The Effects of Psychedelics on Cultivation

[futuredaze]

Ok - so after my cannabis thread, I figured this would be the next step:

 

As someone who has experimented with many different things, I find psychedelics one of the most intriguing.  I've seen positive and negative sides of them - experiencing bliss, insight, and creativity, and also extreme fear and self-hatred.  From doing too much in the past, I now know how to be safe with it, finding a good dose, making sure to be in a good mindset and environment, etc.  I think that people should wait until they are older to try it, since they can trigger latent mental illness that would probably become active in someone's 20s.  I also do not think that they are of use to everybody, but those curious should try it and those not curious should not try it and go from there.

 

A lot of people might say that external agents ("drugs" more than "food") should not be relied on, which I agree, and some might even say they should not be used at all, which I disagree with.  True, it is essential to build a foundation in one's self in a sober, meditative mindset.  From there, I think one can have a good framework for experimenting and relating to substances.  I do not look at my body as "me" and substances as "not me" - I look at everything as an interconnected emanation from a mysterious source.  I don't think I grow weaker internally by drinking tea, eating a potato, drinking a beer, having sex, etc. - I grow weaker from depending on these things or doing them with a negative mindset or doing them in sort of an unaware autopilot state of mind.

 

Being a human who possesses self-reflection, analytical thinking, and logical faculties, I like to study everything before I put it in my body, and if there is no research I won't mess around with anything.  Someone might say "drugs are bad" but then have an addiction to Starbucks frappucinos or big macs.  Like many Taoist alchemists, I do not distinguish between food and drugs, they are all agents that can be used or abused (of course some things should never be used) depending on a multitude of factors.

 

I think dose is really important - low doses of psilocybin and LSD, which are more nootropic than psychedelic at these amounts, are found to have creativity-enhancing and problem-solving benefits.  An LSD-analogue, which is illegal only because it is an analogue to LSD, can stop cluster headaches which are apparently as painful as childbirth.  There were a lot of studies done on LSD in the 50s and 60s, many reporting a lot of therapeutic potential.  Many people, well respected, productive members of society, have dabbled with these substances and report life-changing experiences from it, surely some of them must be onto something, I reckon.  For instance, when Francis Crick had his "aha!" moment of realizing the double-helix structure of DNA, he was on LSD.

 

I believe that these agents can be very useful, but often people do them too often, too high doses, or with the intention to get "loaded", so they have receive little if any benefit from them.  It's unfortunate - we live in a society of excess and escapism, not moderation and self-awareness.  Psychedelics can be a ticket to escape or a tool for self-reflection, like going out to a different part of the mountain to view the landscape, instead of just from the town.  And like many have said before me, the "war on drugs" is really a "war on consciousness" which mostly centers around economic and social issues, but that is another topic altogether!

 

I am looking for mostly personal experiences, but open to hearing about what other long-term practitioners say too.  I've looked at these substances from a Western lens, the chemistry of the compounds and some studies done on them.  I'd like to hear more about them from a CTM perspective, involving how they might effect jing, qi, and shen.  I have some theories but want to hear other ideas first.

Edited July 27, 2015 by futuredaze

[kio]

Hey there futuredaze, excellent write-up.

 

I've been through two heavy 'sessions' with psilocybe mushrooms in the last two years when I started taking these things more seriously, but before these there were about three or four occasions in high scool and early college in which I took small doses just for the visual effects.  I recently came across some more, and intend to have another ceremonial dose in the near future.  So it will be interesting to talk about it here first

 

The day after my most recent session -- July of 2014 -- the group I was with began talking about how the Mushrooms act very much like a Philosophic Mercury.  In the alchemical tradition I study (hermeticism), Philosophic Mercury is the universal water which dissolves the 'body of gold' like ice melting in warm water, so that the alchemist can extract and work with the 'seed of gold'.  It was brought up that the Ego may be the vessel or 'body of gold' which the Mushroom dissolves, allowing the subconscious mind to be 'worked' on.

 

And from personal experience, I very much agree.  After my first experience with this dissolution, before I started studying alchemy, I came across the psychedelic concept of the death of the ego, in which the psychonaut realizes that his ego is an illusion, and allows it to destroy itself.

 

And now to relate it to Taoist concepts...  If I understand them correctly, this is an influence on Shen, the principle of the Mind.  And of course, if you re-organize your mind, you reorganize your relationship to reality.  And in my opinion, one's realtionship with reality is their relationship with the Tao.

 

 

 

PS:

The only thing I would suggest to those reading, that wasn't covered in the original post, is to always have a Sitter during psychedelic practices.  A Sitter isn't just one of your friends, it's someone who is familiar with the particular substance.  If you intend to take psilocybe mushrooms, don't ask someone to sit for you that has only done LSD or DMT and never psilocybe.  The effects are very different.

Edited July 27, 2015 by kio

[futuredaze]

Yeah, having a sitter is important - especially for those new to the experience or those trying to take a larger dose.  I think it would be better to have someone experienced as a sitter, but I think having someone who you feel really close to, who is supportive and open-minded is just as important if not more so, than someone experienced.

 

In my opinion, these agents can give shen a different character or energy (hard to find the right words...).  I wouldn't say it is better/worse, higher/lower, or anything like that, it is just different.  In this altered state, one can look at themselves in a new perspective, tackle challenges and issues from a different angle, and sometimes find new insights or new depth to prior insights.  They seem to amplify the subconscious and make it more noticeable.  One of my first experience on mushrooms I was camping, up late into the night, having lots of energy, watching the dawn come in as birds began waking and the sky gradually became a lighter and lighter shade of blue.  Earlier, I was watching how my breathing effected my emotions, thoughts, sense of body, and even the visuals I was seeing on the mushrooms.  After feeling a bit anxious, I simply changed the way I was breathing and gradually felt peace stir in me.  I've had this happen before, but it was really profound and drastic this time, I think it made a big impact in my meditation practice and also made me realize that meditation is way more essential to my well-being than any substance.  One reason people do so many drugs might be that they are not breathing properly, IMO.  Usually, they are not even aware of it!

 

Qi flow can be more noticeable in these states.  Most of my experiences were done before I could feel the qi like I can now, but I have done some low-doses since and definitely felt the energy circulating around my body even when I wasn't trying to.  I often feel a bit more child-like in these moments, in the good ways, there is a lot of curiosity and playfulness, I feel more open.  Having a good meditation or qigong session can evoke similar things, but it is a very different character.  Like I said, there is no "better/worse" with it, but I definitely think that these agents are not to be used regularly, at least not in the higher doses.

 

I am not sure how these agents effect jing, but I think they can provide insight on the relation between internal alchemy with jing, qi, and shen.  A good psychedelic experience is cleansing itself, but afterwards I usually try to be more health conscious and in tune with my body.

 

To return to my metaphor of perspective on the mountain - things like psychedelic drugs, intensive retreats, intense solo journeys, etc. are sort of like trying to summit the mountain.  It is life changing to climb up the mountain, to face ourselves totally in solitude, with many challenges and beautiful sights along the way.  To reach the top is to effectively bridge the heavens and the earth.  And yet when we get to the top, we must come down.  If we are stuck up there for too long, we will get lost, go mad, or die, and the whole journey will be in vain because it is not integrated into a bigger picture.  The town is like sober, grounded consciousness.  Yes, it sucks to be there sometimes, but that is where we make our livelihood and spend time with people we love.  It is where we grow food for nourishment and get rooted in our daily life.  And while it may be fun to tell others about our journey, the real purpose of the journey is to fulfill something deep within ourselves, something that we can nourish and then share with the world in our own unique way.

Edited July 27, 2015 by futuredaze

[Bud Jetsun]

All human input to understand the nature of reality is filtered through perceptions. 

 

It is fallacy to assume 'sober mind' is some uniquely accurate perspective, it is merely the subjective delusion filled hallucination many are most comfortable experiencing. 

 

We are all going to die, and every-thing will crumble to dust. In the illusion of 'prior' to this, we have a single fleeting moment of experience to aid in realization.  

 

It is not that plant teachers themselves offer anything beyond fleetingly altered perception.  It's that with each additional vantage point of the nature of reality offers the potential for previously ineffable realization.  

 

The plant can't do the work for you.  It's easy to use a plant teacher, choose not to ponder the nature of reality, choose not to make realizations, and choose not to mediate on them afterwards until you've integrated what the new perspectives and insights offered rather than simply forgetting anything profound and unrealized. 

 

The human body is hardwired with hundreds of thousands of specific chemical receptors and blood-brain barrier transport systems that exist in every human for the sole function of receiving extremely specific plant-teacher compounds that chemically interlock with them like an incredibly complex 3d key in a 3d lock.  

 

Though certainly not required, many past enlightened beings who actually succeeded did so through leveraging plant teachers of many types. In more recent times, we see outspoken behavior against plant teachers by those who wish folks to follow them in existing in an unrealized state of delusion and perpetual suffering.

 

If one was born of realized parents into a community of realized beings, and all conversation one experienced was enlightened wisdom, it would be conducive to enabling self-realization, we would all be swimming in Buddhas without needing any realization aids.  Given that this is not the life experience most face, and given the difficulty of the realizations didn't decrease, and given every interaction with non-realized beings is reinforcing non-realized thought, it seems like foolish pride not to use the diverse arrays of realization aids nature and our bodies design has afforded. 

 

With Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[wilfred]

love what has been said in this thread. to echo some of the statements here, i am kind of in two minds but with the overarching belief that they are very helpful when used diligently, with the right intentions. for example, there is no way i would be here right now and following my current path of cultivation/meditaiton practices if it were not for a powerful psilocybin experience a couple of years back. i had used it in the past, but for fun, whereas this time i went into it with the specific intention of facilitating healing and set the mood with some soulful, emotional music.

what happened was quite remarkable and led to both physical healing and a number of realizations. the physical healing part is more unusual to the people i've described it too, but bear in mind i was in a bad shape energetically at the time (long term chronic illness). during the trip it felt like someone lit a fire in my chest, i started breathing deeply, crying and huge amounts of mucus was ejected through the nose. having read about 'subtle phlegm' buildup and it's associated energies this now makes sense, it was purging at the deepest level and i felt profoundly happier, less attached and lustful after the experience. i also had realizations as to the interconnectness of nature, the life principle and the hillarity of how you can't stop it or struggle against it. so the best thing is clearly to align with it and connect with love and empathy wherever we can. this seems to be a more common thread in psilocybin experiences and undoubtedly a core lesson the mushroom has to offer.

 

so there was that, but the downside was that i became increasingly unsettled in the coming days, on the back of the blissful healing. in short i became disturbed by people, had a breakdown (scary) and that was the final straw that led to seeking out a teacher, learning meditation/energy practices and being where i am now with this stuff. i was confused, hopelessly lost, but there were 'signs' that made it abundantly clear that's what i had to do. ended up being the best thing i ever did. but this proves the point of what's been said about being in good shape and grounded before being able to work with these substances, to minimize any risks.

 

something the teacher has said about 'quantum' experiences is that they can be amazing and offer breakthroughs, realizations, but it can be very hard to integrate them into ones life without some context as to what is going on. in that sense they're a crude approach to healing, almost like using a sledgehammer. therein comes the importance of a more systematic training of the mind, teachings, practices, to give us the deepest insight into our day to day lives and slowly drop our 'stuff' at a pace that's comfortable. my experience seems to have been essential to my own 'path', including the aversion that came afterward, due to where it lead me, but not recommended to the average confused person who is sick and needs guidance. things could easily take a turn for the worse and you wind up in an even darker place for not having understood the significance of what happened. many of our negative habit patterns are deeply ingrained and will not be even close to gone in one go. powerful stuff that can upset a delicate balance in many scenarios.

 

i've used psilocybin a couple more times recently, armed with knowledge on energetics, dhamma teachings and a stable meditation practice. very different! what i can say is that it's very obviously working on the subtle body-karmic energy. the 'dissolving' of ego is working through past experiences via the empathetic viewpoint it brings. on a physical level it feels like the front brain area is totally frozen, which is 100% backed up by neuroscience research on the substance. that's what you're trying to achieve in meditation and it's doing it for you. doing actual meditation on top of that becomes very easy, i sat cross legged and some interesting things happened - people in the house experienced vivid dreams while i was doing so and also i was seeing into other realities/realms - images of a city with red buildings (seemed to have buddhist relevance) phased in-out over this reality in my visual field, pretty cool!

 

unfortunately huge breakthroughs weren't really a thing, it brought all my 'stuff' right to the surface in a way that i wasn't ready to deal with all at once. things 'coming up' also has the effect of making time seem to move faster, in an uncomfortable way (easy to tell through music) and afterward i was totally off-balance due to the strength of this energy. this solidified my thinking to just continue with the practices, where i can work through stuff at a steady pace, rather than try and speed things up when there was no realizations, only peaking awareness of stuff i'm already well aware of. last thing to note is that i think the karma burning element of psilocybin is using up active chi/jing in the system to do it's stuff. after a session you feel absolutely starving like you haven't eaten in a week, so it's interacting with something in the physical energy system too.

Edited July 28, 2015 by wilfred

[Aeran]

I think it comes down to the context. For therapeutic use, I think using the chemical by itself is useless (and the research bears this out, from what I remember). They can be extremely beneficial, but the context is essential - ideally some kind of all-inclusive, long term, multi-modality treatment program. Create a safe, healthy environment (somewhere between a psychological therapy and a meditation retreat, where patients can either come for periods of weeks/months or visit regularly for outpatient treatment), have the individual go through a process of extensive personal counseling, behavioral therapy, spiritual/energetic treatment and lifestyle adjustment, punctuated by experiences with the appropriate chemicals in an appropriate environment, closely supervised by a professional experienced with the substance and the wider issues surrounding it's therapeutic use.

 

Spiritual use I'm less keen on. I think in the long run, they have the potential to do more harm than good in this context - I've always felt that if you need a chemical to attain a state of consciousness, you probably have no business being within that state of consciousness in the first place. Enough can go wrong with spiritual cultivation without throwing unpredictable drug experiences into the mix (and I've yet to meet or hear of anyone who either had their spiritual path triggered by a drug experience or who used drugs as a part of their spiritual path and then grew out of the drug use and went on to significant attainment).

 

My own experience and observation is that it tends to lead to people relying on the drug to gain insight which they preach and adopt aesthetically but don't integrate into their mindset and lifestyle, and to an obsession with the drug itself (as opposed to the drug as a simple window into a higher state of consciousness) which can often become dangerous. People who consider themselves spiritual, but who's spiritual life is nothing but the consumption of these drugs and then the descent back into materialism in their day to day life.

 

Perhaps, like therapeutic use, a way could be found to create a setup where the benefits outweigh the risks, but we're a long way away from that I think (and I also imagine that by that stage, we'll have found more direct ways to alter the consciousness, instead of ingesting random chemicals because some of the parts of the brain they light up happen to have beneficial effects).

[futuredaze]

I think it comes down to the context. For therapeutic use, I think using the chemical by itself is useless (and the research bears this out, from what I remember). They can be extremely beneficial, but the context is essential - ideally some kind of all-inclusive, long term, multi-modality treatment program. Create a safe, healthy environment (somewhere between a psychological therapy and a meditation retreat, where patients can either come for periods of weeks/months or visit regularly for outpatient treatment), have the individual go through a process of extensive personal counseling, behavioral therapy, spiritual/energetic treatment and lifestyle adjustment, punctuated by experiences with the appropriate chemicals in an appropriate environment, closely supervised by a professional experienced with the substance and the wider issues surrounding it's therapeutic use.

 

Spiritual use I'm less keen on. I think in the long run, they have the potential to do more harm than good in this context - I've always felt that if you need a chemical to attain a state of consciousness, you probably have no business being within that state of consciousness in the first place. Enough can go wrong with spiritual cultivation without throwing unpredictable drug experiences into the mix (and I've yet to meet or hear of anyone who either had their spiritual path triggered by a drug experience or who used drugs as a part of their spiritual path and then grew out of the drug use and went on to significant attainment).

 

My own experience and observation is that it tends to lead to people relying on the drug to gain insight which they preach and adopt aesthetically but don't integrate into their mindset and lifestyle, and to an obsession with the drug itself (as opposed to the drug as a simple window into a higher state of consciousness) which can often become dangerous. People who consider themselves spiritual, but who's spiritual life is nothing but the consumption of these drugs and then the descent back into materialism in their day to day life.

 

Perhaps, like therapeutic use, a way could be found to create a setup where the benefits outweigh the risks, but we're a long way away from that I think (and I also imagine that by that stage, we'll have found more direct ways to alter the consciousness, instead of ingesting random chemicals because some of the parts of the brain they light up happen to have beneficial effects).

 

Good points, I agree with most of this.  I think that the therapeutic/introspective benefits of these substances can have profound effects on one's spiritual life, though, even if it is not direct and instantaneous.  Sometimes, a realization about even a seemingly minor aspect of one's consciousness and lifestyle can have huge repercussions in other aspects of their lives.  For instance, overcoming an addiction, realizing negative thought-patterns, and being honest about our own shortcomings will lead to spiritual development.  As they used to say in the Zen Monastery I would go to, "the spiritual and the mundane are not separate."

 

Like Alan Watts says, "once you get the message, hang up the phone" - a lot of drug users get addicted to being connected to that telephone wire so they miss out on other things.

 

Speaking of Alan Watts, he was a very heavy drinker, which is what killed him if I recall correctly.  I didn't know him personally, but he is well-respected, many people consider him realized.  I'm sure there are other examples, Ram Dass obviously used LSD and such but I'm not sure if he put that aside when he really started focusing on his spiritual journey.

Edited July 28, 2015 by futuredaze

[Bud Jetsun]

In everything, there is a path to do it wrong, and a path to do it right. (Actually just doing, but I'm making an incorrect generalization pointlessly)

Edited July 28, 2015 by Bud Jetsun

[Songtsan]

I think that these tools can open you up to possibilities, both negative and positive. It seems to open one up to outside interference, but there is probably really truly no inside or outside, so its also probably not so. I've tripped thousands of times, gone months on LSD, shrooms, dissasociatives, stims, downers, uppers, lefters, righters and it truly messes with one. I kind of have a crazy thrill ride death wish, and believe in not much, except when I do, and then that changes too. My advice is that if you value contentment, don't get into habits. If you feel stuck in life however, these things can help you see differently, but you have to take the message that you receive while on them and put it into action. That just takes plain old willpower and stick-to-it-iveness. The entheogens, etc. are not the cure, they are the pointer to the cure. They show the way, but aren't the way. I imagine that if you have an addictive personality, that you will continue to be reborn simply to do more drugs.

 

Part of 'the practice' is being satisfied with life's simple pleasures. That's why I respect the Buddhist way of non-intoxicant using.

 

Mostly I would use these things as exploratory devices - 'desire to know' - shortcuts to unlock Maras, Mayas, makyos, etc. and examine them and maybe be tricked into believing them for a bit, and then realizing the folly of it all (belief - belief is folly!). 

 

I am pretty much done with 'em, after over 20 years of intense insanity.

 

Only thing on my bucket list that I will do is Peyote and Ibogaine.....hopefully one day I will be gifted with those experiences.

 

Plenty of other things I haven't tried tried that I would if it came my way, like controlled Datura, things that I am not attached to trying, only Peyote and Ibogaine do I hunger for, LOL.

 

But, yes, these things have been both boon and curse.

 

I have strongly wished that next lifetime I will be reborn in Japan and live a life that is disciplined and without drugs. Not that they dont have 'em there, but less likely to encounter 'em.

 

Drugs....my hate/lovers

[Taoway]

.

Edited October 24, 2015 by bodhidharma

[Taoway]

This is a great thread in a great place!

 

Also has anyone ever heard or tried Hawaiian baby woodrose seeds? They contain a similar compound to lsd. Lsa I think.

 

I have heard of some very dmt like experiences from thes seeds at high dosages. But they are very uncomfortable to handle. Causing terrible stomach pains

Edited October 24, 2015 by bodhidharma

[Taoway]

Good points, I agree with most of this. I think that the therapeutic/introspective benefits of these substances can have profound effects on one's spiritual life, though, even if it is not direct and instantaneous. Sometimes, a realization about even a seemingly minor aspect of one's consciousness and lifestyle can have huge repercussions in other aspects of their lives. For instance, overcoming an addiction, realizing negative thought-patterns, and being honest about our own shortcomings will lead to spiritual development. As they used to say in the Zen Monastery I would go to, "the spiritual and the mundane are not separate."

 

Like Alan Watts says, "once you get the message, hang up the phone" - a lot of drug users get addicted to being connected to that telephone wire so they miss out on other things.

 

Speaking of Alan Watts, he was a very heavy drinker, which is what killed him if I recall correctly. I didn't know him personally, but he is well-respected, many people consider him realized. I'm sure there are other examples, Ram Dass obviously used LSD and such but I'm not sure if he put that aside when he really started focusing on his spiritual journey.

Alan watts also used lsd quite a bit in his earlier years I believe. Even did it with his daughter.

 

Terence mckenna is also a very insightful person who dabbled in psychoactive substances. I dont know if hehe'd call him self realized.. but his perspectives about life and the planet are very interesting and helpful.

 

Osho even used nitrous oxide I have read haha. He was in the dental field when he was younger so I could see where he got introduced to it.

 

In the past 6 months I got 8 teeth removed and was under nitrous twice. The other time I wss knocked out.But the first time the experience felt so familiar. Like it had happened millions of times before in my dream. Then the second time it wss with a nother doctor and it felt a little less mystical and was a bit more aware.

 

But both doctors said the exact same thing as they dod the procedure. Theyd say "open turn slightly. Litttle pinch " this made it seem like terrible dejavu.

Even the girl assisting the second doctor acted the EXACTA same way as the first girl who helped the first doctor. She would ask how im doing. Say a joke id look up rolling my eyes to the ceiling almost to laugh and shed laugh and move back and forth in a weird motion.

It just made me very aware of that moment. And everything seemed so dreamlike.

 

Probably more intense then any other psycho active substance ive used.

[Songtsan]

I've done HBWR seeds before - felt like being close to death - there is however a way to extract the active hallucinogenic compounds, while avoiding the toxins. If you are a real kitchen chemist, you can do all kinds of solvent extractions with morning glory and HBWR and make some 'almost LSD' like stuff which is pleasant enough. Also mescalin extractions with San Pedro cactus might be worth trying....