Longevity or Immortality . . . But Not Both (?)

[Infolad1]

Personally, I don't think it is possible to become immortal. If we are not immortal already, how do we change our essential nature from a being limited in time and space to one that is not? 

EXACTLY! Someone who gets It. Kudos to you.

 

You're already Marvelman. You just have to remember your word of power, to transfer your

memories,  personality, and sphere of awareness back to your Super Saiyan body. Which is already there,

and which you already are.

 

Cheers!

[dawei]

I put my QiGong teacher on the spot and asked her specifically whether, in general, practices that lead to immortality do so at the cost of a shorter physical life span.

 

She admitted that they do.

 

Immortality practices can consume the body faster... 

[Tibetan_Ice]

Meditation is the same as energy refining. Increasing mental clarity is the same as increasingly refined energy, just two sides of the same coin. Like being in a child in the family, some are closer to the father and some are closer to the mother, but it is all the same family.The Dhammapada is an excellent piece, and I would highly recommend it to all. Here is another passage on the thread topic for the group...In him there in no yesterday, No tomorrow, No today. Possessing nothing, Wanting nothing. He is full of power. Fearless, wise, exalted. He has vanquished all things. He sees by virtue of his purity. He has come to the end of the way, Over the river of his many lives, His many deaths. Beyond the sorrow of hell, Beyond the great joy of heaven, By virtue of his purity. He has come to the end of the way. All that he had to do, he has done. And now he is one.

Perhaps you should have read the whole Dhammapada, or perhaps you read it but did not have the mental clarity nor the wisdom to understand what the Dhammapada is really saying.

 

Here is another part of the same text:

Old Age

The world is on fire!

And you are laughing?

You are deep in the dark.

Will you not ask for a light?

For behold your body -

A painted puppet, a toy,

Jointed and sick and full of false imaginings,

A shadow that shifts and fades.

How frail it is!

Frail and pestilent,

It sickens, festers and dies.

Like every living thing

In the end it sickens and dies.

Behold these whitened bones,

The hollow shells and husks of a dying summer.

And you are laughing?

You are a house of bones,

Flesh and blood for plaster.

Pride lives in you,

And hypocrisy, decay, and death.

The glorious chariots of kings shatter. So also the body turns to dust.

But the spirit of purity is changeless And so the pure instruct the pure.

The ignorant man is an ox.

He grows in size, not in wisdom. "Vainly I sought the builder of my house

Through countless lives.

I could not find him...

How hard it is to tread life after life! "But now I see you, O builder!

And never again shall you build my house.

I have snapped the rafters,

Split the ridgepole

And beaten out desire.

And now my mind is free."

There are no fish in the lake.

The long-legged cranes stand in the water.

Sad is the man who in his youth

Loved loosely and squandered his fortune -

Sad as a broken bow,

And sadly is he sighing

After all that has arisen and has passed away.

 

 

Now you claim that meditation is the refinement of energy, and that "increasing mental clarity is the same as increasingly refined energy".

Perhaps you could explain that concept for us.

Clarity, according to the Dhammapada is knowledge, it is wisdom, not some misunderstood metaphor of "refined energy".

 

But if you meditate

And follow the dharma

You will free yourself from desire.

"Everything arises and passes away."

When you see this, you are above sorrow.

This is the shining way.

"Existence is sorrow."

Understand, and go beyond sorrow.

This is the way of brightness.

"Existence is illusion."

Understand, and go beyond.

This is the way of clarity.

 

Quite frankly I'm surprised that you support that the body becomes more youthful and conquers old age. I would have thought that you would have brought up the rainbow body and the fact that the physical body shrinks and is consumed by its realization, not the other way around as you have stated.

 

So perhaps you could explain and defend your point of view, because I see no support for it in Buddhism.

[MooNiNite]

Why does everyone need a teacher?

 

And cultivation is the same as embodiment. Becoming the body causes one to heal. Becoming Alive. that is the goal, and that is immortality. 

 

Bodhidharma, highest level of cultivation/immortality, said to have lived 200 years. 

 

Jing converts to shen, but usually when Jing is full and and in a high reserve. 

 

Activating the fountain of youth is a good example of how immortality results in longevity.

 

On the other hand.

 

Many people use practices like sleep deprivation, pain infliction, and long hours of meditation. these can result in shorter lifespan in many cases. 

[MooNiNite]

EXACTLY! Someone who gets It. Kudos to you.

 

You're already Marvelman. You just have to remember your word of power, to transfer your

memories,  personality, and sphere of awareness back to your Super Saiyan body. Which is already there,

and which you already are.

 

Cheers!

 

Wrong. Gonna have to just disagree. Labeling yourself which is 1/100th of your true self. its like saying that the earth is a giant square. 

Edited July 28, 2015 by MooNiNite

[MooNiNite]

 

Quite frankly I'm surprised that you support that the body becomes more youthful and conquers old age. I would have thought that you would have brought up the rainbow body and the fact that the physical body shrinks and is consumed by its realization, not the other way around as you have stated.

 

So perhaps you could explain and defend your point of view, because I see no support for it in Buddhism.

 

four words, The fountain of youth. 

[Tibetan_Ice]

...

 

Bodhidharma, highest level of cultivation/immortality, said to have lived 200 years

 

...

 

Immortality means never dying, not taking a little longer to die...

[MooNiNite]

Immortality means never dying, not taking a little longer to die...

 

exactly, so...did he die when his physical body burst into light and nothing remained but a shoe?

Edited July 28, 2015 by MooNiNite

[Green Tiger]

I put my QiGong teacher on the spot and asked her specifically whether, in general, practices that lead to immortality do so at the cost of a shorter physical life span.

 

She admitted that they do.

 

And how would you characterize the difference between practices that lead to immortality and other practices?

[Brian]

exactly, so...did he die when his physical body burst into light and nothing remained but a shoe?

I have no expectation that my physical body will burst into light but I believe that I would choose to return to continue my journey and my work.

 

It has been suggested that I am here now because I already made that choice.

[Jeff]

Immortality means never dying, not taking a little longer to die...

 

Then we are definitely talking about a different concept of immortality. I was describing spiritual immortality (or beyond the physical body). I believe that was also obvious from my earlier posts. And as I have described in the earlier quotes, I would even go further and say that if one is actually pursueing physical immortality of the body, then they are not on a path that will lead them to (spiritual) immortality. Striving for physical immortality (or even "trying" to to live a longer life), is based in fear. Fear of death, is crossed relatively early in any advanced process.

 

Since we are both from a Christian background, I will leave you with these words from the gospels which specifically touch on the point (of immortality)...

 

Romans 8:6-17

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

 

[JinlianPai]

Cultivation is all about ming and virtue.

 

Nothing else.

[MooNiNite]

Cultivation is all about ming and virtue.

 

Nothing else.

 

Interesting, Can you describe Ming?

[MooNiNite]

I have no expectation that my physical body will burst into light but I believe that I would choose to return to continue my journey and my work.

 

It has been suggested that I am here now because I already made that choice.

 

Well that is supposed to be the highest attainment, Jesus's final. But with practice you have probably become aware of lower experiences? 

[Brian]

Higher versus lower? Heck! I am not certain about past versus future.

[Infolad1]

Wrong. Gonna have to just disagree. Labeling yourself which is 1/100th of your true self. its like saying that the earth is a giant square. 

 

It was an analogy MooNiNite. An example.

 

At the end of the day, all we're doing, and can do is give descriptions of The Self. And of course they're going to pale to the reality of Self. By it's very nature, it's beyond description. It is something to be experienced.

 

In this context, Marvelman works fine. Did you ever read it? Great work. Alan Moore's an amazing writer.

But i digress.

 

Let me know if you still disagree.

 

Cheers!

[Infolad1]

Then we are definitely talking about a different concept of immortality. I was describing spiritual immortality (or beyond the physical body). I believe that was also obvious from my earlier posts. And as I have described in the earlier quotes, I would even go further and say that if one is actually pursueing physical immortality of the body, then they are not on a path that will lead them to (spiritual) immortality. Striving for physical immortality (or even "trying" to to live a longer life), is based in fear. Fear of death, is crossed relatively early in any advanced process. Since we are both from a Christian background, I will leave you with these words from the gospels which specifically touch on the point (of immortality)... Romans 8:6-17 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

 

Longevity should just be a means to an end, which is the achievement of Spiritual immortality.

 

You've got to give the caterpillar enough time to change Into a butterfly. 

 

Any motive beyond that is fear based, as you stated Jeff.

 

Cheers!

 

P.S. Another good motive would be to take the time to teach others the way back, before you leave.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Infolad1

[MooNiNite]

Higher versus lower? Heck! I am not certain about past versus future.

 

Well you wouldnt be alive if you couldnt differentiate higher vs lower. The human body needs balance to maintain so one must make these basic observations through out all process. Such as eating for example. 

[MooNiNite]

It was an analogy MooNiNite. An example.

 

At the end of the day, all we're doing, and can do is give descriptions of The Self. And of course they're going to pale to the reality of Self. By it's very nature, it's beyond description. It is something to be experienced.

 

In this context, Marvelman works fine. Did you ever read it? Great work. Alan Moore's an amazing writer.

But i digress.

 

Let me know if you still disagree.

 

Cheers!

 

reminds me of a good quote by Alan M, that has to do with both immortality and longevity. 

 

“When we are doing the will of our true self, we are inevitably doing the will of the universe. In magic these are seen as indistinguishable. That every human soul is in fact the one human soul. It is the soul of the universe itself and as long as you are doing the will of the universe, then it is impossible to do anything wrong.”

-Alan Moore

[MooNiNite]

The idea is to reach a state of being that is beyond time and space. 

[Jeff]

Longevity should just be a means to an end, which is the achievement of Spiritual immortality.

 

You've got to give the caterpillar enough time to change Into a butterfly. 

 

Any motive beyond that is fear based, as you stated Jeff.

 

Cheers!

 

P.S. Another good motive would be to take the time to teach others the way back, before you leave.

 

Even acting to give yourself more time is based upon fear (of missing out) and a desire to "realize" something for oneself.  Such an approach is of the individual "ego".

[Brian]

Well you wouldnt be alive if you couldnt differentiate higher vs lower. The human body needs balance to maintain so one must make these basic observations through out all process. Such as eating for example.

I know lots of people with living physical bodies who give no conscious thought to differentiate between higher and lower in the foods they eat -- animals, too.

 

I do understand what you were after, though. I was just being difficult.

 

We make lots of judgements regarding quality, value, morality, ethics, efficacy, etc. As a general rule, those judgements are ill-informed and based on questionable wisdom but we make them nonetheless.

 

I am slowly remembering that I should be gentle in my judgements and willing to reconsider them when the opportunities present itself.

[Apech]

Even acting to give yourself more time is based upon fear (of missing out) and a desire to "realize" something for oneself.  Such an approach is of the individual "ego".

 

That's not strictly true, my teacher prolonged his life in order to serve, to teach more people and to create more expressions of truth.

[Jeff]

That's not strictly true, my teacher prolonged his life in order to serve, to teach more people and to create more expressions of truth.

 

Can you say who your teacher is?  And how did he/she prolong their life?

[Karl]

I have no expectation that my physical body will burst into light but I believe that I would choose to return to continue my journey and my work.It has been suggested that I am here now because I already made that choice.

Return from where?

Edited July 28, 2015 by Karl