Taoism have karmic laws like Buddhism?

[Marblehead]

Accept Jesus into your heart and you will be born again.

Else you will burn in Hell!

[Aeran]

Rebirth is a linear idea, the existence is fundamentally non-linear. When you look at the non-linear from a linear perspective it truly appears as if there was such a thing is rebirth but fundamentally there is only multi-birth as everything is actually happening simultaneously

 

But as long as we exist in a state of dual consciousness (which is to say, as long as we exist at all, since once we're completely free of duality, 'we' cease to exist as anything distinct, by definition), we experience reality in a linear fashion.

 

At least, that's my understanding.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Aeran

[flowconduit]

But as long as we exist in a state of dual consciousness (which is to say, as long as we exist at all, since once we're completely free of duality, 'we' cease to exist as anything distinct, by definition), we experience reality in a linear fashion.

At least, that's my understanding.

Yeah true, my understanding is that everything that is not the One experiences linear time to some degree

[Aaron]

In my research, although limited to most, I never came across any indication that the Tao Te Ching refers to anything similar to karma in the sense of rebirth, however the idea that our actions effect what happens to us is a theme that runs throughout the Tao Te Ching. I think we forget that for most Taoists the Tao Te Ching isn't the end all meet all for Taoism, there are lots of other texts respected and studied, and in those texts, whether influenced by Buddhism or not, there is a link to the more contemporary notion of karma. 

[Apech]

my first post was inspired by this: Does Taoism have as its goal the same cessation of rebirth that would give rise to karmic laws?

 

Karma is something that can be fit into many molds, including modern physics, but rebirth? not so much.

 

Yes rebirth is more difficult I agree - and also interestingly an intuitive thought about existence held by many even though their main world view may not encompass it.  While I think it's true that you will struggle to find any reference to rebirth in the TTC or Zhuangzi ... of course there are those who would argue (like are very own TM) that this is not the original pure Daoism anyway and that is to be found with the I Ching sages of Fu Xi etc.  And even more broadly if you zoom forward  to later Daoism you have the Hun and Po souls and so on which imply that death is not the final destruction and that there is some kind of continuance - if there is continuance within the Dao then presumably it has to go somewhere or become something ... is this a kind of rebirth?

[Marblehead]

 ... is this a kind of rebirth?

Not in my opinion.  I call it transmutation.

[dust]

if you take the pure meaning of karma as action - result then it has proven to be a very useful idea which is a very helpful way of understanding the world and how to act in it.  And as such is not necessarily Buddhist or otherwise but more like common sense

 

As I understand it, karma/kamma originally means 'action', right? (With 'result' implied, because every action has a result?)

 

Cause and effect is a pretty fundamental principle. Almost every way/system of looking at the world recognizes the process.

 

And so when one says something like "This is your karma", it is the same as saying "This is your action" -- "This is your doing". And if one accepts that one is no more than a part of the Greater Action, one might accept that as well as everything they do being (their) karma, everything that happens to them is also (their) karma.

 

Confusion arises because humans have a need for morality, for laying blame around, and for explaining things in ways that make them feel like they have a greater control over their lives than they actually do. So, one day I punch a man, and the next week I fall out of a window, and some say that my fall is a direct result of my punch; that this is all a result of the Cosmic Judiciary called karma -- it 'proves' that my action was immoral, that I have been punished for it, and that if I had just been a better person I wouldn't be in this mess.

 

Sometimes, this could be seen to be true. Without that punch and all consequential actions, I might not have been in the position the next week to fall out of a window. It might even be that the man I punched comes back to push me, that this is a direct punishment; it might look like there is a cosmic policeman making absolutely sure that everything I do, good or bad, is repaid in kind. But of course, I might never see that man again; I might go on to live a happy life free of punishment. There's no Cosmic Judiciary, only an endlessly complex pattern of cause and effect.

 

Then again... if I punch a man, I might end up feeling bad about it. And my guilt could be said to be a karmic punishment. But this view of karma is only going to affect people who give a shit in the first place, so it's not exactly universal.

 

 

As my understanding goes, the Buddhist concept pratityasamutpada, interdependent origination, 缘起, absolutely fits with the Daoist understanding of things. And so the idea of karma as 'action' based on this endlessly complex pattern of cause and effect fits very well with Daoism.

 

And so no, pure Daoist 'theory' does not allow for concepts such as rebirth or reincarnation, let alone the idea that the Cosmic Judiciary is going to turn one into a slug in the next life because one wasn't diligent enough in this life.

[lifeforce]

Can you give me a link?

There is no link, in that there is no concept of karma in original Daoism.

[Marblehead]

There is no link, ...

Oh No!  There is no link.  The end is near.  Maybe there's a missing link?

[Brian]

Oh No! There is no link. The end is near. Maybe there's a missing link?

Perhaps just a coincidence but I recently lost a cufflink.

[Brian]

 

There's the missing link! But I'm not entirely sure that I see the link....

Neither do I -- that's the problem, you see.

[Daeluin]

And so no, pure Daoist 'theory' does not allow for concepts such as rebirth or reincarnation, let alone the idea that the Cosmic Judiciary is going to turn one into a slug in the next life because one wasn't diligent enough in this life.

 

Probably not pure daoist theory, but I do run into a lot of texts talking about various neidan achievements getting your name listed in the book of immortals, removed from the book of life and death, etc, as though there are actual judiciaries running these things... seems a bit contrived, but funny thing is it could be possible that the spiritual hirearchy has actually extended this far. But in that case where did this hirearchy come from? Originally I imagine everything functioned just fine on its own based on natural principles... no need for a Jade Emperor to run things.

[Apech]

Probably not pure daoist theory, but I do run into a lot of texts talking about various neidan achievements getting your name listed in the book of immortals, removed from the book of life and death, etc, as though there are actual judiciaries running these things... seems a bit contrived, but funny thing is it could be possible that the spiritual hirearchy has actually extended this far. But in that case where did this hirearchy come from? Originally I imagine everything functioned just fine on its own based on natural principles... no need for a Jade Emperor to run things.

 

 

Yes it's kind of odd to have a spiritual bureaucracy, especially as I forgot to submit my Immortality Application Form dd7/153647/xv this year and will have to pay a karmic penalty,

[dust]

Probably not pure daoist theory, but I do run into a lot of texts talking about various neidan achievements getting your name listed in the book of immortals, removed from the book of life and death, etc, as though there are actual judiciaries running these things...

 

To be honest, I know I should not be claiming that there is such a thing as "pure Daoist theory" -- let alone that I know what it is! That was arrogant of me. I should perhaps have said "Daoist theory as found in and based around [insert texts] does not allow for...".

 

Well, either way, my Daoism, as found in ZZ and LZ, does not 'allow' for rebirth or a judicial version of karma...

[Brian]

Yes it's kind of odd to have a spiritual bureaucracy, especially as I forgot to submit my Immortality Application Form dd7/153647/xv this year and will have to pay a karmic penalty,

Failure to submit the IAF dd7/153647/xv results in the forfeiture of credit for one net-positive lifecycle and requires completion of IAF dd7/153647/xv/omgwtf/bbq/eleventy-one_j prior to the beginning of the next calendar year. Please submit a TPS report to request a blank IAF dd7/153647/xv/omgwtf/bbq/eleventy-one_j, which must be submitted in triplicate.

 

As always, your mandatory cooperation is appreciated.

[Marblehead]

To be honest, I know I should not be claiming that there is such a thing as "pure Daoist theory" --

No worry.  I do it all the time.  Keep on truckin'.

[Apech]

Failure to submit the IAF dd7/153647/xv results in the forfeiture of credit for one net-positive lifecycle and requires completion of IAF dd7/153647/xv/omgwtf/bbq/eleventy-one_j prior to the beginning of the next calendar year. Please submit a TPS report to request a blank IAF dd7/153647/xv/omgwtf/bbq/eleventy-one_j, which must be submitted in triplicate.

 

As always, your mandatory cooperation is appreciated.

 

 

But I have three Monopoly 'Get Out of Jail Free' cards and a certificate of spiritual purity from Global Merit Inc. and since I was born in a Dragon year I should be exempt the eleventy-one.  Surely?

[Brian]

But I have three Monopoly 'Get Out of Jail Free' cards and a certificate of spiritual purity from Global Merit Inc. and since I was born in a Dragon year I should be exempt the eleventy-one. Surely?

Well, you should have said so earlier!

 

Attach a notarized copy of your purity certificate to your "Get Out of Jail Free" cards, being careful not to bend, fold, spindle or mutilate, and submit them to the Department of Karma & Redundancy Department. Your request will be processed in a timely fashion and you will be notified of the DKRD Review Board's decision within 4 to 6 years.

 

Should you not agree with this decision, you will have 24 hours to submit your appeal in person.

 

Penalties will be applied and interest will begin accruing at Midnight tonight for your convenience.

 

And don't call me Shirley.

[PLB]

Maybe the difference is not so much about the karma as the dharma.

Everyone has stuff they have to balance.

I accept that my life has to do with a lot of stuff that happened before I showed up.

But I balk at accepting responsibility for past lives.

Or if I do accept the responsibility, it is not like agreeing to pay off a debt or something. It becomes a part of life.

I am pretty sure I am alive.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

There is an application for that too?! I just got through Requisition Permit for Lower Dan-Tien Form 81B.1 (the blue one for water-pigs), does this mean it's void or is it possible to recalculate it as detractable from the Estimated Preliminary Income of Qi like it were ordinary Jing-Expenses?

 

I'm loosing my Shen over this every year.

Edited August 6, 2015 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Brian]

There is an application for that too?! I just got through Requisition Permit for Lower Dan-Tien Form 81B.1 (the blue one for water-pigs), does this mean it's void or is it possible to recalculate it as detractable from the Estimated Preliminary Income of Qi like it were ordinary Jing-Expenses?

 

I'm loosing my Shen over this every year.

Yes, non-virtual water-pig Jing-Expenses are deductible in accordance with Prelim-Qi Actuarial Table 81B.1_2015, prorated for accumulated depreciation, but only if you received a gold seal on the blue form approval letter. Otherwise, you need to file the Pre-Heaven Yuan Qi Remittance Form (PHYQRF) version A prior to acceptance of your current-quarter remuneration check.

 

Inquiries should be sent to: [email protected]

 

As always, remember to complete your official satisfaction survey with gold stars in all categories to avoid unnecessary home inspections.

[topaz]

This is the OP.  I hope my purpose in starting this thread (regardless of where other people have taken it) is clear to everyone. 

 

We have our practice (mainly sitting meditation) and our actions in the material world. 

 

Through the practice we seek the cessation of rebirth as it is described by Buddhists (Middle Length Discourses among other texts) or the immortality of of the "ego" as described by Taoists in The Secret of the Golden Flower. 

 

Buddhists also say however in earthly life we have lessons to learn (Tibetans) and that the actions we commit affect what realm we are reborn into (Theravadans). 

 

If as a poster has said, there are no such concepts in original Taoism, then it is just the practice that can achieve immortality for us. 

 

Therefore I think my next stop would be to consult the earlier Taoist works and to study (as was mentioned in one of the threads on sexual desire) Internal Alchemy. 

 

Any references to texts on these 2 subjects would be appreciated. 

Edited August 6, 2015 by topaz

[Marblehead]

Hi Topaz,

 

I do understand your OP question and I do understand the need to ask it.  I always try to interact with others here based on my own opinions and understandings.

 

I have been called many things by various members here, some I have acknowledged and others I have denied.  I am a Philosophical Taoist and also a Materialist.  It is my understanding that in "real life" there is no such thing as reincarnation or immortality.  We have but this one life so we should do the best we can with it because we will not get a second shot at it.

 

I am NOT a Buddhist.  There is a sub-forum here for Buddhist discussions.  But, because many (most?) Religious Taoists are also Buddhists the concepts oftentimes get confused and interlocked.

 

However, as someone else has mentioned, one would be hard pressed to support any concept of reincarnation or immortality based on the Tao Te Ching or the Chuang Tzu.

[lifeforce]

Internal alchemy is a much, much later addition.

The Yijing, DDJ, Zhuangzi, Liezi, Wenzi, Neiye will give you enough to chew on for a thousand years.

[Apech]

We seem to have stumbled into ur-textism.

Edited August 6, 2015 by Apech