Longevity or Immortality . . . But Not Both (?)

[Lataif]

I put my QiGong teacher on the spot and asked her specifically whether, in general, practices that lead to immortality do so at the cost of a shorter physical life span.

 

She admitted that they do.

 

I'd read as much in certain literature . . . and my own personal experience seemed to tend that way.

 

But it's the first time I could get it confirmed so explicitly.

 

What do other people hear from their teachers/traditions (?)

[SonOfTheGods]

I put my QiGong teacher on the spot and asked her specifically whether, in general, practices that lead to immortality do so at the cost of a shorter physical life span.

 

She admitted that they do.

 

I'd read as much in certain literature . . . and my own personal experience seemed to tend that way.

 

But it's the first time I could get it confirmed so explicitly.

 

What do other people hear from their teachers/traditions (?)

 

First one must clearly define "Immortality"

 

Otherwise- longevity and Immortality consummate each other fine

 

Speaking on Neidan- Longevity is a side effect (a good one!) due to optimal health, and Immortality is what transpires at death

 

The Soul transits into the body at the moment of conception through the Chong Mai and exits through the Chong Mai at death.

 

The Chong Mai also serves as a portal for the body's Hun

 

Now it is a matter of clarifying which "Immortal status" is chosen for the cultivator

[ChiForce]

Is she a legit chi kung master?  Is a non-duality answer.  Your immortality would manifest in heavenly realm because you have become one of the Taoist immortals..because of your cultivation achievement and accomplishment.  This in turn, these highly realized beings would manifest themselves in others' dreams in order to guide those who are worthy.    Your body may or may not live long.  Rest assured, you would have commands of your body.  Generally, illness and sickness should not trouble you.  When you are ready to leave this world, you could do it at will.  

 

If you follow the Tibetan esoteric Buddhism, your body would disappear with few traces left once your mind is ready to leave this world.        

Edited July 25, 2015 by ChiForce

[Jeff]

Practices that truly lead to immortality also increase the health (and life span) of the physical body. Such practices clear obstructions, issues and fears that can manifest as illness/disease in the body. The more broadly opened channels increase and improve vitality. Such practioners even look significantly younger then their actual years.

 

Best wishes.

[Lataif]

You can use Chi to build and maintain the physical body.

 

But it's that same Chi (even if in different form) that is used to build and maintain the immortal body.

 

At a certain point . . . it's one or the other. You use up some of the one . . . for some of the other.

[ChiForce]

You can use Chi to build and maintain the physical body.

 

But it's that same Chi (even if in different form) that is used to build and maintain the immortal body.

 

At a certain point . . . it's one or the other. You use up some of the one . . . for some of the other.

The Chi regulates itself.  You don't need to use extra work and it would cause slow changes in your body slowly.  Two, you can not have an immortal body without the birth of the immortal fetus.  Is not the either or.  It makes no sense.  You are too attached to the body.  It is the mind, the Tao mind, that give birth to immortality, the spirit.  The body will come and go regardless...   

[Jeff]

You can use Chi to build and maintain the physical body.

 

But it's that same Chi (even if in different form) that is used to build and maintain the immortal body.

 

At a certain point . . . it's one or the other. You use up some of the one . . . for some of the other.

 

If one is choosing, building or maintaining, then one is not refining...

 

Others enjoy the feast, but I am alone and wandering, drifting with the wind.

Open and yielding like a new born babe.

Innocent and simple, for I am nourished by the Great Mother of all thing,,

-TTC

 

Or if you prefer Buddhism...

 

On the air they rise

And fly an invisible course,

Gathering nothing, storing nothing.

Their food is knowledge.

They live upon emptiness.

-Dhammapada

 

[Lataif]

Jing is a good example.

 

The default in QiGong is to conserve it for longevity.

 

But if, instead, you transform Jing into Shen via extensive/intensive sexuality . . . you end up with less longevity and more immortality.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Lataif

[ChiForce]

Jing is a good example.

 

The default in QiGong is to conserve it for longevity.

 

But if, instead, you transform Jing into Shen via extensive/intensive sexuality . . . you end up with less longevity and more immortality.

Who is this Chi Kung master?  This duality thinking of the Tao....Hahahaha...  First, not all Jing are the same.  Jing conserved or retented from lusts and sexual desires can not be transmuted regardless how long you have been holding up.  Do a search here with people practicing semen retention and complaining about bad mood and depression.  Eventually, you would build up so much yang energy that you have to release it or feeling very agitated.  Only jing energy without any lusts and sexual desires can be transmuted to Chi and chi to shen.  When this happens, the microcosmic and macrocosmic orbits would be set in motions.  At this stage, when you meditate, the chi would naturally flow through all over your body with a sense of warm and micro vibrations.  In a higher level, you would hear your chakras vibrating as well.  At this level, the mind isn't separated from the body.  They are and the same.  There is no either or.    Of course, like doing endurance exercise, if you deliberately abuse and running down your body, you have to rest and recover.  If you meditate too extensively and feeling like in your head most of the times, you need to ground yourself.     

[thelerner]

The reality (as I see it) is we do see some Taoist living longer then average, 90's (w/ some outliers).  Go to a Taoist monastery, talk to hermits that's what you get but after that as far as longevity it get increasingly legendary.  Thus the oldest provable people are in there teens + 100, not looking great and from U.S and France. 

 

With immortality, it gets even fuzzier, unfortunately, ie your immortals tend to be from past generations and more like ghosts, ie we just don't see them walking around. 

 

The modern greats in Taoism and Yoga, who've dedicated there lives to there practice live healthier and a bit longer not amazingly so then your average Joe. 

[Lataif]

Hahahaha.

Your manners are not very good.

 

You should maybe talk to your teacher about that, because it doesn't reflect well on him/her having you as a student . . .

[ChiForce]

Your manners are not very good.

 

You should maybe talk to your teacher about that, because it doesn't reflect well on him/her having you as a student . . .

Hahahahahahahaha.....

 

Well, I have to ask him in my dreams then....hehehehe... 

[ChiForce]

The reality (as I see it) is we do see some Taoist living longer then average, 90's (w/ some outliers).  Go to a Taoist monastery, talk to hermits that's what you get but after that as far as longevity it get increasingly legendary.  Thus the oldest provable people are in there teens + 100, not looking great and from U.S and France. 

 

With immortality, it gets even fuzzier, unfortunately, ie your immortals tend to be from past generations and more like ghosts, ie we just don't see them walking around. 

 

The modern greats in Taoism and Yoga, who've dedicated there lives to there practice live healthier and a bit longer not amazingly so then your average Joe. 

Besides, it is not uncommon for people to live beyond 100.  It does not mean they are Taoist immortals.  If you can live through 200, yes, I would believe you.  Still, I can not see any Taoist immortals living through more than 100 and not feeling tired of the body.  If you can meditate without sleep and eating for months or years, why you need the body.  

[Tibetan_Ice]

Practices that truly lead to immortality also increase the health (and life span) of the physical body. Such practices clear obstructions, issues and fears that can manifest as illness/disease in the body. The more broadly opened channels increase and improve vitality. Such practioners even look significantly younger then their actual years.Best wishes.

.

 

 

...

Or if you prefer Buddhism...On the air they rise And fly an invisible course, Gathering nothing, storing nothing. Their food is knowledge. They live upon emptiness.-Dhammapada

You misrepresent Buddhism.

Try reading the Anatta sutra:

 

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/whatbudbeliev/115.htm

 

Anatta: The Teaching of No-Soul

 

The Buddha countered all soul-theory and soul-speculation with His Anatta doctrine. Anatta is translated under various labels: No-soul, No-self, egolessness, and soullessness.

 

To understand the Anatta doctrine, one must understand that the eternal soul theory _ 'I have a soul' _ and the material theory _ 'I have no soul' _are both obstacles to self-realization or salvation. They arise from the misconception 'I AM'. Hence, to understand the Anatta doctrine, one must not cling to any opinion or views on soul-theory; rather, one must try to see things objectively as they are and without any mental projections. One must learn to see the so-called 'I' or Sour or Self for what it really is : merely a combination of changing forces. This requires some analytical explanation.

 

The Buddha taught that what we conceive as something eternal within us, is merely a combination of physical and mental aggregates or forces (pancakkhandha), made up of body or matter (rupakkhandha), sensation (vedanakkhandha), perception (sannakkhandha), mental formations (samkharakkhandha) and consciousness (vinnanakkhandha). These forces are working together in a flux of momentary change; they are never the same for two consecutive moments. They are the component forces of the psycho-physical life. When the Buddha analyzed the psycho-physical life, He found only these five aggregates or forces. He did not find any eternal soul. However, many people still have the misconception that the soul is the consciousness. The Buddha declared in unequivocal terms that consciousness depends on matter, sensation, perception and mental formations and that is cannot exist independently of them.

 

Further, you imply in your first post that Buddhist practitioners can gain immortality and overcome old age, death and disease.

 

That is not what the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta says:

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/mendis/wheel268.html

 

 

Now, according to this teaching of No-self, wherein lies the responsibility, the hope and the possibility of enlightenment? As regards bodily form, we have no ultimate control over it. Even the Buddha and the arahants suffered bodily afflictions. Disease, decay and death cannot be prevented. The young die through accident or disease. Living brings in its trail all the signs of decay. Kamma alone decides the fate of this bodily form. All we can do in this present existence is to avoid the two extremes which the Buddha discarded, namely, indulgence and mortification. The rest will happen to the bodily form regardless of our interference.

 

If what you imply is true, why did the Buddha get old, sick and die?

You are talking out of your hat again...

Edited July 25, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[Jeff]

Hi TI,

 

I did not say that people do not grow old and die. I stated as you even quoted above...

 

Practices that truly lead to immortality also increase the health (and life span) of the physical body. Such practices clear obstructions, issues and fears that can manifest as illness/disease in the body. The more broadly opened channels increase and improve vitality. Such practioners even look significantly younger then their actual years.

 

Best wishes.

 

And I am sure that for his time period, Buddha probably looked much younger than other men of his comparable years.

 

More best wishes,

 

Jeff

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi TI,I did not say that people do not grow old and die. I stated as you even quoted above...And I am sure that for his time period, Buddha probably looked much younger than other men of his comparable years. :)More best wishes,Jeff

Buddha did not teach how to reach immortality through "refining" as you have stated. Buddha taught to abandon desires, and the desire for immortality is still a desire and a hinderence.

 

What business do you have pretending to support immortality, youthfulness and freedom from disease by quoting the Dhammapada?

[Cheshire Cat]

 

I put my QiGong teacher on the spot and asked her specifically whether, in general, practices that lead to immortality do so at the cost of a shorter physical life span.

 

[...]

 

This seems more an intuition than a traditional teaching.

I'm interested in hearing more about that (es. experience of the teacher, case-stories, etc...)

[Jeff]

Buddha did not teach how to reach immortality through "refining" as you have stated. Buddha taught to abandon desires, and the desire for immortality is still a desire and a hinderence.

What business do you have pretending to support immortality, youthfulness and freedom from disease by quoting the Dhammapada?

 

Meditation is the same as energy refining. Increasing mental clarity is the same as increasingly refined energy, just two sides of the same coin. Like being in a child in the family, some are closer to the father and some are closer to the mother, but it is all the same family.

 

The Dhammapada is an excellent piece, and I would highly recommend it to all. Here is another passage on the thread topic for the group...

 

In him there in no yesterday,

No tomorrow,

No today.

Possessing nothing,

Wanting nothing.

He is full of power.

Fearless, wise, exalted.

He has vanquished all things.

He sees by virtue of his purity.

He has come to the end of the way,

Over the river of his many lives,

His many deaths.

Beyond the sorrow of hell,

Beyond the great joy of heaven,

By virtue of his purity.

He has come to the end of the way.

All that he had to do, he has done.

And now he is one.

[idquest]

The reality (as I see it) is we do see some Taoist living longer then average, 90's (w/ some outliers).  Go to a Taoist monastery, talk to hermits that's what you get but after that as far as longevity it get increasingly legendary.  Thus the oldest provable people are in there teens + 100, not looking great and from U.S and France. 

 

With immortality, it gets even fuzzier, unfortunately, ie your immortals tend to be from past generations and more like ghosts, ie we just don't see them walking around. 

 

The modern greats in Taoism and Yoga, who've dedicated there lives to there practice live healthier and a bit longer not amazingly so then your average Joe. 

 

Even in the monasteries the physical longevity will likely result from healthy lifestyle and little exposure to pathogens. If monks live steady life, do exercises, don't belong to any of risk groups (sex, drugs, alcohole), they are likely to live longer just because of that without any qi in consideration.

 

The spiritual longevity is something else though. THere is quite a bit of claims on immortals appearing in dreams. Unfortunately, this is difficult to verify objectively.

 

For any task at hand you will need resourses. Physical longevity and spiritual longevity are of different goals and at some point these two goals will start to compete for resourses. So I think the OP (or his teacher) is correct. The somewhat calming thought will be that very few actually reach a stage in cultivation at which the goals will start to compete for resourses.

[Jeff]

If one is trying (desiring) to extend the life of their physical body, they are not on the path of an immortal.

[ChiForce]

Even in the monasteries the physical longevity will likely result from healthy lifestyle and little exposure to pathogens. If monks live steady life, do exercises, don't belong to any of risk groups (sex, drugs, alcohole), they are likely to live longer just because of that without any qi in consideration.

 

The spiritual longevity is something else though. THere is quite a bit of claims on immortals appearing in dreams. Unfortunately, this is difficult to verify objectively.

 

For any task at hand you will need resourses. Physical longevity and spiritual longevity are of different goals and at some point these two goals will start to compete for resourses. So I think the OP (or his teacher) is correct. The somewhat calming thought will be that very few actually reach a stage in cultivation at which the goals will start to compete for resourses.

It can't be competing since you have already said it. You don't need to be a Taoist immortal to live through 100 years.  Being a Taoist immortal does not rob you the ability to have a healthier body.  The effect is the reserved.  Go google sambhogakaya if you want to know what it means when highly realized beings begin to appear in your dreams.  

Edited July 26, 2015 by ChiForce

[ChiForce]

If one is trying (desiring) to extend the life of their physical body, they are not on the path of an immortal.

Hahahah..yes, is Taoism 101.....very fundamental.  And for what ends since a body is very limiting.   

[ChiForce]

I don't want to keep on beating a dead horse.  Go read the last 3 chapters here

http://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Taoist-Yoga-Alchemy-and-Immortality.pdf

 

It never talks about how to prolong the life of the body.  Immortality here is referring to the immortal fetus and its birth, is all shen and spirit.

Edited July 26, 2015 by ChiForce

[forestofclarity]

Personally, I don't think it is possible to become immortal. If we are not immortal already, how do we change our essential nature from a being limited in time and space to one that is not? No matter how many limited things we put together, combine, or transform, we will only end up with a set of limited things. 

 

This isn't to say that I believe we are limited beings in the first place, however. 

[Infolad1]

To keep this thread from further devolving, LOL! what Is everyone's exact definition of Immortality?

 

Not what you read In a book. Your definition.

 

No thing In the physical world lasts forever, that's the first thing. No thing is permanent.

 

Physical longevity is a side effect of these practices. So your teacher is misinformed.

 

The gross physical body's deterioration accelerates, due to lack of Real Yang Qi.

 

Increasing the amount of Yang Qi, reduces the deterioration, thus increasing longevity.

 

Slowing down the number of breathes per minute also slows down aging.

(Since slowing, and deepening of the breath activates Tai Hsi/Kevale Khumbhaka,

thus activating the Real Yang Qi, they manifest hand in hand with each other).

 

 

Animal                            Breathing rate,  breaths/min                 Life span,  years

 

Giant Tortoise                                        4                                              150 - 400

 

Shrew                                              140-170                                                1

 

House mouse                                   95-160                                              1.5-3

 

Monkey                                                32                                                 18-23

 

Dogs                                                  20-30                                              10-20

 

Man (NOT an Animal : )                       18                                                  50-70 (Higher Numbers due to Artificial Factors)

 

Important Note: Forcing the breath to slow doesn't do this. As a matter of fact, It's dangerous. 

The spirit slows down the breath on it's own, from hours of cultivation work.

 

The spirit knows what it's doing. You don't.  So just let It do It's thing.

The main thing you can do to activate this is PRACTICE. Build up to 2 hours a day, everyday,

over 5 years. This ends our PSA 

 

 

But never forget, you're just slowing the body's aging down. You're never going to stop It.

 

Now how long can you keep slowing it down? That's open to speculation, and debate at the moment,

not unless we have a couple of tech savy Immortals lurking on this thread. 

 

If you make It past 120, then let's talk.

 

Here's a picture, along with a testimonial from Michael P. McBride, of Cheng Yu Li:

 

 

This is an extremely valuable picture of Dr. Wu’s Daoist Aunt, Cheng Yu Li, the younger sister of Dr. Wu’s teacher, Master Du Xin Lin. She is currently 140 years old (1866-Present). Her longevity is a direct result of 133 years of persistent practice. Master Wu took me to visit her on Jan. 2, 2003. During this meeting; she emphasized the importance of the “Five Centers Facing Heaven”. She is living proof of this testimony.

 

- Michael P. McBride (**MOON FESTIVAL - Oct. 6, 2006**)

 

And then of course, there's Li Qingyun: The 250 year old man.

 

 

The Immortal: True Accounts of the 250-Year-Old Man, Li Qingyun

http://www.amazon.com/The-Immortal-Accounts-250-Year-Old-Qingyun/dp/1889633348

 

"In 1927, General Yang Sen invited Li Qingyun to Wanxian, China, to teach about health and longevity. Li Qingyun was reported to be 250 years old at the time, and his visit to Wanxian was big news. In 1970, Yang Sen compiled a book of his and other’s accounts of Li Qingyun, titled An Authentic and True Record of a 250-Year-Old Man, which Stuart Alve Olson started translating into English in 1982."

 

Are their ages accurate? Some say yes, others say no. Who knows.

 

Jing is in every cell of the physical vehicle. The jing (endocrine system/enzymatic system substances) in the

gonads (testes in men, ovaries In women) are just the most visible barometer for measuring jing levels in the body,

that's all.

 

As others here have said Lataif, it's not either or. All Immortality is, is survival of the memories, and personality

after death. It has nothing to do with the physical bodies (of which the gross physical body is one). These are 

all mind created. Every thing is Mind, noumena, mental. Beyond that is no thing, Consciousness, which is immaterial.

 

And even then, if you haven't gotten back to no thing, you only maintain consciousness for as long as you have enough

divine spirit (Shen) to do so. Like a star.

 

That's why the various ancient texts talk about maintaining consciousness for MILLIONS of years, in the various heavenly realms, and STILL having to come back here.

 

I concur with what I believe Chi Force said. You don't want to get to wrapped up In thinking In terms of bodies.

That's a MAJOR trap.

 

Finally, you NEVER get rid of desire. You just SUBLIMATE the desire. We must be clear about this. 

 

de·sire

dəˈzī(ə)r/Submit

 

noun

1.a strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen.

   "a desire to work in the dirt with your bare hands"

 

synonyms: wish, want, aspiration, fancy, inclination, impulse; More

 

verb

1.strongly wish for or want (something).

"he never achieved the status he so desired"

 

synonyms: want, wish for, long for, yearn for, crave, hanker after, be desperate for, be bent on, covet, aspire to; More

 

 

So, everyone here desires to cultivate. They desire to become one with the Tao, True Nature, etc.

 

Desire is movement. Motion. External motions = Emotions.

 

We're just elevating the frequency (purity) of the desire. Of the movement. But it's still a desire.

 

As the kids these days say, don't get It twisted.

 

We're all playing an RPG here. Even having your character not move, it's still doing something. 

 

We really have to be clear about what we're doing, for the traps on the road are many.

 

Cheers!