Longevity or Immortality . . . But Not Both (?)

[Karl]

The world is not drawn with pen & ink, my friend. I nudge you because I hope to see you see tints and shades.

I am reminded of something...

When I was in college in the early '80s, I went to a Wizard of Oz party. A girl I knew was there and I was near her as the movie began on TV. I was dismayed to see tears on her cheeks after Dorothy dropped her house on the Wicked Witch of the East. I was totally at a loss and started to try to console or comfort her blindly.

No, she explained, I didn't understand. This was her favorite movie --her family made a ritual of watching it together each Autumn when it was broadcast on network TV as was the tradition in the States for so many years. Hers was a poor country family, however, and she had no idea that the movie was in color after Dorothy landed in Oz.

Ruby slippers, yellow brick road, Emerald City, horse of a different color -- all suddenly took on new meaning.

 

Are we going to argue coherently and logically this time? If you are going to go off into salmon and dogs I'm out-amusing though it was I much prefer George Carlin or Bill Hicks.

[allinone]

Do you really believe all this stuff as it is written ? The world is full of myths and legends, gods and immortals. Parse any civilisation or culture and it is riven with examples. Even in my home town we have a legend of a dragon killed by a great sword. This that was only a few centuries ago. Where the story came from and why it persists is unknown. Perhaps it's a metaphor ? But certainly we did not have fire breathing, flying lizards prowling the villages a few hundred years back. However the man who supposedly despatched the dragon lived a very sweet life from then on.

 

That hundred word inscription though is a different thing altogether, although the wording is somewhat strange - being and being can be interpreted in two senses and so there is equivocation. If it is, as I think it is intended, not as beings ( supernatural creature ) but just as 'being' then it makes perfect sense to me.

 

water is not logical thing. Nor fire, nor any other element.

Edited July 29, 2015 by allinone

[Karl]

water is not logical thing. Nor fire, nor any other element.

 

Well there isn't such a beast as a logical 'thing'. Man has the faculty of logic through conscious reasoning. The elements are grasped by that, as objective perceptual realities. They exist because they are existent.

[allinone]

Well there isn't such a beast as a logical 'thing'. Man has the faculty of logic through conscious reasoning. The elements are grasped by that, as objective perceptual realities. They exist because they are existent.

 

okay, what if things start to happen too fast then we start making decisions what are not very reasonable. So to take speed into account then from logic comes intelligence.

[Karl]

okay, what if things start to happen too fast then we start making decisions what are not very reasonable. So to take speed into account then from logic comes intelligence.

 

Things are happening fast and slow all the time. I don't understand 'too fast' unless it's contextual.

 

If you are saying is it possible to make a poor logical argument, permit certain fallacies, then yes that is certainly true. This forum abounds with it. Logic and intelligence are not necessarily one and the same. You can be as thick as mud like I am and still be an adequate logician, you can also be extremely intelligent in the way we mean it these days, but be a practical dunce where logic is concerned. Logic, though innate, must be earned.

[Brian]

Are we going to argue coherently and logically this time? If you are going to go off into salmon and dogs I'm out-amusing though it was I much prefer George Carlin or Bill Hicks.

This actually highlights the problem, Karl. I am not arguing with you. I am encouraging you to sail away from the shore. Sometimes I push too hard, though.

[Karl]

This actually highlights the problem, Karl. I am not arguing with you. I am encouraging you to sail away from the shore. Sometimes I push too hard, though.

I don't wish to sail anywhere, as there is no where to sail to, or from, so there is no problem. Neither do I wish you to sail anywhere unless that's your will. :-) either way is fine. We could discuss other things to take your mind off all these tasks you have found to do.

 

Once, I sailed far from the shore, so far that I ran out of sea and boat. Far enough out you get perspective. Then i saw it was an illusion all along.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Karl

[Brian]

I don't wish to sail anywhere, as there is no where to sail to, or from, so there is no problem. Neither do I wish you to sail anywhere unless that's your will. :-) either way is fine. We could discuss other things to take your mind off all these tasks you have found to do.

 

Once, I sailed far from the shore, so far that I ran out of sea and boat. Far enough out you get perspective. Then i saw it was an illusion all along.

Yes! And that which you sailed back to was also illusion. A comfortable and persistent illusion but illusion nonetheless.

[allinone]

Things are happening fast and slow all the time. I don't understand 'too fast' unless it's contextual. If you are saying is it possible to make a poor logical argument, permit certain fallacies, then yes that is certainly true. This forum abounds with it. Logic and intelligence are not necessarily one and the same. You can be as thick as mud like I am and still be an adequate logician, you can also be extremely intelligent in the way we mean it these days, but be a practical dunce where logic is concerned. Logic, though innate, must be earned.

 

Water is sticky, it slows things down, it smooths things out, it softens, it's female. It's enemy of logic.

 

if you try to use logic then you miss at least 50% of reality from start.

[dust]

Things are happening fast and slow all the time. I don't understand 'too fast' unless it's contextual. If you are saying is it possible to make a poor logical argument, permit certain fallacies, then yes that is certainly true. This forum abounds with it. Logic and intelligence are not necessarily one and the same. You can be as thick as mud like I am and still be an adequate logician, you can also be extremely intelligent in the way we mean it these days, but be a practical dunce where logic is concerned. Logic, though innate, must be earned.

 

I'm reminded of a story from my school days. On a school hiking trip, one of the most high-achieving, 'intelligent' boys in the year was chosen as his group leader, in charge of navigation.

 

After hours wandering around, now late to the meeting site, his group started questioning his navigation skills. He explained to them: "No, we'll get there. It's easy, really -- the N always points North, and the red arrow tells you where to go."

 

He ended up going to Oxford, and is apparently now a very rich man.

Edited July 29, 2015 by dustybeijing

[Karl]

Water is sticky, it slows things down, it smooths things out, it softens, it's female. It's enemy of logic.

 

if you try to use logic then you miss at least 50% of reality from start.

 

You can't help using logic, the issue is how well formed your logic is. You can't help standing on your legs, but if you don't work them or eat the right foods they will barely hold you up.

 

Logic is the tool of pure reality when used properly.

 

Enemy of logic ? Is it enemy of consciousness also ? We are physically bound with water, it is no enemy it is an objective reality. You have ascribed to water such things as you subjectively believe, but because of this you do not see it as I do. If you did, then there would be no requirement for pragmatism.

[Karl]

Yes! And that which you sailed back to was also illusion. A comfortable and persistent illusion but illusion nonetheless.

 

I didn't sail back. No boat, no water, no motion. I never went anywhere at all. I never have. That was the illusion.

I had to travel far enough to see that I didn't really travel at all.

Physically of course I travel all over, but I am always who I am.

[forestofclarity]

I think the example is backward. Longevity isn't against the flow of nature, it is with it. Most of the traditions I know say that longevity is a birthright, but that it is squandered largely through unhealthy living. 

 

Agreed. But in the example originally described, the person was specifically doing practices to extend their life beyond their natural time. They "desired" to have a longer life with practices that supported the desire and attachment with it. Such practices that support such personal desire are not in keeping with spiritual immortality (as described in the many texts).

[Jeff]

I think the example is backward. Longevity isn't against the flow of nature, it is with it. Most of the traditions I know say that longevity is a birthright, but that it is squandered largely through unhealthy living. 

 

Agreed. And that is what I had originally stated at the beginning of this thread...

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/38954-longevity-or-immortality-but-not-both/?p=637534

Practices that truly lead to immortality also increase the health (and life span) of the physical body. Such practices clear obstructions, issues and fears that can manifest as illness/disease in the body. The more broadly opened channels increase and improve vitality. Such practioners even look significantly younger then their actual years. Best wishes.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Jeff

[Apech]

Agreed. And that is what I had originally stated at the beginning of this thread...

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/38954-longevity-or-immortality-but-not-both/?p=637534

 

You appear to have reversed your position - and the processes involved in long life and immortality go well beyond clearing channels which is only the preliminary laying the foundation practice.

[Jeff]

You appear to have reversed your position - and the processes involved in long life and immortality go well beyond clearing channels which is only the preliminary laying the foundation practice.

 

No reversal in my position.  The issue relates to practices (and conscious self goal) that are specifically focused (and the related desire/fear) on extending life or avoiding physical death.  As stated from the beginning, advanced practitioners who are focused on ongoing removal of obstructions (or refinement of energy) get a healthier body for free.

[allinone]

You can't help using logic, the issue is how well formed your logic is. You can't help standing on your legs, but if you don't work them or eat the right foods they will barely hold you up. Logic is the tool of pure reality when used properly. Enemy of logic ? Is it enemy of consciousness also ? We are physically bound with water, it is no enemy it is an objective reality. You have ascribed to water such things as you subjectively believe, but because of this you do not see it as I do. If you did, then there would be no requirement for pragmatism.

 

water is what holds things together, so we gravitate towards it naturally because its comfy. So also your logic what feels to be right is because of water element.

[Apech]

No reversal in my position.  The issue relates to practices (and conscious self goal) that are specifically focused (and the related desire/fear) on extending life or avoiding physical death.  As stated from the beginning, advanced practitioners who are focused on ongoing removal of obstructions (or refinement of energy) get a healthier body for free.

 

 

Inner Alchemy or Neidan - a term often used synonymously with Qigong - is the Taoist art and science of gathering, storing and circulating the energies of the human body. In Inner Alchemy, our human body becomes a laboratory in which the Three Treaures of Jing, Qi, and Shen are cultivated, for the purpose of improving physical, emotional and mental health; and, ultimately, merging with the Tao, i.e. becoming an Immortal.

 

http://taoism.about.com/od/internalalchemy/a/Alchemy.htm

[Karl]

water is what holds things together, so we gravitate towards it naturally because its comfy. So also your logic what feels to be right is because of water element.

 

Our bodies a mostly made of it. It's wrapped up in consciousness in the material sense. There are many other compounds and elements contributing to the whole.

 

Logic is not 'feels' to be 'right'. It's the method we use to obtain objective information. It is neither right nor wrong. It just is.

[forestofclarity]

Have you met my friends Achilles and the Tortoise? 

 

http://www.ditext.com/carroll/tortoise.html

 

Logic is not 'feels' to be 'right'. It's the method we use to obtain objective information. It is neither right nor wrong. It just is.

[forestofclarity]

I don't see a significant difference between different types of energy. As for energy transmissions, in the Bible, the energy transmission is the second Baptism, or Baptism by fire (and with Holy Spirit). This is written about in Acts. Spirit is associated with both wind and breath, oddly enough, like prana and qi. Among certain Christian groups, this transmission is given through the laying on of hands, and many Pentecostals trace their source back to the original Apostles. 

 

 

You yourself who continually insults the Holy Spirit by calling it kundalini, who channels beings and gives light transmissions (not heeding what is written in the bible), does not have the understanding of the karma that you reap...please don't insult me by quoting the bible at me.

[Karl]

Have you met my friends Achilles and the Tortoise? 

 

http://www.ditext.com/carroll/tortoise.html

 

I hadn't come across it. I new Lewis Caroll was a logician and had posed a selection of storybook style logic paradoxes- I hadn't known about Zeno.

[thetaoiseasy]

Immortal cultivation is not a set of practices where you say: " I'm doing X, Y, Z.  I will fly away overnight!"  There is nothing you can put your finger on and call immortal practices.   Truly, if you are spiritually blocked, no practice or teacher will be able to help you. If you have clear vision, anything can help you achieve your high spiritual goal. 

 

The immortal pursuit is better described as a dynamic learning process. Living the Way, you live a little and learn a little.  You make a few mistakes but learn from them.  You experience new things daily and monthly,  slowly unfolding the potential that mother nature has bestowed.  

 

In this discovery process, you begin to understand the laws of the universe.  You will also understand the laws of your body, as they are the same. You can then manage yourself and your own health better.

 

If anything, the immortal practice removes separation.  It is not separate from longevity, nor is it separate from spiritual abilities.  It focuses on the integration of your mind, body, and spirit, rather than splintering them. It embraces wholeness.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Infolad1]

I don't see a significant difference between different types of energy. As for energy transmissions, in the Bible, the energy transmission is the second Baptism, or Baptism by fire (and with Holy Spirit). This is written about in Acts. Spirit is associated with both wind and breath, oddly enough, like prana and qi. Among certain Christian groups, this transmission is given through the laying on of hands, and many Pentecostals trace their source back to the original Apostles. 

 

Nothing odd at all, forestofemptiness.

 

Spirit is from the latin spirare, "breathe".

 

Spirit, kundalini, Orgone, Od, Vril, Great Spirit (Great Breath), Holy Spirit (Holy Breath/Whole Breath), Kundalini, Dambada Hwedo, Ki, Qi.

 

R-Complex (reptilian complex) of the brain is responsible for breathing. 

 

Reptile=serpent=Kundalini

 

It's all breath.

 

We people talk about spirits, they're talking about different breaths.

 

When you cross reference practices, and descriptions, everyone's talking about the same thing, but

thinking they're talking about something different (which is rampant with these practices, causing

a lot of unnecessary divisiveness, and anger). 

 

Breath is composed of gases. When Ionized, gas is plasma. That's what happens at higher practice stages.

 

Always trace the etymology of a word, not what someone says it is. Saves a lot of confusion.

 

Laying of hands = Emitting Qi out of the laogong points to heal people. I've done it a few times.

Once you build up enough Qi, just about anyone can do it.

 

A friend of mines had a detached retina. They were going to have to do major surgery on her. A group

of friends emitted Qi on her eye for an hour. 

 

She goes in the next day, and as the doctor's going over views of her retina they just did, he goes,

"Wait a minute. that's odd? "What?" she says. "Your retina has partially re-attached" he says, with this puzzled look on his face.

 

So he downgrades her surgery to a less intensive one, to finish the re-attachment, and her eye is perfectly

fine today.

 

East and West coming together to heal. It's a wonderful thing!

 

Cheers!

Edited July 29, 2015 by Infolad1

[Tibetan_Ice]

No reversal in my position. The issue relates to practices (and conscious self goal) that are specifically focused (and the related desire/fear) on extending life or avoiding physical death. As stated from the beginning, advanced practitioners who are focused on ongoing removal of obstructions (or refinement of energy) get a healthier body for free.

I guess Nisargadatta and Ramana were not advanced practitioners. They both died of cancer.

 

Somehow you have bought the whole "purification" trip where the removal of energetic obstructions is key to realization. You probably caught that concept at AYP and have been parroting it ever since. Where exactly in Buddhism or Dzogchen (apart from the lesser vehicle of tantra), do they mention that you have to clear obstructions? The Kati channel is not blocked, it is never blocked. One just has to learn the mechanism to activate the Boddhicitta (as defined in Dzogchen, not relative boddhicitta).

 

Again you are playing with energy. Without movement, there is no energy. In stillness there is no movement.