Guns/Weapons etc

[Sunya]

i prefer not to think philosophically about such matters. just a waste of energy.

if you feel you need a gun for protection, then you have fear. and i believe that fear will attract negativity towards you. i'm not saying that having no fear means you won't die.. but if someone breaks into my house with a gun, then i'll give them what they want and they can leave. if they kill me, then they kill me. having a fear of death is just an attachment to your physical body and just shows lack of spiritual progress.

 

 

 

mantis, has someone ever broken into your house? i doubt it. and i doubt it will ever happen. this whole "what if" thinking is what gets countries into wars. just don't think about it, and if it happens so be it. you worry too much my friend

 

i believe that if you kill another person, protection or not, you will end up right back here in the next life to figure out why. life is precious, even the life of a crazed drug addict.

 

i am being overtly idealistic but thats just my style baby

Edited October 25, 2007 by mikaelz

[mantis]

my house has been robbed. twice. your ideals aren't realistic - it's not my death that bothers me it's the protection of my family. i don't fear death but i'm not letting anyone take me before i'm ready.

[turbo]

if someone breaks into my house with a gun, then i'll give them what they want and they can leave. if they kill me, then they kill me. having a fear of death is just an attachment to your physical body and just shows lack of spiritual progress.

 

...

 

i am being overtly idealistic but thats just my style baby

Uhh yeah, riiiight. Its easy to sit in your comfortable home behind a computer screen and say that someone's fear of death just is their own personal failing, but until you've had a gun pulled on you you'll never know how far from reality you are. Losing complete attachment to the body is an advanced stage of spiritual cultivation. Further, having your life threatened at gun point by someone you don't know is an experience that will change your life. Its not cool, its not easy, you don't think rationally, your are in a shit panic unlike any panic you've experienced before. It is not like "Yeah man come on in take what you want don't mind me." A few moments after word you can't even remember what you said or what when down when you were faced with the possibility of the end of your life at someone else's whim. If that avatar is your picture then you seem young, likely you do no have a wife or kids, same as me. I can not imagine what would happen if someone broke into my house and threatened my family. A high degree of non attachment indeed.

[mantis]

woops! don't mind this post LOL

Edited October 25, 2007 by mantis

[Sunya]

weapons are instruments of ill omen.

when you have no choice but to use them, it's best to remain tranquil and calm.

you should never look upon them as things of beauty.

if you see them as beautiful things -- this is to delight in the killing of men.

and when you delight in the killing of men, you will not realize your goal in the land.

 

Lao Tzu

[Mal]

[arnquist]

Very interesting thread, thanks for starting it Cam.

First, foreign invaders would never bring an army into the US as the populace is too armed and what the army didn't take care of the citizenry would. Second, the founders believed that we may need to defend ourselves from the government someday.

This made me laugh, I guess because it's hard for me to imagine, but it's true, and I'm grateful that the founding fathers thought of it. Many people have already said this, weapons themselves are not evil, actions are. People just tend to have the wrong attitude about weapons, we should not love them, and should only use them when there is no other choice. Power corrupts, like Tolkien said, even the power that comes from owning a gun can corrupt you if you're not careful.

[mwight]

I guess I could roll over like a *explicative deleted* and take it in the *explicative deleted*, and wind up dead.

 

I however view my life as just as important as a would be killer or attacker, it's survival of the fittest always has been and always will be. In my mind their is nothing immoral about defending yourself.

 

I am not afraid to die, I am afraid of being reborn again into this world. I want out, I want to break this cycle.

 

Giving my life up before I naturally die, or achieved liberation, on some moral grounds would be stupid.

 

Achieving liberation is something I have to do above all else before I die. That is why being prepared to survive a violent attack is important to me.

 

The only thing I can fathom is that people who are ready to forfeit their lives on moral grounds must not have a dream to accomplish here in this life.

Edited October 25, 2007 by mwight

[tumoessence]

I wonder how the chips fall on this issue in regards to who holds what view and has kids and family. I know I have changed a lot in my view of the world having kids that I am responsible for.

In the Lao Tzu quote above he says not to delight in killing, not, not to kill when necessary. Not to find weapons beautiful. There is nothing said about not killing where necessary. I don't have a gun or know how to use one, but I wouldn't hesitate to use the sword here if I could grab it in time.

[rex]

The only thing I can fathom is that people who are ready to forfeit their lives on moral grounds must not have a dream to accomplish here in this life.

Unless of course they believe that in doing so they achieve something greater spiritually in the after death state.

 

I think it would be great if there was some sort of practice that leads to a siddhi which makes it impossible for an act of violence to occur with a three mile radius of a practitioner.

Edited October 26, 2007 by rex

[arnquist]

In the Lao Tzu quote above he says not to delight in killing, not, not to kill when necessary.

Another Lao Tzu quote from chapter 31 of the Tao Te Ching says...

 

Weapons of war are instruments of fear,

and are not favoured by the wise,

who use them only when there is no choice,

for peace and stillness are dear to their hearts,

and victory causes them no rejoicing.

 

... could be a mistranslation, I don't know Chinese, but it makes sense to me.

[mwight]

Unless of course they believe that in doing so they achieve something greater spiritually in the after death state.

 

Neither Heaven nor Hell is permanent, and rebirth is inevitable. I personally am not interested in gaining spiritual brownie points, so I have have a better "temporary" vacation. I want out of this cycle, even if that means eternal death so be it.

 

Every being has the intrinsic right to defend their own lives, and the lives of loved ones.

 

Self preservation, and self defense are fundamental to nature. How many animals in nature just lie down and allow themselves to be eaten by their predators? Even they have enough self respect to attempt to save their own lives in such a situation.

 

I don't have much respect for a person who doesn't even value their own life.

 

 

Don't get me wrong. I am against violence. I am vegetarian. It bothers me that we needlessly slaughter millions of beings each day to fill our fat bellies, while we let half the human population of earth starve to death. I hate war, and needless human death and suffering. The more I observe humanity the more disconnected I feel from it, the more I want out of this insane world. It solidifies in my mind the unreality of this world, for only in a dream could things be so absolutely insane.

Edited October 26, 2007 by mwight

[rex]

Every being has the intrinsic right to defend their own lives, and the lives of loved ones.

I'm with you here!

 

... Even they have enough self respect to attempt to save their own lives in such a situation. ... I don't have much respect for a person who doesn't even value their own life.

I'm not with you here. It depends if the pacifism is based on weakness or a conscious courageous decision based on 'The View'. The former evokes my compassion, the latter my admiration.

 

I personally am not interested in gaining spiritual brownie points, so I have have a better "temporary" vacation. I want out of this cycle, even if that means eternal death so be it.

Now this is the theory though I can't live up to this: if one faces violence and death with equanimity and compassion this would burn up immense negative karma, so much so, that in future rebirths you may never face aggression again or you find self reborn in another place where violence simply doesn't exist. Of course this needs vision and courage but, personally, if I ever had face to serious violence and aggression I would be a coward and go into battle mode. This is a tricky one as I've formally taken a vow not to kill!!! Edited October 26, 2007 by rex

[VeeCee]

It depends if the pacifism is based on weakness or a conscious courageous decision based on 'The View'. The former evokes my compassion, the latter my admiration.

 

Agreed. Pacifism is not about not valueing your own life. It is about valueing ALL life. Many people have died for something they believe in (not just pacifists).

[mwight]

if one faces violence and death with equanimity and compassion this would burn up immense negative karma, so much so, that in future rebirths you may never face aggression again or you find self reborn in another place where violence simply doesn't exist.

 

I don't really care about burning up negative karma, I care about getting out of this cycle of death and rebirth.

You can burn all negative karma you want, help all the people in the world, kiss all the babies you want, work your entire life serving the poor and the sick, and all it will earn you is a better heaven, and a better life "next go round".

 

I think while all these things are wonderful, and compassion for your fellow man should never be overlooked, it still doesn't do squat to stop this endless cycle. For those people content to be reborn again and again, this isn't an issue. And honestly there is nothing wrong with that at all I guess.

 

It's just I want the F*#$ out, I've had enough, I want to make this life my last one. I wonder if there are any others who feel the same.

Edited October 27, 2007 by mwight

[Cameron]

Question where do you think you will go after you accomplish this goal of making this life your last one..what do you expect or anticipate you would find in the future existence that is not alreay here now?

 

Seriously..I am interested..no joking either.

[mantis]

a droplet will fall back into the ocean

 

^ for you cameron

[mwight]

Question where do you think you will go after you accomplish this goal of making this life your last one..what do you expect or anticipate you would find in the future existence that is not alreay here now?

 

Seriously..I am interested..no joking either.

 

Perhaps nothing, perhaps an endless void, eternal non-existence, eternal sleep. I really could care less as long and the cycle of birth and death is ceased. I am just tired, of playing this game, putting on this mask every day, pretending, acting my part in this cosmic joke. I absolutely at the core of my being do not want to be here. That is why I seek liberation.

 

My eyes are opened "just" enough to know how unreal this "reality" is. Living in a play, being an actor, having to put on faces to interact with others, knowing none of this is really real.

[Cameron]

Hmmmm...I don't want to say too much here..but something Adyashanti once said comes to mind.

 

Something like this..loose quote,

 

"What if the problem that you imagine there to be doesn't exist. And the thing that is bothering you is going to last forever. How would this change your attitude if whatever your dealing with now you have to deal with forever."

 

Something like that.

[VeeCee]

Perhaps nothing, perhaps an endless void, eternal non-existence, eternal sleep. I really could care less as long and the cycle of birth and death is ceased. I am just tired, of playing this game, putting on this mask every day, pretending, acting my part in this cosmic joke. I absolutely at the core of my being do not want to be here. That is why I seek liberation.

 

My eyes are opened "just" enough to know how unreal this "reality" is. Living in a play, being an actor, having to put on faces to interact with others, knowing none of this is really real.

 

I know nothing about this subject really - but it seems to me that not wanting to come back almost guarantees that you will come back. After all - aren't you here to learn something, and learning it is what keeps you from coming back?

[mwight]

I know nothing about this subject really - but it seems to me that not wanting to come back almost guarantees that you will come back. After all - aren't you here to learn something, and learning it is what keeps you from coming back?

 

 

I am sure if I become enlightened, I will have learned all I need to. Right now it seems that reaching level 64+ in the lei shan dao is the most realistic and fastest method to this end. Maybe I wont make it, I am getting rather old, and poor. However I am going to give it my best shot.

Edited October 27, 2007 by mwight

[mantis]

heaven and hell are right in front of you, choose wisely.

[mwight]

heaven and hell are right in front of you, choose wisely.

 

To be honest if I had a choice I would choose neither Heaven nor Hell, neither pleasure nor pain. IMHO both are illusory and temporary. I want eternal non-existence, rest, voidness, if there is even such a state.

Edited October 28, 2007 by mwight

[Lozen]

I want

 

maybe that's the problem...

[LDiR]

First, I'll discuss my experiences with firearms. I bought a semi-automatic .40 caliber Beretta a few years back, and though I had bought it outwardly as an adventure in 'fun', I think now that I specifically purchased it as a suicide weapon. I never got close to comfortable handling the thing, and I handled it every weekend for about four months straight. I was never comfortable with it, whether it was firing or just having it around me. After my near-suicide with the handgun I sold it as an act of 'turning myself around'. I still kept a 12 gauge mossberg home defender with shells for home defense. I even had my own plan of attack since I knew the most likely entry point for any home invaders. I was never comfortable with having the shotgun around either, so recently I sold that as well. My current way of looking at it is that owning a gun is not for me. I still own several knives and a retractable baton, but no firearms.

 

Cameron, I guess I'd say that the feeling you get from being around a firearm is something you shouldn't ignore. It may not be 'negative energy' or 'low energy', but it certainly has a negative impact on you. As for the inherent evil of guns, I don't think that it exists. Guns are tools. Yes, they are tools of destruction, but so are cars, medicines, baseball bats, and even belief systems if they are put to the wrong applications. It's all about intent. Gunshots are not always fatal, and if used wisely a firearm can be a very efficient way of putting a stop to an attack without killing the attacker. I finally had attached such a negative feeling to my handgun that I knew I'd never be comfortable using it, and I felt my discomfort my lead to doing more damage than I intended when I shook while I shot and the change in trajectory of the barrell caused me to hit someone else, or hit the right person in the wrong spot.

 

First and foremost it's a personal preference, from there you can decide if you are comfortable owning a gun. I'd recommend going to the gun club and trying it out. You might find that you really enjoy firing guns. I have a friend who says that he goes weekly because it 'centers' him the way church seemed to when he was younger. I found it to be very 'unbalancing' personally.

 

-LDiR