dwai said:

Here's an excellent resource for learning Condensing breathing in the Temple style tai chi tradition --

 

https://www.taichitao.tv/programs/course-how-condensing-breathing-creates-jing-power-advanced

 

 

Is this different from the method that Gary Clyman teaches in his YouTube videos?

[dwai]

8 hours ago, escott said:

 

Is this different from the method that Gary Clyman teaches in his YouTube videos?

It’s more advanced. I don’t watch clyman stuff and if you follow him you’ll become sick. He’s a fraud. 

Edited July 14, 2019 by dwai

[escott]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

It’s more advanced. I don’t watch clyman stuff and if you follow him you’ll become sick. He’s a fraud. 

 

That's what I figured, but I wanted to hear your opinion. I understand there is a price to pay for good teaching. Wayson Liao's online material seems a bit expensive, though. Temple Style teaching is hard to find. Do you think someone could get started by reading Master Liao's book, Tai Chi Classics?

 

I've been teaching myself Mantak Chia's Tai Chi Chi Kung 13 Movement Form from the book, The Inner Structure of Tai Chi. I'm really liking it and want to do more tai chi. But, I don't just want to dance. I want something/someone that teaches the neigong, too. Loretta Wollering hints about it in the Internal Gardens videos I've watched. Maybe I'll start with her, she seems very well grounded (unlike Clyman). It's just not Temple Style... Question, is it easier to learn Temple Style if you already know Yang style?

[dwai]

4 hours ago, escott said:

 

That's what I figured, but I wanted to hear your opinion. I understand there is a price to pay for good teaching. Wayson Liao's online material seems a bit expensive, though. Temple Style teaching is hard to find. Do you think someone could get started by reading Master Liao's book, Tai Chi Classics?

 

You should start with Master liao’s single form series. The Online course is not very expensive. The dvds were more expensive iinm.

 

4 hours ago, escott said:

I've been teaching myself Mantak Chia's Tai Chi Chi Kung 13 Movement Form from the book, The Inner Structure of Tai Chi. I'm really liking it and want to do more tai chi. But, I don't just want to dance. I want something/someone that teaches the neigong, too. Loretta Wollering hints about it in the Internal Gardens videos I've watched. Maybe I'll start with her, she seems very well grounded (unlike Clyman). It's just not Temple Style... Question, is it easier to learn Temple Style if you already know Yang style?

Yang style and temple style are similar. But if you learn the single form series you don’t need to do the dance. And after you go beyond the physical level it becomes Neigong with advanced teachings based on the exact same forms. 

[windwalker]

15 hours ago, escott said:

 

That's what I figured, but I wanted to hear your opinion. I understand there is a price to pay for good teaching. Wayson Liao's online material seems a bit expensive, though. Temple Style teaching is hard to find. Do you think someone could get started by reading Master Liao's book, Tai Chi Classics?

 

I've been teaching myself Mantak Chia's Tai Chi Chi Kung 13 Movement Form from the book, The Inner Structure of Tai Chi. I'm really liking it and want to do more tai chi. But, I don't just want to dance. I want something/someone that teaches the neigong, too. Loretta Wollering hints about it in the Internal Gardens videos I've watched. Maybe I'll start with her, she seems very well grounded (unlike Clyman). It's just not Temple Style... Question, is it easier to learn Temple Style if you already know Yang style?

 

 

What markers do you use to know if your correct or not. 

 

asked out of curiosity 

 

 

 

 Anything can be learned depending on ones level before starting which only means that  they'er already

close with out the addition of the new knowledge. 

Edited July 15, 2019 by windwalker

[escott]

@dwai can you comment a little about what is going on here? How is this different from other tai chi? In the comments there is mention of some condensed breathing going on, how can this be identified?

 

 

[dwai]

8 hours ago, escott said:

@dwai can you comment a little about what is going on here? How is this different from other tai chi? In the comments there is mention of some condensed breathing going on, how can this be identified?

 

 

Looks like an ok rendition of the long form, which is essentially the Chen man Ching long form with a few variations. 

 

I don't feel this person was well “connected” in terms of flow. 

 

Temple style long form is a way to test if we can take the flow and connectedness of the single forms into a single “long form”, with no interruptions. Like a river flowing, no stops, no interruption of flow. 

 

Condensing breathing is internal, it is hard to detect from a video. However the flow is easier to detect. It could very well be that this person was trying to do condensing breathing as part of the practice. 

 

[dwai]

 

.

Edited July 16, 2019 by dwai
Taking the video down. Those who had to see must’ve already seen