Tao not restricted to taoism

[LAOLONG]

The Tao reveal in everything, not only in Taoism, in all cultures and all religion. If it does not in everything it is not Tao.

[Marblehead]

I will agree with this within limitations.  There are many teachings that are contrary to the teachings of Tao.  That is to say, contrary to the Way of Tao.

[LAOLONG]

As i wrote in another post, the i ching hexagram number determinate the USA president with the same number. For example the 35 president was JFK read the i ching for hexagram 35 ,progress, and president 36 hexagram 36

[Marblehead]

I don't do the I Ching but the processes of "cause and effect" are very important in my life.

 

If we can find the causes we will be able to understand why things are the way they are.

 

I don't even believe predictions of future weather unless I can see logical reasons for the predictions.

[dawei]

I will agree with this within limitations.  There are many teachings that are contrary to the teachings of Tao.  That is to say, contrary to the Way of Tao.

 

that might be interesting to expand on

[Marblehead]

that might be interesting to expand on

Yeah, the concept I presented above can be viewed fron basically two different perspectives.

 

From the universal view, if something can be then it is within the realm of Tao.  That is to say, everything that is, is an aspct of Tao. So even those things that are contrary to the teachings of Tao are still Tao.

 

However, from the view of the Way of Tao, or Te, if you will, is where we find contrary teachings.  Te is natural movement, or rest, at any given point in time.  The Te (or Way) of Tao can never do anything at the wrong time or at the wrong place.

 

The way of man, however, is to rush things, to want to control things, to alter or destroy the natural order established by Tao.  In the long run we always fail, of course.

 

And to teach anything that is contrary to the processes of nature is not the Te of Tao.  It is the way of man.

 

 

We shall call this my opening statement.  I have no idea where to go with it.  Comments and/or questions would help a lot.

[Fate]

Everything is a manifestation of Tao, as the source of all things. I see that it encompasses all paths, all truths, all frequencies of the spectrum of energy.

 

This 'Way of Tao' gets into interesting territory. Trying to live in harmony with the Tao, where will one stand? Yes the TDJ says "surely it is contrary to Tao"

 

But how? Can't we only know what is Tao by what is not Tao?

 

Don't we have to walk the way of man to come back and see what the way of Tao is?

And thus, isn't this part of the unfolding to completion also a part of Te?

[dawei]

Yeah, the concept I presented above can be viewed fron basically two different perspectives.

 

From the universal view, if something can be then it is within the realm of Tao.  That is to say, everything that is, is an aspct of Tao. So even those things that are contrary to the teachings of Tao are still Tao.

 

You had me at this

 

However, from the view of the Way of Tao, or Te, if you will, is where we find contrary teachings.  Te is natural movement, or rest, at any given point in time.  The Te (or Way) of Tao can never do anything at the wrong time or at the wrong place.

 

The way of man, however, is to rush things, to want to control things, to alter or destroy the natural order established by Tao.  In the long run we always fail, of course.

 

And to teach anything that is contrary to the processes of nature is not the Te of Tao.  It is the way of man.

 

I do follow your point but I tend towards the idea as Fate suggests below... and then he pulls a 'you' by saying "what is not Tao" 

 

Everything is a manifestation of Tao, as the source of all things. I see that it encompasses all paths, all truths, all frequencies of the spectrum of energy.

 

This 'Way of Tao' gets into interesting territory. Trying to live in harmony with the Tao, where will one stand? Yes the TDJ says "surely it is contrary to Tao"

 

But how? Can't we only know what is Tao by what is not Tao?

 

Don't we have to walk the way of man to come back and see what the way of Tao is?

 

And thus, isn't this part of the unfolding to completion also a part of Te?

 

I would think of it as nested dolls...  which fits with my theories over the years of viewing items like ripples in a pond where the last outermost one is boundless.

 

Dao occupies the boundless 'Way' and once manifestation arises, we get the bounded 'Ways'.  

 

The more we perceive within the inner realms (ripples, nested dolls), the more we're following the [bound] Ways of Man... not completely free in a Dao sense.

 

Enjoy this stuff... and the topic of Te has found its Way into it too...

[Stosh]

IMO    

That which isn't Tao,has to be stuff which doesn't actually exist. Well what doesn't exist ? things erroneously inferred or imagined. So illusions not representative of objective reality are not tao.. and that includes imagined gods, learned values, taught mores, fantasies about yourself... etc. To witness tao is to be looking at that which is objectively real, not your personal spin on things. Things look very different when they haven't been spun to suit preconceptions.. and anyone might be looking at things objectively.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Great post Fate, and interesting questions as well.

Everything is a manifestation of Tao, as the source of all things. I see that it encompasses all paths, all truths, all frequencies of the spectrum of energy.

Indeed.  It cannot be otherwise, can it?  But then, the Manifest (known universe), according to science, is only four percent of the totality of the entire universe.  I generally just call this other 96 percent "Mystery" because it is a mystery to me.

 

This 'Way of Tao' gets into interesting territory. Trying to live in harmony with the Tao, where will one stand? Yes the TDJ says "surely it is contrary to Tao"

Interesting indeed, especially when one is trying to find the "right" path.  I like the concept of harmony.  To be in harmony with our inner self as well as in harmony with all that is external.  Sometimes we lose our harmony and this requires us to take (hopefully) appropriate action to regain this harmony.

 

But how? Can't we only know what is Tao by what is not Tao?

Paradox, isn't it?  How can we know what is not Tao if we begin by stating that all is Tao?  This paradox will always arise when we resort to only dualistic thinking.

 

Don't we have to walk the way of man to come back and see what the way of Tao is?

Yes, we must walk the way of man because that is what we are.  However, man has many different ways of walking.  We should choose the path that is most compatible with the Way of Tao.

 

And thus, isn't this part of the unfolding to completion also a part of Te?

The Te of Tao, the Virtue of Tao, the Way of Tao, the processes of Tao, are all basically the same thing.  We don't really talk about Tao.  We think we do but I would ask, "How does one talk about something that is not a singularly identifiable thing?"

 

Therefore we talk about the Te of Tao, that is, simplified, the processes of nature.  These processes and not dualistic - they just are.  (Something like the Laws of Physics.)

 

But then, at the individual level we inject the dualistic concept of "good/bad".

 

Within that question is hiding the concept of "creation/destruction" and even "birth/death".  This is because of "unfolding to completion". 

[Brian]

Two distinct uses, I think -- one intends to refer to the universal "that which is" while the other references a path towards harmony and understanding.

 

All is encompassed in the first sense. The Tao includes light and dark, up and down, war and peace.

 

The second sense is the journey of discovery of power, knowledge and wisdom. As we walk this path, we learn about ourselves, about that which is, and about our relationship with/to that which is.

[Marblehead]

I would think of it as nested dolls...  which fits with my theories over the years of viewing items like ripples in a pond where the last outermost one is boundless.

I don't play with dolls anymore but, yeah, I follow what you are saying.  Ripples in a pond is good but even here we have specific levels so perhaps your nested dolls is more appropriate.

 

Dao occupies the boundless 'Way' and once manifestation arises, we get the bounded 'Ways'.

Total agreement here.  Tao is boundless until aspects of it have become manifest.  They are then subject to the processes of nature (Laws of Physics).

 

The more we perceive within the inner realms (ripples, nested dolls), the more we're following the [bound] Ways of Man... not completely free in a Dao sense.

That is why I have a problem with the "ripples in a pond" concept.  The ripples are not free.  Even the nested dolls are not free but closer to being so.

 

Enjoy this stuff... and the topic of Te has found its Way into it too...

Yep.  And I know you enjoy the dualistic concept of "the Te of Tao/the way of man".

 

To my understanding the best translation of Te is Virtue.  The Te of Tao cannot be other than what it is.  This can also be said regarding the virtue of man but then, man's brain functions based mostly on the concept of dualities so we immediately have a contradiction.

[Marblehead]

IMO    

That which isn't Tao,has to be stuff which doesn't actually exist. Well what doesn't exist ? things erroneously inferred or imagined.

That was a bit of a challenge putting that into words.

[Marblehead]

Two distinct uses, I think -- one intends to refer to the universal "that which is"

Yep.  Not much to say about this.  What is, is.  What moree can be said?

 

while the other references a path towards harmony and understanding.

But here we can talk much.  How do we interact with "that which is"?  And I would agree - harmony and understanding.

 

All is encompassed in the first sense. The Tao includes light and dark, up and down, war and peace.

Yep.  It would be difficult to suggest that wars are good just as it would be difficult to say that a volcanic eruption that killed thousands of people is good.  But they happen, don't they?

 

 

The second sense is the journey of discovery of power, knowledge and wisdom. As we walk this path, we learn about ourselves, about that which is, and about our relationship with/to that which is.

And with a little good fortune mixed in we attain peace and contentment.

[Stosh]

That was a bit of a challenge putting that into words.

Did I misspeak my meaning? I don't see the error. 

[Brian]

<snip>

How do we interact with "that which is"?

<snip>

We can't not interact with "that which is" -- we are of "that which is" and we are immersed in "that which is." There is nothing and no thing which is not "that which is." Unforgetting this, though, is sometimes a challenge.

[Marblehead]

Did I misspeak my meaning? I don't see the error. 

No error, my friend.  That was actually a misty compliment.

[Marblehead]

 Unforgetting this, though, is sometimes a challenge.

No shit!