Taoism have karmic laws like Buddhism?

[Brian]

Not one for quotes usually but :

Can't say I've ever hear of him but...

 

[Apech]

Can't say I've ever hear of him but...

 

 

 

No I hadn't either ... just found this by googling around.

[topaz]

'Pure? Daoism then would not have karma as such.  The ethical basis to Daoism was then not to do with action - result which is the meaning of karma but to do with closeness or otherwise to the Dao - the way of things if you like ... ethics only occurring when the way had been departed from ... so it is a kind of non-ethic.

 

However if you take the pure meaning of karma as action - result then it has proven to be a very useful idea which is a very helpful way of understanding the world and how to act in it.  And as such is not necessarily Buddhist or otherwise but more like common sense - this is providing you get rid of the fanciful parts of some ideas about it.  

The Buddhists are quite clear I think, saying that one's action in this life determine if and how one will be reborn. That is not common sense.

 

One way we can veer from the Tao and also produce bad karma for ourselves is becoming attached to the actions of others, i.e. letting the emotions/intentions of others toward us determine our actions. We commit acts of revenge or anger that however effective set us on a path we do not like.

[topaz]

 

Daoism hints more at the ultimate inward and outward emptiness, without the frills that Buddhism tends to go for. It's all just the Dao doing itself. The Dao and the 10,000 things seemingly co-exist but it's all just the Dao. There's no "you" in here to speak of, you're not in control because no one is at the steering wheel. Sinking into the Way and watching the grand masterpiece unfold without any help from "anyone" is kind of the point. Buddhism gets this, but then adds unnecessarily layers like karma. There ultimately is no karma. How can there be when there's no "you" except that which you've created and identified with?

This sounds close to the Buddhist idea of non-self.

[topaz]

 

That is to say that Religious Taoism was already saturated with Buddhist philosophy and religion for about 1800 years. 

 

But all that happened after the death of Lao Tzu (if such a person ever lived) and Chuang Tzu.

 

And I have already stated that most Religious Taoists are both Buddhists and Taoists.  Therefore it is understandable that there would be Buddhist concepts in "The Secret of the Golden Flower.

Simply to cite the years a book was written noting that another tradition existed in the same culture at the same time does not really prove the content of the book was Buddhist and not Taoist. Or that the text was corrupted or invalid.

 

It may be "understandable" but it may not be in fact the case.

Edited August 29, 2015 by topaz

[Marblehead]

Well, yes, you are trying to debunk the text.

Not try.  I did.  However, others will form their own opinion.

[Geof Nanto]

Simply to cite the years a book was written noting that another tradition existed in the same culture at the same time does not really prove the content of the book was Buddhist and not Taoist. Or that the text was corrupted or invalid.

 

It may be "understandable" but it may not be in fact the case.

 

I agree that The Secret of the Golden Flower is a thoroughly Daoist text. However I also agree with Marblehead that no concept of karma or rebirth can be found in classical Daoism. These ideas were simply not part of the ancient Chinese worldview. It wasn't until the beginnings of the Period of Disunion (220-589 AD) and from the Tang dynasty to the present that Daoists increasing adopted the Buddhist influenced belief in karma and rebirth. 

 

So the reality is that the majority of Daoists do believe in karma and rebirth but certainly not all do. Daoism is such diverse tradition any generalisations are problematical. However I don't like Marblehead's assertion that "most Religious Taoists are both Buddhists and Taoists" in that it implies that the only real Daoists are classical Daoists and disregards the fact that Daoism has evolved into something vastly more diverse than what is contained in the texts of classical Daoism.  Also the division of Daoism into 'Philosophical Taoism' and 'Religious Taoism' is considered by many to be a modern Western misunderstanding of Chinese Daoism.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Yueya

[Apech]

I agree that The Secret of the Golden Flower is a thoroughly Daoist text. However I also agree with Marblehead that no concept of karma or rebirth can be found in classical Daoism. These ideas were simply not part of the ancient Chinese worldview. It wasn't until the beginnings of the Period of Disunion (220-589 AD) and from the Tang dynasty to the present that Daoists increasing adopted the Buddhist influenced belief in karma and rebirth. 

 

So the reality is that the majority of Daoists do believe in karma and rebirth but certainly not all do. Daoism is such diverse tradition any generalisations are problematical. However I don't like Marblehead's assertion that "most Religious Taoists are both Buddhists and Taoists" in that it implies that the only real Daoists are classical Daoists and disregards the fact that Daoism has evolved into something vastly more diverse than what is contained in the texts of classical Daoism.  Also the division of Daoism into 'Philosophical Taoism' and 'Religious Taoism' is considered by many to be a modern Western misunderstanding of Chinese Daoism.

 

There is a fundamental problem with the western study of both Daoism and Buddhism.  That is the analysis on the basis of a putative pure or original form which is usually thought of as being expressed in certain texts e.g. the TTC and Zhuangzi for Daoism and the Pali Canon for Buddhism.  This way of thinking actually comes from the European Enlightenment when Christian scholars wished to throw off the dogma of the Catholic Church by going back to 'original' Gospels in Greek and Aramaic.

 

If you take the broader view of Daoism that is that it is very ancient beginning with the I Ching sages (FuXi and so on) and the Dao or way was an expression adopted to express the nature of the changes, part of divinatory and shamanist practices of very earliest periods of history - then texts like the TTC just become particular expressions later down the line responding to the conditions of the time -  it is a Daoist Text but not the Daoist text.  Using it to project back some kind of original and 'pure' form is not legitimate.

 

To use the case in point - if Tang Dynasty Daoists on examining the idea of karma and apply it to their practice then karma becomes a Daoist concept, in the same way as Dao becomes a Buddhist concept in the hands of the Ch'an and Zen Buddhists.

[Marblehead]

 However I don't like Marblehead's assertion that "most Religious Taoists are both Buddhists and Taoists" in that it implies that the only real Daoists are classical Daoists and disregards the fact that Daoism has evolved into something vastly more diverse than what is contained in the texts of classical Daoism.  Also the division of Daoism into 'Philosophical Taoism' and 'Religious Taoism' is considered by many to be a modern Western misunderstanding of Chinese Daoism.

That's okay.  I'll forgive you.

[Aaron]

I have gone from a militant Taoist to a Taoist/Vedanta/Buddhist. Most of the followers of Taoism are also followers of Buddhism and traditional Chinese practices as well. The West tends to be rigid in their ideas regarding religion, the whole, there can be only one belief. I was like that, but now I've learned some amazing things from so many different sources, it's hard for me to believe only one religion or philosophy has all the answers. Also I've tried to express the notion of philosophical Taoism to Chinese and they look at me like I'm crazy. Anyways, in the end do what you need to and allow yourself the chance to grow when you need to. Don't listen to those people who say "yae" or "nae", because more often than not they have no clue what's really going on. 

[WilliamChan]

Part of the Taoism talks about 承負, which is a concept of karma too but it is handed down from generation to generation, which means I shoulder up those from my parents and ancestors.

 

One of the reason is that Taoism focuses on Materials in the world.  I think this can be explained by something like DNA. 

[Marblehead]

Yes, Taoism is a much more materialistic belief system than is Buddhism. 

 

I never got into ancestor worship so I have nothing to say to that.

[Michael Sternbach]

Yes, Taoism is a much more materialistic belief system than is Buddhism. 

 

It can be whatever you want it to be.

[Marblehead]

It can be whatever you want it to be.

Belly laughs.  I wasn't expecting that but it is well said anyhow.

 

(Yes, I still have a problem with placing limiters.  But I have gotten better over the years.)

[shanlung]

Part of the Taoism talks about 承負, which is a concept of karma too but it is handed down from generation to generation, which means I shoulder up those from my parents and ancestors.

 

One of the reason is that Taoism focuses on Materials in the world.  I think this can be explained by something like DNA. 

 

Ah!  You must tell me more of your brand of Taoism.  

 

The Taoism that I only know guide me only to eat when hungry and drink when thirsty and fornicate when horny.  I must have missed the forest for the trees and missed an entire congregation of dancing gorillas in the bush

 

 

Yes, Taoism is a much more materialistic belief system than is Buddhism. 

 

I never got into ancestor worship so I have nothing to say to that.

 

On the other hand, Taoism might be the most materialistic belief system.

Buddhism dangled the promise of Nirvana in front of you.

Islam hold the possibility of 72 virgins to entice you.

Christianity offer harps, wings and angels for you to go and sing eternal glorifications to God.

 

Taoism promised me no less than the entire Universe will be merged into me and be with me.

I have that Nirvana and harps and angels and the 72 virgins as well

 

Taoist Master Tseng Lao Weng words

 

Plunge the finite into the infinite and, though only one remains, the 

finite, far from being diminished, takes on the stature of infinity. 

Such perception will bring you face to face with the true secret 

cherished by all the accomplished sages.  The mind of one who returns 

to the Source thereby BECOMES the Source.  Your own mind is DESTINED 

TO BECOME THE UNIVERSE ITSELF!' 

 

 

 

Taoistic Idiot dreaming of sitting on Pillars of Creation and watching  a couple of black holes spiralling to their death and rebirth

 

 

[Marblehead]

Christianity offer harps, wings and angels for you to go and sing eternal glorifications to God.

I occasionally bug my Christian friend about that.  Up there with all those beautiful angels and he won't be able to touch any of them.  For me that would be hell.

[shanlung]

I occasionally bug my Christian friend about that.  Up there with all those beautiful angels and he won't be able to touch any of them.  For me that would be hell.

 

Do a Carter and be satisfied just with lust in the heart.

 

Or be a Taoist and have them all coming to you, 72 virgins and angels.  You can ask them

to leave the harps at the door.  And in Taoist heaven, remember the prime rule.

Everything in moderation.

 

 

Idiotic Taoist

[Marblehead]

Do Muslim women get 72 "cherry boys" when they go to heaven?

[shanlung]

Do Muslim women get 72 "cherry boys" when they go to heaven?

 

It is not good even to hazard a guess.  Information must be given first hand or it will just be like pissing into the wind aka

HOMO SAPIENS NON URINAT IN VENTUM

 

3 main hurdles that prevent me from answering you.

 

I need to go for a sex change, something I do not care to do 

I need to be a muslim but I love to eat pork and  as I do not care to don a hijab

I need to keel over, which might then prevent me from reporting here first hand unless you use an Ouja board to contact me

 

Perhaps Google can be asked, but only if you know all 3 conditions above fulfilled by Google

 

 

Taoistic Idiot not inclined to wear hijab and who love to eat pork

[Marblehead]

 

Taoistic Idiot not inclined to wear hijab and who love to eat pork

Well, you did respond so I must give you credit for that.

 

The answer, of course, is "No" but more important is why the answer is "No".

[shanlung]

The answer, of course, is "No" but more important is why the answer is "No".

 

Hmmmm.. .. 

You seem so definative on that NO that  I felt must be directly from your first hand experience.

Perhaps your fixation on short skirts and bikinis derived from one of your former life where you wore them, maybe under your chador and burka.

 

Do not even need to use IChing or Ouija board to ask you as you freely tell all here your experiences.

I tend to agree with your aint got no 72 cherry boys up there as otherwise, why should you come away from that place which must have been paradise for you.

 

Idiiotic Taoist scratching his head in wonderment certain that  marblehead is not  HOMO SAPIENS NON URINAT IN VENTUM

[Marblehead]

Strange response.  Hehehe.

 

That Latin saying is one of my favorites although I have always used my English version and had never known the Latin origin until I just now looked.

 

My version:  "Doing (whatever) would be like pissing into the wind."

 

Well, I have had many experiences but I cannot recall any where I word either a bikini or a short skirt.  But then, I could be in denial that I am truly a Buddhist.  (I doubt that though.)

 

But then, virgins are so inexperienced.  I would rather have 72 Belly Dancers.  More experience and satisfaction would be found there.

 

I think I have strayed from the path of this thread.  Oh well.  Not the first time.

 

But then, Taoism is all encompassing so what can I say?

[manitou]

Did someone call for a bellydancer?

[Marblehead]

Did someone call for a bellydancer?

Did you see the video in that other thread?  What was it?  Oh!, I forget.

[manitou]

You forgot??

 

How could you possibly forget the image of nicely powdered cellulite gyrating 12 different ways?