The Art of War

[woodcarver]

...by Sun Tzu of course! I don't know how this text is accepted in the community so feel free to delete this topic if it's too despicable. I've always thought it was a text concerning life and death and was about avoiding conflict because it's a waste of resources. It's pretty despicable, though.

 

Right now I'm reading Penguin's John Minford version with all the awesome notes and commentary. Here is an online version without commentary: http://classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html

 

It has been agreed that the Giles translation is fine for discussion from multiple perspectives. It is still encouraged to combine resources.

 

Links to chapters....

Chapter 1: This page!

Chapter 2: http://thedaobums.com/topic/39040-the-art-of-war/page-5#entry640155

 

Shall I start the conversation by noting the importance of chapter 1 in both AOW and TTC?

Edited August 9, 2015 by woodcarver

[Michael Sternbach]

Hey, this is The Dao Bums, not The Dao Wimps. Not to forget that there are lots of martial artists here. The Art of War is a marvelously insightful book. Go ahead with the discussion, you have my blessings.

[thelerner]

I've read it but don't have a copy these days. 

Question- is it against the boards policy to quote a few paragraphs every now and then (its a very short book) so we're all 'literally' on the same page?  I'm guessing there are many versions out there off copyright.   (not that'd want to mess with Sun Tzu )

 

If so, I'd recommend  Woodcarver paste a bit of the section he's thinking of to get more people involved in the discussion.

Edited August 3, 2015 by thelerner

[woodcarver]

I've read it but don't have a copy these days. 

Question- is it against the boards policy to quote a few paragraphs every now and then (its a very short book) so we're all 'literally' on the same page?  I'm guessing there are many versions out there off copyright.   (not that'd want to mess with Sun Tzu )

 

If so, I'd recommend  Woodcarver paste a bit of the section he's thinking of to get more people involved in the discussion.

I would like the answer to this question before I do so.

 

It's available online but I'm not familiar with the translation... http://classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html

[Marblehead]

"The Art of War" itself can be quoted.  Copyright has long time ago expired.  However, translator's introduction, notes, etc will likely still be copy protected so any quoting of that information would be restricted to very short quotes with full acknowledgement of the author and the document it is from.

[woodcarver]

Supremely excellent

Here is chapter 1 from the Giles translation available online, I read it last night and I'm still digesting it   
 

 

I. Laying Plans

1. Sun Tzu said: The art of war is of vital importance to the State.

2. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected.

3. The art of war, then, is governed by five constant factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations, when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

4. These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth; (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.

5,6. The Moral Law causes the people to be in complete accord with their ruler, so that they will follow him regardless of their lives, undismayed by any danger.

7. Heaven signifies night and day, cold and heat, times and seasons.

8. Earth comprises distances, great and small; danger and security; open ground and narrow passes; the chances of life and death.

9. The Commander stands for the virtues of wisdom, sincerely, benevolence, courage and strictness.

10. By method and discipline are to be understood the marshaling of the army in its proper subdivisions, the graduations of rank among the officers, the maintenance of roads by which supplies may reach the army, and the control of military expenditure.

11. These five heads should be familiar to every general: he who knows them will be victorious; he who knows them not will fail.

12. Therefore, in your deliberations, when seeking to determine the military conditions, let them be made the basis of a comparison, in this wise:--

13. (1) Which of the two sovereigns is imbued with the Moral law? (2) Which of the two generals has most ability? (3) With whom lie the advantages derived from Heaven and Earth? (4) On which side is discipline most rigorously enforced? (5) Which army is stronger? (6) On which side are officers and men more highly trained? (7) In which army is there the greater constancy both in reward and punishment?

14. By means of these seven considerations I can forecast victory or defeat.

15. The general that hearkens to my counsel and acts upon it, will conquer: let such a one be retained in command! The general that hearkens not to my counsel nor acts upon it, will suffer defeat:--let such a one be dismissed!

16. While heading the profit of my counsel, avail yourself also of any helpful circumstances over and beyond the ordinary rules.

17. According as circumstances are favorable, one should modify one's plans.

18. All warfare is based on deception.

19. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.

20. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.

21. If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him.

22. If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.

23. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them.

24. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.

25. These military devices, leading to victory, must not be divulged beforehand.

26. Now the general who wins a battle makes many calculations in his temple ere the battle is fought. The general who loses a battle makes but few calculations beforehand. Thus do many calculations lead to victory, and few calculations to defeat: how much more no calculation at all! It is by attention to this point that I can foresee who is likely to win or lose.

[woodcarver]

The Minford commentary includes this excerpt from Edward Young's "Love of Fame"

One to destroy, is murder by the law;
And gibbets keep the lifted hand in awe;
To murder thousands takes a specious name,
War's glorious art, and gives immortal fame.

 

I would also like to shine the AOW spotlight on my current mancrush, Tokugawa Ieyasu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokugawa_Ieyasu

 

He essentially unified Japan by making strategic, non-violent alliances and retreats. Not to be confused, it was still a time period of people getting decimated like insects and handing seppuku out like candy. This famous story about the 3 unifiers of Japan sums up his personality:

Nobunaga, Hideyoshi and Tokugawa were watching a cuckoo bird waiting for it to sing, but the bird wouldn't sing. Nobunaga says "Little bird, if you don't sing I will kill you". Hideyoshi says "Little bird, if you don't sing, I'll make you sing". Then Tokugawa Ieyasu says to the bird "Little bird, if you don't sing I will wait for you to sing".

[Michael Sternbach]

16. While heading the profit of my counsel, avail yourself also of any helpful circumstances over and beyond the ordinary rules.

 

17. According as circumstances are favorable, one should modify one's plans.

Be flexible, adjust to/make use of the circumstances. That sounds quite Daoist to me. It's good advice generally in life.

 

18. All warfare is based on deception.

Ha! Not primarily on showing off your muscles... As many states are prone to do.

 

Again, Daoist thinking here; the (apparently) weak overcoming the (apparently) strong.

 

19. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.

 

20. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.

Sneaky!

 

21. If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him.

Not to meet strength by strength is considered an important principle in many martial arts.

 

22. If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.

Tricky, but it may be effective under certain circumstances. Make him lose his temper, and he will become careless. Careful with this one when fighting the Hulk please.

 

23. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them.

Divide and conquer, in other words!

 

24. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.

This is typical for guerilla warfare. Again, also used in martial arts sometimes. If the opponent is a boxer type, kick his legs etc.

 

25. These military devices, leading to victory, must not be divulged beforehand.

However, the reasons for this are obvious.

 

26. Now the general who wins a battle makes many calculations in his temple ere the battle is fought. The general who loses a battle makes but few calculations beforehand. Thus do many calculations lead to victory, and few calculations to defeat: how much more no calculation at all! It is by attention to this point that I can foresee who is likely to win or lose.

This sound a little less in tune with Daoism (at least if we look at it superficially), in light of its emphasis on spontaneous (non-)action. Yet Sun Tzu leaves no doubt about the importance of preparation. I suggest that we are dealing with a polarity here that warrants further discussion.

 

And the general is supposed to make his battle plan in a temple?!

 

Woodcarver, I hate to break it to you, but your mancrush Tokugawa was a ruthless dictator who established a Fascist rule over Japan under which the slightest deviations from the norm in behaviour could easily lead to the annihilation of oneself, one's family and even one's whole village. The memory of this is deeply ingrained in the Japanese collective psyche. It is the main reason why Japanese society is so rigid and uptight to this day.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Marblehead]

Hi Michael,

And the general is supposed to make his battle plan in a temple?!
 

Consider the "temple" the mind (brain).  In other words, the total plan is in the mind of the general only.  He shares only the information with his subordinates that they need to know in order to accomplish "their" mission.  (No WikiLeaks here.)

 

 

I agree with you that much, but not all, of "The Art of War" is rooted in Daoist concepts.

 

In Vietnam, the North Vietnamese  followed the guidance of "The Art of War" whereas my leaders did not.

 

"The Art of War" used to be a required reading at West Point.  Apparently most of the students slept through those classes.

 

It used to be a required reading for many business majors in college.

 

 

And just as with the TTC, many of the concepts in "The Art of War" can be applied at an individual level when dealing with others.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Marblehead

[woodcarver]

It's the book discussion I've always dreamed of!

This sound a little less in tune with Daoism (at least if we look at it superficially), in light of its emphasis on spontaneous (non-)action. Yet Sun Tzu leaves no doubt about the importance of preparation. I suggest that we are dealing with a polarity here that warrants further discussion.

Yes, this is probably the most extreme form of calculation and "doing" I've ever seen. Desperate times call for desperate measures maybe? This is a book of last resort after all.

And the general is supposed to make his battle plan in a temple?!

The Minford commentary talks about a physical place where commanders would run a type of war simulation. It also mentions that the Dao Sun Tzu is mentioning is not the Dao we're all familiar with but more of the literal meaning of "way" used in Chinese culture for various things like art forms and crafts. The way of painting. 

 

Although!... just about any cultivator of the Dao can see the similarities in philosophy, almost to the T and that's why Marblehead's interpretation is so interesting here. Comments from other commanders in the book are talking about the Dao as we know it as well. Besides, this is Warring States China, the pinnacle of Chinese philosophy, he knew what the Dao was and I recently read that he used the Yijing.

Woodcarver, I hate to break it to you, but your mancrush Tokugawa was a ruthless dictator who established a Fascist rule over Japan under which the slightest deviations from the norm in behaviour could easily lead to the annihilation of oneself, one's family and even one's whole village. The memory of this is deeply ingrained in the Japanese collective psyche. It is the main reason why Japanese society is so rigid and uptight to this day.

Oh he was terrible I'm not denying that, I assure you he is under Mr. Rogers on my list (I'm not the sweater type, though. I look like Dracula). The merciless killing also happened in China, too. Just look at the stories in the Zhuangzi. To be honest, I see a lot of people in today's society that are completely out of control and causing harm. I don't think today's police are being a good warrior class and maybe a mixture of the two would do us nicely. To be totally clear, I align my thinking with Lao Tzu in leaving the population alone to achieve the best society but I don't know if that takes 2015 American egos into consideration. It would be cruel to leave modern people to the dogs.

 

Tokugawa's rise to power truly resembles AOW and I think that deserves acknowledgement and study. As Marblehead said, to use on the individual level. Once he attained power is a different story.

 

15. The general that hearkens to my counsel and acts upon it, will conquer: let such a one be retained in command! The general that hearkens not to my counsel nor acts upon it, will suffer defeat:--let such a one be dismissed!

Here is the Minford translation of this line, I'm considering using it from now on.

Heed my plan,

   Employ me,

   And victory is surely yours;

   I will stay.

 

Do not heed my plan,

   And even if you did employ me,

   You would surely be defeated;

   I will depart.

The commentary mentions how Warring States Strategists were employed like independent contractors and were not permanently aligned to a specific side. Truly fascinating.

 

Somebody please cut me off if I'm using too much Minford material. It's a damn good translation, though and you can get it on Amazon used for a few bucks. I can't recommend it enough.

[Marblehead]

There is a nice documentary of Sun Tzu, don't recall the producers, and it was rather short, I think only one hour, but very well done, in my opinion.  I saw it about two years ago.

[woodcarver]

There is a nice documentary of Sun Tzu, don't recall the producers, and it was rather short, I think only one hour, but very well done, in my opinion.  I saw it about two years ago.

I should watch that before I start talking like I know the guy. Oops!

[Marblehead]

I should watch that before I start talking like I know the guy. Oops!

Belly laughs.  You go ahead on; I quite often talk about things I know little or nothing about.

[Taomeow]

This is a legitimate taoist text included in the taoist canon.  Well worth studying.  For those who do not engage in any wars due to sheer luck of having been born in a peaceful setting (few people throughout history were this lucky -- or are), it is worth contemplating from the POV of how this particular approach "fa ziran," imitates nature.  A really fruitful way to look at nature for those who haven't tried to see it this way.  

[Michael Sternbach]

Hi Michael,

Consider the "temple" the mind (brain).  In other words, the total plan is in the mind of the general only.  He shares only the information with his subordinates that they need to know in order to accomplish "their" mission.  (No WikiLeaks here.)

 

Hi Marblehead,

 

I see, the temple is the general's head (is it made of marble, by any chance? ). And he shares the holy words only with the chosen ones on a "need to know base", of course. There is really nothing new under the sun.

 

I agree with you that much, but not all, of "The Art of War" is rooted in Daoist concepts.

 

Maybe, but you might be having a hard time to demonstrate that - given that Lao Tzu & co. lend themselves to all kinds of interpretation.

 

In Vietnam, the North Vietnamese  followed the guidance of "The Art of War" whereas my leaders did not.

 

"The Art of War" used to be a required reading at West Point.  Apparently most of the students slept through those classes.

 

Strategically speaking, they should have studied The Art of War in and out. Didn't Sun Tzu's write that the secret of victory is to know your enemy as well as yourself?

 

Moreover, they would have learned that looking inconspicuous and taking the opponent by surprise is often a more effective tactic than intimidation by a show of force. A lesson that the US armed forces still haven't brought home. So it remains their tender spot, imo. It's a yin and yang thing that I am talking about.

 

It used to be a required reading for many business majors in college.

 

 

And just as with the TTC, many of the concepts in "The Art of War" can be applied at an individual level when dealing with others.

 

Yes, these texts often talk of universal principles. Therein lies their beauty.

Edited August 6, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Michael Sternbach]

It's the book discussion I've always dreamed of!

 

 

Yes, this is probably the most extreme form of calculation and "doing" I've ever seen. Desperate times call for desperate measures maybe? This is a book of last resort after all.

 

You mean, when the going gets tough, forget about Daoist principles? When the shit hits the fan, forget your Taiji and resort to Muay Thai? Nah, that doesn't convince me...

 

The Minford commentary talks about a physical place where commanders would run a type of war simulation.

 

I wonder, is that how they invented chess?

 

It also mentions that the Dao Sun Tzu is mentioning is not the Dao we're all familiar with but more of the literal meaning of "way" used in Chinese culture for various things like art forms and crafts. The way of painting. 

 

I know what you mean. In that same sense, Japanese arts often have the character for Dao (Do) in their names (Judo, Shodo etc.). Supposedly these are Daoist ways though (if you excuse the pun).

 

Although!... just about any cultivator of the Dao can see the similarities in philosophy, almost to the T and that's why Marblehead's interpretation is so interesting here. Comments from other commanders in the book are talking about the Dao as we know it as well. Besides, this is Warring States China, the pinnacle of Chinese philosophy, he knew what the Dao was and I recently read that he used the Yijing.

 

Interesting. Which raises the question if a direct influence of the Yijing on the AOW can be demonstrated.

[Marblehead]

Maybe, but you might be having a hard time to demonstrate that - given that Lao Tzu & co. lend themselves to all kinds of interpretation.

No, I won't be demonstrating that.  Hehehe.  For me it is just an understanding but I would be unable to support my understanding.

 

It may well be that The Art Of War was written before the TTC was written (compiled).  Therefore it may well be that the TTC drew inspiration from AOW or at least philosophies that existed prior to both The Art Of War and the Tao Te Ching.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Marblehead

[woodcarver]

You mean, when the going gets tough, forget about Daoist principles? When the shit hits the fan, forget your Taiji and resort to Muay Thai? Nah, that doesn't convince me...

I was thinking more along the lines of dropping morning Taiji and picking up combat Taiji. I don't know anything about martial arts so lets not get too crazy here (I'm still shopping for a style). This really brings up the old argument if Daoists should plan at all or just live completely in the moment forever. What is the extent of Lao Tzu's statement of ending a small problem before it gets worse?

 

I wonder, is that how they invented chess?

Indeed. I love chess but to circle back to AOW and Tokugawa, you can't make no-move. It's also argued that it's 90% tactics, just collecting memorized plays.

 

I know what you mean. In that same sense, Japanese arts often have the character for Dao (Do) in their names (Judo, Shodo etc.). Supposedly these are Daoist ways though (if you excuse the pun).

I like puns.

Interesting. Which raises the question if a direct influence of the Yijing on the AOW can be demonstrated.

This is something I would like to know about!

Edited August 5, 2015 by woodcarver

[Michael Sternbach]

I was thinking more along the lines of dropping morning Taiji and picking up combat Taiji. I don't know anything about martial arts so lets not get too crazy here (I'm still shopping for a style).

 

I recommend Combat Taiji. (Although I am often doing it in the morning.)

 

This really brings up the old argument if Daoists should plan at all or just live completely in the moment forever.

 

I had a talk about that with MH some time ago. Perhaps it's time to resume that conversation?

 

What is the extent of Lao Tzu's statement of ending a small problem before it gets worse?

 

I was almost going to mention that in my previous post, then I decided to leave it to you.

 

Although Lao Tzu doesn't talk of excessive planning here necessarily,  the recommendation does share the element of foresight and purposeful action with the latter.

 

Indeed. I love chess but to circle back to AOW and Tokugawa, you can't make no-move.

 

Then again, wu wei is not so much no-action as action with the flow of things.

 

It's also argued that it's 90% tactics, just collecting memorized plays.

 

Good to know. That explains at least partially why Quincy was able to wipe the floor with me when I (newbie) dared playing chess with him (master).

 

I like puns.

 

 

This is something I would like to know about!

 

I hope that this thread will lead to some insights regarding this.

[woodcarver]

I recommend Combat Taiji. (Although I am often doing it in the morning.)

That was my first choice but it's not offered in my town

I had a talk about that with MH some time ago. Perhaps it's time to resume that conversation?

Everyone is here but I think I heard millions suddenly cry out in the force.

I was almost going to mention that in my previous post, then I decided to leave it to you.

 

Although Lao Tzu doesn't talk of excessive planning here necessarily,  the recommendation does share the element of foresight and purposeful action with the latter.

 

 

Then again, wu wei is not so much no-action as action with the flow of things.

All of this rings of chess, alright.

Good to know. That explains at least partially why Quincy was able to wipe the floor with me when I (newbie) dared playing chess with him (master).

That's why I play Tetris, not so much tactics and 100% dynamic. No time to think about what to do or what you could have done. I'm telling this to a martial arts guy.

That took longer than it should have to click for me, I just got up from a nap I guess. Confucius would be so mad.

 

I want to hug that seal

I hope that this thread will lead to some insights regarding this.

Let's see, I got it from this website that is posted in the Yijing section of TDB: http://www.ichingonline.net/uses.php

It doesn't have a source.

 

 

Sun TzuThe great Chinese warrior, Sun Tzu was heavily influenced by the I Ching when he wrote his brilliant Art of War, 2500 years ago.

Yet he would not let his officers consult the oracle when mapping strategy.

Why?

Because his lieutenants had fallen into the same trap that threatens anyone who uses the I Ching -- they began to use it for fortune-telling.

They would look for omens.

They would cast the coins to ask what direction to march, and read only the symbolic direction.

They were not tapping their own deeper knowledge with the tool.

[woodcarver]

To everyone just joining us, we're still on chaper one. Powerful response from a powerful text, no?

 

 

I'm going to give it some more time in case less frequent posters want to join in.

[Marblehead]

I'm going to give it some more time in case less frequent posters want to join in.

Yes, please do.  We really haven't talked much about the chapter yet.

 

For example this:

 

 

18.  All warfare is based on deception.

 

[The truth of this pithy and profound saying will be admitted by every soldier.  Col.  Henderson tells us   that Wellington,  great in so many military qualities, was especially distinguished by "the extraordinary skill with which he concealed his movements and deceived both friend and foe."]

 

Quoted from:

SUN TZU ON THE ART OF WAR

THE OLDEST MILITARY TREATISE IN THE WORLD

by LIONEL GILES, M.A.

 

The Greeks used this to defeat the Persians.

 

Cause your enemy to devote resources where they are not really needed.

 

And this links with the concept of "divide and conquer".

[woodcarver]

Hello all.

 

Partially why I returned to TDB was because I knew something was going wrong with me along my path and I need some interaction with other cultivators.

 

That being said, I apologize to humanity and the Japanese people for my comments on Tokugawa. I’m new to Japanese history and thought I was in a situation similar to somebody studying Caesar or Napoleon. For my ignorance, I hand over the thread to anybody who wants to lead it (as entertaining that a scary spider like me running the AOW thread is). Any further contributions from my part, if any at all, will not be my words but quotes. I’m willing to type the Minford translation from now on.

 

I also noticed that there are multiple Minford translations for sale and I want to stress that I’m talking about the PENGUIN CLASSICS version that’s so awesome.

 

Thank you for your tolerance.

[Marblehead]

Hi Woodcarver,

 

I think you are doing a great job.  Please continue.  Please?

 

Reason:  We have tried a couple times to do a study of The Art Of War here at The Tao Bums but to this day we have been unsuccessful.  We manage a couple chapters and then stumble over our own feet.

 

Is it the fear of making an error?  I don't know.  I do know that we should rid our self of this fear.  After all, we do learn from both our successes and failures.

 

As was previously pointed out, The Art Of War is an important text within Taoist Philosophy.  This text should be discussed and there needs be someone to keep the discussion flowing.

 

Sure, Michael could do it.  I could do it.  It would be nice if you would continue to hold the position of guiding the flow.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Marblehead

[woodcarver]

Marblehead,

 

I’ll try but I will be very careful.

 

There’s some weird stuff going on over here and I guess I just went temporarily out of my mind in a dualistic mess. I was mixing religions and also meditating too hard I think. I’m also not in a stable place in my life. If my mind were stable, you would think my life would be as well right? I’ll do my best.