nibbana - cessation - the highest happiness, really?

[Pits&Bieces]

nibbana praised as the highest happiness because you are free from suffering. that's great! but its also complete cessation of the body mind. 

 

i  see that going through jhanas and cultivating compassion and wisdom as very worthwhile, but why go all the way? isn't it worth suffering a bit to have your happiness? why do buddhist say that extinction is preferable?

[Spotless]

Their is no highest and nothing describes the process well - but putting the cart before the horse is a mind game and part of the rabbits way.

 

The "suffering" is not suffering - but that is not clear until you are in less grasp - it was never about suffering.

 

Even the translation to "suffering" is incorrect / far from the original intent.

 

All suffering is related to grasping.

[Pits&Bieces]

yeah, suffering isn't exactly the right word.

 

idt I'm putting the cart before the horse as you say it'd just be cool to understand the appeal of the destination before implementing the dhamma.. the 8-fold path makes sense as a path of ever-increasing happiness, except for the end result of complete extinction;how could there possibly be any happiness there? freedom from suffering yes, but extinction of everything else too, sooooo...

 

it just doesn't sound too appealing, yet so many are after it so its likely i'm misunderstanding something here. could anyone explain?

Edited July 28, 2015 by Pits&Bieces

[Gerard]

Happiness is only a mental state and comes in many levels according to your own karma, nirvana is beyond the mental. Suffering is attachment, craving as a result and lust on top, also mental.

 

You will know when you get there, until then practice and keep living. There is no other way around it. You are moving in a circle without realising about it. Just take a look about how galaxies are arranged which spring from your own mind.

 

Good luck!

[Spotless]

yeah, suffering isn't exactly the right word.

 

idt I'm putting the cart before the horse as you say it'd just be cool to understand the appeal of the destination before implementing the dhamma.. the 8-fold path makes sense as a path of ever-increasing happiness, except for the end result of complete extinction;how could there possibly be any happiness there? freedom from suffering yes, but extinction of everything else too, sooooo...

 

it just doesn't sound too appealing, yet so many are after it so its likely i'm misunderstanding something here. could anyone explain?

 

It's not complete extinction - nothing of the sort - it is the end of isolation.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

[TDB's Daniel Ingram interview] 

 

19) Is there rebirth after death? If not, then what's the point of practice? 

 

A: It is an old debate and question. Is there even rebirth moment to moment in this life? It really depends on what you mean by rebirth, and this is not just some intellectual debate, but really what it means for you in your moment and mind right now. There are tons of reasons to practice even if you take the view that there is no rebirth, as practice can make huge positive changes in this life. Further, if you believe there is rebirth, then it clearly creates good conditions for that next birth, so if you hold that view then you should still practice. Also, if you feel that getting off the round of rebirths as you conceive of it is the best option, then that should be good motivation to practice. If, instead, you subscribe to an ideal such as a Bodhisattva ideal and feel you should reincarnate skilfully to help all beings, that is clearly a great reason to practice. In short, however you view rebirth, you should practice well. Practicing well enough answers the question in ways that talking about it doesn’t. [...]

The question of what exactly nirvana really is and why anyone would want it is a tricky one. And the Bodhisattva ideal throws a different spin on this too.

 

I doubt many people actually practice with the goal of ending all experience forever. But the path itself is clearly beneficial as far as I'm concerned, so it seems more likely to me that any final end result, if there is one, would seem 'good' to someone who gets there, even if we wouldn't understand why (just as adults love things kids hate), rather than suddenly taking a turn into unimaginable horror.

 

I mean, if you're walking down a street of nice houses you'd be fairly surprised if all of a sudden there was a cenobite house at the end of the row and they dragged you in with a razor-wire net. You can reasonably expect the last house to also be nice.

 

You don't even have to look as far as nirvana to get a 'wtf? Why do that?'. Consider the transition from 3rd to 4th jhana - dropping sukkha for complete equanimity. Apparently, at that stage, utter equanimity, neither pleasure nor pain, is 'better' than profound joy. Strange, huh?

 

According to AN 9.34, this is how arhats think about it:

 

Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends."

 

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

 

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt. There are these five strings of sensuality. Forms cognizable via the eye; sounds cognizable via the ear... smells cognizable via the nose... tastes cognizable via the tongue... tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, enticing. Whatever pleasure or joy arises in dependence on these five strings of sensuality, that is sensual pleasure.

 

"Now there is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with sensuality, that is an affliction for him. Just as pain arises as an affliction in a healthy person for his affliction, even so the attention to perceptions dealing with sensuality that beset the monk is an affliction for him. Now, the Blessed One has said that whatever is an affliction is stress. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant.

 

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with directed thought, that is an affliction for him...

 

[similarly, in each of the other jhanas the features of previous jhanas seem coarse]

 

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant."

[Jeff]

nibbana praised as the highest happiness because you are free from suffering. that's great! but its also complete cessation of the body mind. 

 

i  see that going through jhanas and cultivating compassion and wisdom as very worthwhile, but why go all the way? isn't it worth suffering a bit to have your happiness? why do buddhist say that extinction is preferable?

 

From the Lankavatara sutra on your point...

 

There are two ways in which the ceasing of the mind-system may take place: as regards form, and as regards continuation. The sense-organs fuction as regards form by the interaction of form, contact and grasping; and they cease to fuction when this contact is broken. As regards continuation,- when these interactions of form, contact and grasping cease, there is no more continuation of the seeing, hearing and other sense fuctions; with the ceasing of these sense fuctions, the discriminations, graspings and attachments of the discriminating-mind cease; and with their ceasing act and eed and they habit-energy cease, and there is no more accumulation of karma-defilment on the face of Universal Mind.

 

If the evolving mortal-mind were of the same nature as Universal Mind the cessation of the lower mind-system would mean the cessation of Universal Mind, but they are different for Universal Mind is not the cause of mortal-mind. There is no cessation of Universal Mind in its pure and essence-nature. What ceases to fuction is not Universal Mind in its essence-nature, but is the cessation of the effect-producing defilments upon its face that have been caused by the accumulation of the habit-energy of the activities of the discriminating and thinking mortal-mind. There is no cessation of Divine Mind which, in itself, is the abode of Reality and the Womb of Truth.

[子泰]

.

Edited September 12, 2015 by 子泰

[C T]

From the Lankavatara sutra on your point... There are two ways in which the ceasing of the mind-system may take place: as regards form, and as regards continuation. The sense-organs fuction as regards form by the interaction of form, contact and grasping; and they cease to fuction when this contact is broken. As regards continuation,- when these interactions of form, contact and grasping cease, there is no more continuation of the seeing, hearing and other sense fuctions; with the ceasing of these sense fuctions, the discriminations, graspings and attachments of the discriminating-mind cease; and with their ceasing act and eed and they habit-energy cease, and there is no more accumulation of karma-defilment on the face of Universal Mind. If the evolving mortal-mind were of the same nature as Universal Mind the cessation of the lower mind-system would mean the cessation of Universal Mind, but they are different for Universal Mind is not the cause of mortal-mind. There is no cessation of Universal Mind in its pure and essence-nature. What ceases to fuction is not Universal Mind in its essence-nature, but is the cessation of the effect-producing defilments upon its face that have been caused by the accumulation of the habit-energy of the activities of the discriminating and thinking mortal-mind. There is no cessation of Divine Mind which, in itself, is the abode of Reality and the Womb of Truth.

Jeff.. Its way simpler than that. 

 

Really is. 

[Jeff]

Jeff.. Its way simpler than that. 

 

Really is. 

 

Actually, I kind of like the detailed descriptions of the Lankavatara sutra and thought it directly went to the OP. I have also found the sutra to be very accurate. What would you consider a better (and simpler) sutra on the point? Or, how would you put it in your own words?

 

Thanks.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Actually, I kind of like the detailed descriptions of the Lankavatara sutra and thought it directly went to the OP. I have also found the sutra to be very accurate. What would you consider a better (and simpler) sutra on the point? Or, how would you put it in your own words?Thanks.

Gee, Jeff, Malcolm himself told you that the Lankavatra Sutra is not a reliable source and yet you persist and claim that it is "very accurate".

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=19231&hilit=Jeff&start=200

 

That is a very interesting link isn't it? Seems you can't get away with your bullshit over at Dharmawheel...

[seekingbuddha]

Their is no highest and nothing describes the process well - but putting the cart before the horse is a mind game and part of the rabbits way. The "suffering" is not suffering - but that is not clear until you are in less grasp - it was never about suffering. Even the translation to "suffering" is incorrect / far from the original intent. All suffering is related to grasping.

 

Truth, right there in that last statement....."All suffering is related-to/dependent-on  grasping/attachment/craving/clinging".   As far as my reading/understanding goes,  the pali word used by Buddha has been translated into  multiple english words, which  try to catch  the various  facets  of that  one pali word. The english words I have seen are  Suffering/Unsatisfactory/pain/conflict-in-mind  etc.   All these are english words, motivate  one to seek  the PATH -  a way to reach  Peace/Bliss/Joy/Tranquility/Liberation from bondage.

[C T]

Actually, I kind of like the detailed descriptions of the Lankavatara sutra and thought it directly went to the OP. I have also found the sutra to be very accurate. What would you consider a better (and simpler) sutra on the point? Or, how would you put it in your own words? Thanks.

I don't recall that there is any mention of Universal Mind in the aforementioned sutra. Perhaps you can highlight that which i may have missed. 

[Jeff]

I don't recall that there is any mention of Universal Mind in the aforementioned sutra. Perhaps you can highlight that which i may have missed. 

 

Chapter 5 describes the "mind system". Universal mind would be the same as Buddhamind.

 

http://www.purifymind.com/LankavataraSutra.htm

 

[Apech]

The  Lankavatara sutra is a Yogacara sutra and therefore unlikely to appeal to anyone studying Theraveda or Madhyamaka systems.  It's teachings are particularly appropriate to Zen, Chan and other 'mind only' schools - which is why it includes elaborate analysis of levels of consciousness and so on,  The textual context is always important when giving detailed quotes and one of the reasons that they do not present answers to general questions but present a certain view to be understood in terms of a certain way of practice,

[doc benway]

nibbana praised as the highest happiness because you are free from suffering. that's great! but its also complete cessation of the body mind. 

 

i  see that going through jhanas and cultivating compassion and wisdom as very worthwhile, but why go all the way? isn't it worth suffering a bit to have your happiness? why do buddhist say that extinction is preferable?

 

You see that cultivating compassion and wisdom are very worthwhile, what is the point of following thoughts of "what if"?

This is the point of Tilopa's 6 word instructions discussed in a recent thread.

This is a foundational principle.

If you concern yourself with your imagination of the future related to nibanna, you certainly do not have to worry about ever actually reaching it... If you focus on the practice that you see is working, before you know it the answers will begin to reveal themselves in their own good time and fashion. They already have if you SEE the cultivating compassion and wisdom are very worthwhile.

Worrying about a far off, imaginary goal rather than focusing on what you can see is effective here and now is certainly "putting the cart before the horse."

[Bud Jetsun]

nibbana praised as the highest happiness because you are free from suffering. that's great! but its also complete cessation of the body mind. 

 

i  see that going through jhanas and cultivating compassion and wisdom as very worthwhile, but why go all the way? isn't it worth suffering a bit to have your happiness? why do buddhist say that extinction is preferable?

 

 

You only 'extinct' your delusions, your wanting, judging, clinging etc.  They are available to return at any moment you wish to cease control of a mindful state that excludes them, however with there return includes the self-arising suffering they bring. 

 

Your ego may view it as losing everything to which it clings and manifests from your delusions.  Your non-ego being doesn't miss them in the least, it enjoys indescribable bliss of peace without them. 

 

Imagine the worry level you have if you are living only in Now, not in the delusion of what may be, or what your mind has delusions of remembering what has once been.  

 

It's an indescribable state of universal and complete peace. 

 

With unlimited Love,

-Bud

[ChiForce]

Sigh...you shouldn't trouble yourself with nibbana because, depending on various Buddhist school of thoughts, your ultimate liberation won't come in a single life time.  Maybe 2 or 3 or 4.  It is generally not something most cultivators should worry about.    If you are really serious about your path, work on your detachment from the skandha of forms.  Once you can breakaway from the form attachments, that should unleash your wind or chi energy.

[Anderson]

Nibbana is the highest happiness.If you don't believe it ask Jax.

[Ramm]

In my understanding, it is incorrect to force yourself into the belief that everything is dukkha. Dukkha is dhamma (=is truth), but it's not a negative view of the world, and should not be accepted as a belief. It's much healthier to be honest with yourself about your own experience. We're all, to some extent, deluded into thinking some things are not dukkha, and that is ok, it is more honest than lying to yourself. The right view about dukkha should come naturally from direct experience. What you don't want to do is paint a view on top of the world. That distorts your perception, it's simply sañña. In the same way, wanting nibbana in the sense of cessation, before one has attained right view, is either a lie or comes from a negative view (like wanting to commit suicide to escape suffering). It's healthier then to view nibbana as the desire to extinguish suffering, which is a natural drive for all beings and we can all relate to at any stage. We all suffer or are more or less dissatisfied with some things, we all scratch when we have an itch, eat when we are hungry, drink when we are thirsty, we can understand that, even when we think we are generally happy we can still understand there is at least some dukkha, thus the desire to cease dukkha is an honest one and conducive to the practice.

More generally, repeating what the Buddha said before one has the direct experience of it, is a roadblock. If you still think having sex is desirable, cool, accept it, that is honest, and that is the extent to which you have or have not seen the truth. You can work with that. My two cents

[manitou]

The word 'suffering' never really hit home for me.  But I can sure get into 'anxiety' if I'm not in balance.  Grasping, projecting, judging, fearing tomorrow.  The quiet mind, once cultivated, is sheer heaven.