Taoism have karmic laws like Buddhism?

[topaz]

In Buddhism we are told that rebirth in good or not good realms depends on our actions in this life. 

 

Does Taoism have as its goal the same cessation of rebirth that would give rise to karmic laws?  

 

I think it does if my reading of The Secret of the Golden Flower is correct.

 

But does Taoism use a different value system to achieve that?

[soaring crane]

Pure Tao philosophy recognizes no such concept.

[Apech]

...but in later Daoist schools the idea of karma was accepted.

[PLB]

If I am a soul who gets reborn then this life is one chapter in a long novel.

If this is the only dance before the finite moon, then life is a very short story. 

The difference is there no matter who believes who said what about it:

Expectations.

[Brian]

When we travel, we often find ourselves carrying the bags we've packed.

[Michael Sternbach]

...but in later Daoist schools the idea of karma was accepted.

 

Hi Apech,

 

Do you have any references for that? (If possible, online ones?)

[子泰]

.

Edited August 20, 2015 by 子泰

[dust]

In Buddhism we are told that rebirth in good or not good realms depends on our actions in this life.

 

Buddhism also tells us to use our own logic and experience to decide what to believe, not just relying on teachings, right?

 

 

The Zhuangzi chapter  《 至樂 》 Perfect Enjoyment gets across an idea of life and death rooted in Dao.

 

 

http://terebess.hu/english/chuangtzu2.html#1

http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/perfect-enjoyment

 

 

"When she first died, was it possible for me to be singular and not affected by the event? But I reflected on the commencement of her being. She had not yet been born to life; not only had she no life, but she had no bodily form; not only had she no bodily form, but she had no breath. During the intermingling of the waste and dark chaos, there ensued a change, and there was breath; another change, and there was the bodily form; another change, and there came birth and life. There is now a change again, and she is dead. The relation between these things is like the procession of the four seasons from spring to autumn, from winter to summer. There now she lies with her face up, sleeping in the Great Chamber; and if I were to fall sobbing and going on to wall for her, I should think that I did not understand what was appointed (for all)."

 

 

"The seeds of things have mysterious workings. In the water they become Break Vine, on the edges of the water they become Frog's Robe. If they sprout on the slopes they become Hill Slippers. If Hill Slippers get rich soil, they turn into Crow's Feet. The roots of Crow's Feet turn into maggots and their leaves turn into butterflies. Before long the butterflies are transformed and turn into insects that live under the stove; they look like snakes and their name is Ch'u-t'o. After a thousand days, the Ch'u-t'o insects become birds called Dried Leftover Bones. The saliva of the Dried Leftover Bones becomes Ssu-mi bugs and the Ssu-mi bugs become Vinegar Eaters. I-lo bugs are born from the Vinegar Eaters, and Huang-shuang bugs from Chiu-yu bugs. Chiu-yu bugs are born from Mou-jui bugs and Mou-jui bugs are born from Rot Grubs and Rot Grubs are born from Sheep's Groom. Sheep's Groom couples with bamboo that has not sprouted for a long while and produces Green Peace plants. Green Peace plants produce leopards and leopards produce horses and horses produce men. Men in time return again to the mysterious workings. So all creatures come out of the mysterious workings and go back into them again."

[Marblehead]

In my understanding Soaring Crane is correct,

 

but then,

 

Apech is correct if we consider Religious Taoism where Buddism is incorporated into the Religion.

 

Alchemic Taoism has the concept of immortality which is a little bit like reincarnation.

[Daeluin]

In Buddhism we are told that rebirth in good or not good realms depends on our actions in this life. 

 

Does Taoism have as its goal the same cessation of rebirth that would give rise to karmic laws?  

 

I think it does if my reading of The Secret of the Golden Flower is correct.

 

But does Taoism use a different value system to achieve that?

 

Study of the principles that have come to be associated with Dao-ism yields similar understandings of karma and reincarnation, without the noise and complication that can result in contrivance and confusion. The "Dao" itself is the origin of all, and the idea of returning to the dao is simply dissolving polarity (including the polarity of life and death) and reuniting with unity until one returns to this original root. And of course let us not forget that this original root mysteriously exists hidden everywhere around us.

 

Much of daoist system of values revolves around a very small number of principles which emerge from the daoist understanding of cosmology. From the dao comes something, polarity, change, time, energy, spirit, matter, unfolding following the core principles of the circle, and the circle contains the ebb and flow of the five elemental forces and the inherent expansion and contraction of all things. Almost immediately there are so many interactions we simply refer to them as the 10,000 things. Or, more simply put, from the wuji comes the taiji.

 

One of the core principles is that the true, pure, original nature of something is oft found hidden within the false, contrived conditioned, and weathered. This principle is born in how the wuji transforms into the taiji, in particular the two dots within the taiji. And from this we can see that when beliefs have too narrow of a focus, perhaps because the narrow focus is designed to teach something very specific, it also neglects part of the whole. For example the concept of confucian filial piety can be summed up as the importance of nurturing the web of life. But the classic on filial piety is biased to the human web of life, likely because when it was written that was what was deemed most important. But today we understand just how delicate the entire web of life is, and should extend these principles to nurturing the whole rather than one part of the whole. Without this we are just feeding the ego of humanity and contributing to the destruction of that which nourishes us. But those who follow the dao attempt to use the principles of nature as a model, and as they do not cling as much to these sorts of contrivances, are less likely to be misled by them.

 

And so with the concepts of karma and reincarnation, it just makes logical sense. When something changes, there is a rippling forth as one change begets many changes. These ripples eventually return to their origin, following the circular nature of the dao. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. When things change, they are reshaped, and each of us exist both in our "selves," and in the shapes of the changes we have influenced. A horse is only a horse because of everything that is not a horse. I am only me because of what is not me. And yet I constantly interact and send what is me into everything that is not me, tying my life to it. In particular, tying my life to these plants and trees, these people, this earth, these shapings of my personality as reflected in the changes I imprint upon the world. And then when all the inner parts of me can no longer hold me together, I die and these different parts dissipate, separating from each other, drawn to where their unique gravity tugs strongest, even as they retain the patterns I have imprinted upon them. If I were to strengthen my whole and dissolve the patterns I have projected into the world (simply by letting them return to me and dissolving them without sending them back out, simply following where drawn without doing), perhaps I would no longer be distinguished as something separate from the whole.

 

These patterns we shape ourselves into in this dance of act and react, this is karma. We don't need any concepts of "heaven" and "hell" to work with, we can simply see that this shaping of pattern will be where we are drawn to, like gravity. And that this unique pattern we have created will determine how and where and when our different parts will be able to reassemble into something able to achieve deeper connection to the whole again. Some might call this reincarnation, or in a more open ended sense, transmigration. The possibilities are endless, and what actually happens depends on how things are shaped and how that shape is able to fit into other shapes.

 

So "Daoists" value simplicity, and when relying on constructs to understand the world, attempt to hold to a very simple (yet profound) subset of constructs that can be used to explain the complexity in everything. In this way it is possible to integrate within the "false" while holding to the "true."

[Apech]

Hi Apech, Do you have any references for that? (If possible, online ones?)

 

Here's one which I found with a quick google - I don't vouch for it but have read books on Internal Alchemy where karma is mentioned ...

 

 

External alchemy, which concerned itself with the discovery of a mineral compound to achieve immortality, faded away because of continued failure and the numerous poisonings that had occurred. Internal alchemy, however, flourished and became woven together with Confucian ethics and Buddhist values to create a synthesis that survives to this day. The Complete Reality School and the Action and Karma Taoism movements were at the forefront of this fusion of ideas. Today, it is sometimes difficult to tell where one religion ends and the other begins such is totality of their union. Over the centuries, times of political upheaval often heralded a shake up of Taoism and its many, many sects.

 

http://www.taoism.net/supplement/history.htm

[shanlung]

In Buddhism we are told that rebirth in good or not good realms depends on our actions in this life. 

 

Does Taoism have as its goal the same cessation of rebirth that would give rise to karmic laws?  

 

 

Ctrl C-V  ( with a bit more embellishment)

 

 

 

thedaobums.com/topic/16408-is-your-method-really-working/

 

 

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

There is a great little book written by John Blofeld, who visited China in the 1930's and 40's - researching Buddhism - and Taoism. 

 

After commenting to a Taoist recluse in the White Cloud Monastery that "...of the many wise hermits encountered during my wanderings, the few who had betrayed signs of being, as I fancied, closest to illumination had almost all been Buddhist." - the recluse wondered if even one of them surpassed the Taoist recluse known as Tseng Lao-weng. 

 

Arrangements were made for Blofeld to meet Lao-weng, what follows is part of their conversation.

 

***

 

"Venerable, it is just that, as most of my teachers are Buddhist, I am ignorant about what Taoists mean by such terms as wisdom and illumination, and about their methods of approaching the Tao." 

 

He laughed. "How strange. Can there be two kinds of wisdom, two kinds of illumination, Taoist and Buddhist? Surely the experience of truth must be the same for all? As to approaching the Tao, be sure that demons and executioners, let alone Buddhists, are as close to it as can be. The one impossible thing is to get a finger's breadth away from it. Do you suppose that some people are nearer to it than others? Is a bird closer to the air than a tortoise or a cat? The Tao is closer to you than the nose on your face; it is only because you can tweak your nose that you think otherwise. Asking about our approach to the Tao is like asking a deep-sea fish how it approaches the water. It is just a matter of recognizing what has been inside, outside and all around from the first. Do you understand?" 

 

"Yes, I believe I do. Certainly my Buddhist teachers have taught me that there is no attaining liberation, but only attaining recognition of what one has always been from the first." 

 

"Excellent! Your teachers, then, are true sages. You are a worthy disciple, so why brave the bitter cold to visit an ordinary old fellow? You would have learnt as much at your own fireside." 

 

"Venerable, please don’t laugh at me! I accept your teaching that true sages have but the one goal. Still, here in China, there are Buddhists and there are also Taoists. Manifestly they differ; since the goal is one, the distinction must lie in their methods of approach" 

 

"So you are hungry not for wisdom but for knowledge! What a pity! Wisdom is almost as satisfying as good millet-gruel, whereas knowledge has less body to it than tepid water poured over old tea-leaves; but if that is the fare you have come for, I can give you as much as your mistreated belly will hold. What sort of old tea-leaves do Buddhists use, I wonder! We Taoists use all sorts. Some swallow medicine-balls as big as pigeon's eggs or drink tonics by the jug, live upon unappetizing diets, take baths at intervals governed by esoteric numbers, breathe in and out like asthmatic dragons, or jump about like Manchu bannermen hardening themselves for battle - all this discomfort just for the sake of a few extra decades of life! And why? To gain more time to find what has never been lost! 

 

And what of those pious recluses who rattle mallets against wooden-fish drums from dusk to dawn, groaning out liturgies like cholera-patients excreting watery dung? They are penitents longing to rid themselves of a burden they never had. These people do everything imaginable, including swallowing pills made from the vital fluids secreted by the opposite sex and lighting fires in their bellies to make the alchemic cauldrons boil. I shall have to talk of such follies for hours, if you really want a full list of Taoist methods. These method-users resemble mountain streams a thousand leagues from the sea. Ah, how they chatter and gurgle, bubble and boil, rush and eddy, plunging over precipices in spectacular fashion! How angrily they pound against the boulders and suck down their prey in treacherous whirl-pools! But, as the streams broaden, they grow quieter and more purposeful. They become rivers - ah, how calm, how silent! How majestically they sweep towards their goal, giving no impression of swiftness and, as they near the ocean, seeming not to move at all! 

 

While noisy mountain streams are reminiscent of people chattering about the Tao and showing-off spectacular methods, rivers remind one of experienced men, taciturn, doing little, but doing it decisively; outwardly still, yet sweeping forward faster than you know. Your teachers have offered you wisdom; they why waste time acquiring knowledge? Methods! Approaches! Need the junk-master steering towards the sea, with the sales of his vessel billowing in the wind, bother his head about alternative modes of propulsion - oars, paddles, punt-poles, tow-ropes, engines and all the rest? Any sort of vessel, unless it founders or pitches you overboard, is good enough to take you to the one and only sea." 

 

The secret and the sublime: Taoist Mysteries and Magic ~ John Blofeld

 

Idiotic Taoist full of puerile curiosity as to what bad actions and burden  do you think you have be that real or self inflicted!

[Aeran]

^While I found that passage very interesting as an argument for not allowing yourself to be distracted by other paths once you've found one which you know to be valid (which is an entirely different topic to the one raised by the OP), I'm not sure what you're trying to get at by posting it in response to the original question.

 

The OP asked a fairly straightforward question (although the answer is less straightforward, I imagine), responding with a long quote to the effect of  "all paths leading to the same location" doesn't really answer his question at all.

 

Universalism has it's place, but to take the metaphor used in your quote and run with it, it's very easy to talk about how all boats lead to the same ocean when you're swimming in that ocean (except, importantly, for those boats which founder or pitch you overboard).

 

For someone thousands of kilometers inland who's only just encountering water for the first time, and cannot imagine an ocean, who is in the process of seeking out a boat which will not only have to carry him forward without foundering or pitching him overboard or failing during his journey in some other way, but which will be his home, ideally, for the rest of his present life*, and so must be suited to that particular individual's needs, then the question of the nature of boats, and how different boats compare to each other and suit the individual, is an incredibly important one. Honestly, I feel it's somewhat condescending to downplay it.

 

 

*(less ideally, he ends up with one of those faulty boats and finds himself stuck or drowning and reborn back inland before ever reaching the ocean, or stranded on the side of the stream hoping for rescue).

Edited August 4, 2015 by Aeran

[doc benway]

The OP is looking for knowledge.

Unfortunately, all the Idiotic Taoist has to offer is wisdom...

[topaz]

Pure Tao philosophy recognizes no such concept.

Can you give me a link?

[topaz]

Can you give me a link?

Don't know how to use multiquote.

Edited August 4, 2015 by topaz

[topaz]

The OP is looking for knowledge.

Unfortunately, all the Idiotic Taoist has to offer is wisdom...

Well, isn't the dichotomy irrelevant if not, to the wise person, non-existent?

 

The question concerns the outside of our being, in other words the acts we commit in the world especially to other people. Can these effect how or if we will escape rebirth, or if reborn, in what realm as the Buddhists say?

 

Meditation in certain Buddhist schools (Theravada) is supposed to achieve this. If we achieve nibbana then we are told, in works like the Middle Length Discourses, that we have no more need of material life.

 

But this is contradicted by other Buddhist texts that say the deeds we commit in earthly life determine the realm we will be reborn into.

 

This relates to practice. What are we trying to achieve in meditation: nibbana/nirvana? Once we have achieved that, how can the actions we commit in earthly existence change that?

 

And those value judgments of actions are often man-made, so how can we judge if an action is good or bad and will consign us to the realm of the petas for example?

Edited August 4, 2015 by topaz

[soaring crane]

Can you give me a link?

nope

[flowconduit]

Rebirth is a linear idea, the existence is fundamentally non-linear. When you look at the non-linear from a linear perspective it truly appears as if there was such a thing is rebirth but fundamentally there is only multi-birth as everything is actually happening simultaneously

Edited August 4, 2015 by flowconduit

[Daeluin]

Pure Tao philosophy recognizes no such concept.

 

As I understand this, "pure tao philosophy" is focused on returning to dao, to being whole and real, flowing through time and life like water returning to the ocean from the mountains. When the water is non-attached, the return is that much quicker. When the water is attached, it slows, gets mixed with sediment, and may take much longer to return. Knowledge is endless, but our lives have limits. So part of returning to dao is a surrender to the journey without getting caught up by side paths. Those who know, don't speak; those who speak, don't know. When we surrender to the tao, we are one with all knowledge. When we express this knowledge as words and concepts, it is ever incomplete, even as our expression is a use of inferior power.

 

The heart knows the way through the karmic web. All we need to do is follow the heart back to the mysterious center. If we get caught up in the science of karma, it is more likely this knowledge will be used by the ego to help determine the best way to unravel the karma, getting all caught up in what is right or wrong, and will take that much longer to surrender.

 

Not sure if this is what soaring crane meant though.

[Apech]

nope

 

 

Is this why they call you Mr. Helpful?  

[soaring crane]

Is this why they call you Mr. Helpful?  

 

Herr Hilfreich :-)

 

It's easy enough to search the ancient, pre-buddhist roots of Dao science. And you know you said all that needs be said in your reply to my first post haha

[Apech]

Obviously as 'karma' is a Sanskrit term it's origin is in the Vedas.  That is it is integral to Indian philosophy.  Buddhism adopted it but changed the meaning subtly to make it an ethical position around 'right action'.  It's route to China was through the spread of Buddhism.  Certain philosophical positions of Han Dynasty and Warring States Daoism made the assimilation of Buddhism quite 'easy' but of course they changed each other - with Daoism taking on some of the Buddhist approach and Buddhism morphing into Ch'an /Zen.

 

'Pure? Daoism then would not have karma as such.  The ethical basis to Daoism was then not to do with action - result which is the meaning of karma but to do with closeness or otherwise to the Dao - the way of things if you like ... ethics only occurring when the way had been departed from ... so it is a kind of non-ethic.

 

However if you take the pure meaning of karma as action - result then it has proven to be a very useful idea which is a very helpful way of understanding the world and how to act in it.  And as such is not necessarily Buddhist or otherwise but more like common sense - this is providing you get rid of the fanciful parts of some ideas about it.  For instance many scientist would not have a problem with it and also I believe many Christians accept something like karma even though it is not part of their doctrine.  And if they do - then it doesn't make them any less Christian and by analogy if a Song or Tang dynasty Daoist talks about karma it doesn't make them any less Daoist.  

 

Well this is my opinion of course.

[soaring crane]

my first post was inspired by this: Does Taoism have as its goal the same cessation of rebirth that would give rise to karmic laws?

 

Karma is something that can be fit into many molds, including modern physics, but rebirth? not so much.

[Apech]

my first post was inspired by this: Does Taoism have as its goal the same cessation of rebirth that would give rise to karmic laws?

 

Karma is something that can be fit into many molds, including modern physics, but rebirth? not so much.

 

Accept Jesus into your heart and you will be born again.