The Art of War

[Ell]

This is a legitimate taoist text included in the taoist canon.  Well worth studying.  For those who do not engage in any wars due to sheer luck of having been born in a peaceful setting (few people throughout history were this lucky -- or are), it is worth contemplating from the POV of how this particular approach "fa ziran," imitates nature.  A really fruitful way to look at nature for those who haven't tried to see it this way.  

 

Late to the party here but just wanted to add how the author simply dubbing war "the animating storm" once gave me much new insight into looking at "bad" situations. I agree with you; it's an interesting work even for the peaceful.

[Marblehead]

Yes, there's a saying that the first casualty of war is truth. But as to Japan's surrender, there is plenty of research showing that the Japanese were actively seeking surrender many months before the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in August 1945. For instance.... 

I can't, nor would I even want to, argue against what you have said. 

 

But in the US, once the decision was made to drop the bomb there was no turning back.  It wasn't time for talking.  And I do understand that the second bomb was totally unnecessary but apparently the US wanted to send a message to the world at Japan's expense.

 

The US was not going to discuss a truce.  It wanted total surrender.

[Marblehead]

Late to the party here but just wanted to add how the author simply dubbing war "the animating storm" once gave me much new insight into looking at "bad" situations. I agree with you; it's an interesting work even for the peaceful.

Yes, it is a book of strategy.  It can be used for peaceful purposes because it looks truthfully at the nature of man.

[Marblehead]

Okay.  Shall we discuss the chapter?

 

I will point first to Line 1.

 

It speaks to having the resources to accomplish the goal (mission).  If we do not have the proper materials, supplies, tools, knowledge, and abilities to build a good dog house we will never be able to build a good one.  This will likely result in overall failure.

 

This stands true for any goal we pursue in life.  Logistics is one of the most important consideration we must plan for.  Hitler found this out when he invaded Russia.

 

I find it out now and then when I start a project and have to stop three or four times in order to go to the store and buy more of whatever is needed to complete the project properly.

 

And we must plan for unforeseen encounters.  After all, who of us are capable of creating plans and never have to modify our plans along the way of construction?

[dust]

Okay.  Shall we discuss the chapter?

 

Weren't we..? 

 

 

 

And we must plan for unforeseen encounters.  After all, who of us are capable of creating plans and never have to modify our plans along the way of construction?

 

All true.

 

As this is all being discussed under the tentative aegis of Daoism... can we reconcile all this planning with the spontaneity we find in, for example, the Zhuangzi?

Edited August 10, 2015 by dustybeijing

[Michael Sternbach]

II. Waging War

 

Okay, now the heat is on. The general thrust of this chapter is: Engage the enemy economically. Meaning, with minimum expenditure for yourself, and maximum expenditure for them. Needless to say, this principle can be adapted to many kinds of conflict.

 

A related tenet comes to mind: Let the opponent make far detours, while you are only making small circles. (Aikido demonstrates this nicely.)

 

Some repetitions in this chapter. Therefore I will skip some paragraphs in the following.

2. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be damped. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength.

 

The same holds true for any ongoing "static warfare" situation in life.

4. Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor damped, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue.

 

Right, another reason to avoid strenuous delays: There can be opportunists just waiting to take advantage of your overexertion.

5. Thus, though we have heard of stupid haste in war, cleverness has never been seen associated with long delays.

It goes without saying that what is to be considered "extreme" depends on the circumstances.

6. There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.

 

Probably not a country. But there have always been individuals or industries profiting from it, as MH mentioned before. The true reason for many a war in the first place, one might assume.

7. It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on.

 

Profitable war... Here Sun Tzu starts reminding me of Machiavelli.

9. Bring war material with you from home, but forage on the enemy. Thus the army will have food enough for its needs.

 

More "Machiavellian" stuff.

15. Hence a wise general makes a point of foraging on the enemy. One cartload of the enemy's provisions is equivalent to twenty of one's own, and likewise a single picul of his provender is equivalent to twenty from one's own store.

 

Hoping that the enemy can provide you with your favourite nachos!

16. Now in order to kill the enemy, our men must be roused to anger; that there may be advantage from defeating the enemy, they must have their rewards.

17. Therefore in chariot fighting, when ten or more chariots have been taken, those should be rewarded who took the first. Our own flags should be substituted for those of the enemy, and the chariots mingled and used in conjunction with ours.

 

Address your people's lower instincts, in other words.

 

The captured soldiers should be kindly treated and kept.

 

A humane note; Sun Tzu seems to remember that many opponents in a war are not there of their own device. And/or that today's enemies can be tomorrow's friends.

18. This is called, using the conquered foe to augment one's own strength.

 

Oh. Rather the latter then.

19. In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns.

 

As a martial artist, I observe that the same holds true in self-defence. No room for competition style hopping and acrobatics there! Make every strike count. And as soon as you have the opportunity: Get out of there.

20. Thus it may be known that the leader of armies is the arbiter of the people's fate, the man on whom it depends whether the nation shall be in peace or in peril.

 

They should better remember that one well.

[Brian]

<snip>

As this is all being discussed under the tentative aegis of Daoism... can we reconcile all this planning with the spontaneity we find in, for example, the Zhuangzi?

Even "chop wood, carry water" implies and requires both planning and judgement.

[Marblehead]

 

As this is all being discussed under the tentative aegis of Daoism... can we reconcile all this planning with the spontaneity we find in, for example, the Zhuangzi?

Ah!  Therein lies the challenge.  I think there are times when we need hold to strict planning, ie, a matter of life and death, and other times when, free from external dangers, we live spontaneously.

 

In other words, there are time for work and when the work is done there will be time for play.

[Nungali]

Hi Michael,

Consider the "temple" the mind (brain).  In other words, the total plan is in the mind of the general only.  He shares only the information with his subordinates that they need to know in order to accomplish "their" mission.  (No WikiLeaks here.)

 

 

I agree with you that much, but not all, of "The Art of War" is rooted in Daoist concepts.

 

In Vietnam, the North Vietnamese  followed the guidance of "The Art of War" whereas my leaders did not.

 

"The Art of War" used to be a required reading at West Point.  Apparently most of the students slept through those classes.

 

It used to be a required reading for many business majors in college.

 

 

And just as with the TTC, many of the concepts in "The Art of War" can be applied at an individual level when dealing with others.

 

 

yep ... I used it to great advantage against the Crown prosecutor and Attorney general in my Supreme court case ( I won ) ... I could not believe they were not familiar with the tactics ... they seem dumfounded and totally out of their depth ... even our solicitor and attorneys kept asking me what was wrong with them ....  "They are acting like complete idiots"

 

Or I should say ; acting like those whose 'robes of office'  and 'badges of glory' were not actually earned at all ... just pinned on in some attempt at intimidation ?

[Michael Sternbach]

yep ... I used it to great advantage against the Crown prosecutor and Attorney general in my Supreme court case ( I won ) ... I could not believe they were not familiar with the tactics ... they seem dumfounded and totally out of their depth ... even our solicitor and attorneys kept asking me what was wrong with them .... "They are acting like complete idiots"

 

Or I should say ; acting like those whose 'robes of office' and 'badges of glory' were not actually earned at all ... just pinned on in some attempt at intimidation ?

Interesting.

 

I would like to see some elaborated examples for the application of AoW principles in real life on this thread. Could you give us some details?

Edited August 11, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Marblehead]

Right, another reason to avoid strenuous delays: There can be opportunists just waiting to take advantage of your overexertion.

This speaks to one of my favorite sayings:  Do what needs be done.  Or sometimes:  Just do it.

 

Delays almost always allow the problem to worsen.

[Michael Sternbach]

Ah!  Therein lies the challenge.  I think there are times when we need hold to strict planning, ie, a matter of life and death, and other times when, free from external dangers, we live spontaneously.

 

In other words, there are time for work and when the work is done there will be time for play.

 

So wu wei is only good for play times? Wouldn't we have to think of it as the most appropriate way of action under the most challenging circumstances? Isn't this what martial arts teach?

 

Telling from personal experience, I have been in some tricky situations unexpectedly before, and I kept my head while others lost theirs. So while they were behaving like hysterical chicken, the best course of action occurred to me spontaneously.

 

In Sun Tzu's recommendation of meticulous planning versus Chuang Tzu's spontaneity lies a dichotomy that is not easily resolved, again talking from my own life experience.

[Brian]

So wu wei is only good for play times? Wouldn't we have to think of it as the most appropriate way of action under the most challenging circumstances? Isn't this what martial arts teach?

 

Telling from personal experience, I have been in some tricky situations unexpectedly before, and I kept my head while others lost theirs. So while they were behaving like hysterical chicken, the best course of action occurred to me spontaneously.

 

In Sun Tzu's recommendation of meticulous planning versus Chuang Tzu's spontaneity lies a dichotomy that is not easily resolved, again talking from my own life experience.

Yes, reside in stillness except when motion is appropriate and then act decisively and with surety. Waffling is rarely advantageous but should not be confused with patience or observation.

[Marblehead]

So wu wei is only good for play times? Wouldn't we have to think of it as the most appropriate way of action under the most challenging circumstances? Isn't this what martial arts teach?

 

Telling from personal experience, I have been in some tricky situations unexpectedly before, and I kept my head while others lost theirs. So while they were behaving like hysterical chicken, the best course of action occurred to me spontaneously.

 

In Sun Tzu's recommendation of meticulous planning versus Chuang Tzu's spontaneity lies a dichotomy that is not easily resolved, again talking from my own life experience.

Yeah, I've had this discussion before.  I speak mostly from my own personal experiences and not from some text.

 

And to discuss your above post I must invoke wei wu wei.  Shall we say "action without alterior purpose"?  Action without action just doesn't get it for me.

 

Yes, wu wei is basically living spontaneously.  If we are in other people's world it might not be wise to live our spontaneity.  Better to act in accordance with their standards.  This requires planning.

 

So, in the end I still must say that there is a time for work and a time for play.  We should know when these times are.

[Michael Sternbach]

I like to think of plans as providing me with a certain direction to go and something to resort to in case no better option presents itself. However, planning ahead too meticulously leaves one vulnerable to unexpected moves by the opposition. The overly systematic fighter may not be able to cope when faced with a seemingly chaotic (non-linear) style of combat. Interestingly, Sun Tzu therefore recommends the latter in certain chapters as we shall see later.

[Marblehead]

Therein lies the importance I place on "Flexible".

[PLB]

What is efficient for the moment is drawn on some account from the future. Sherman's march was effiicient. All that foraging had a cost still being worked out.

Once you start really fighting, the event horizon expands beyond one's control.

[Taomeow]

Here's a Westerner well-versed in secret doctrines who understood the Art of War

 

 A Poison Tree

 

by William Blake

 

I was angry with my friend:
I told my wrath, my wrath did end.
I was angry with my foe:
I told it not, my wrath did grow.

And I watered it in fears,
Night and morning with my tears;
And I sunned it with smiles,
And with soft deceitful wiles.

And it grew both day and night,
Till it bore an apple bright.
And my foe beheld it shine.
And he knew that it was mine,

And into my garden stole
When the night had veiled the pole;
In the morning glad I see
My foe outstretched beneath the tree.

[Marblehead]

Yes, I have lived that Taomeow.

[Taomeow]

I'd like to hear the story, Marble, if you care to share.

[Marblehead]

I'd like to hear the story, Marble, if you care to share.

You want my life story?  Hehehe.  I already post too much.

 

However, I will speak to the first stanza and see what happens.

 

I was angry with my friend:

I told my wrath, my wrath did end.

I was angry with my foe:

I told it not, my wrath did grow.

 

Believe it or not I am, by nature, an introvert.  I used to keep all my feelings to myself.  When I became angry with someone I would just hold the anger inside.

 

Oh!, what a mistake that is.  Anger feeds on itself.  It grows and festers and never allows you any inner peace.

 

A true friend is one we can tell our inner-most feelings to and know that, although we might not get agreement we will get understanding.  So, when we are angered we can speak about it with our friend and in doing so we have released the anger to go upon its merry way.

 

It is more difficult to speak our anger to one we barely know.  Even someone we consider our foe.  So we hold our anger inside and, sure enough, that anger grows and oftentimes gives birth to the desire for revenge.  And sadly, now someone we barely know has become our foe.

 

I have spoken before of releasing our emotions as soon as possible, especially those of anger and joy.  We should let others know how they are effecting us regarding how they are  interacting with us.  And always with only the truth.  And it should never be through the ego but with honest truth.

 

I have had numerous relationship gone bad because I held inside things that I should have openly and honestly expressed.  As long as we can talk there is the possibility for understanding.  Without honesty things can rarely improve.  It is now that we need the guidance of "The Art of War".

[Taomeow]

Thank you for elaborating.

 

So, stage one, which does not lead to war, is to openly express grievances instead of repressing them and pretending nothing is wrong.  This, alas, is not always possible, and also often not practiced even when possible.  People live in fear of the truth, of self-expression, of -- especially -- expressing a feeling as bound and straightjacketed by multiple superimposed taboos as anger, from crib to grave. 

 

Which is why it grows, and once it does get expressed on occasion, almost invariably misses its original target and its justified proportions, and is dumped onto the nearest receptacle like a bucket of random BS accumulated inside over the years.      

 

And this is how one will lose the war come stage two. 

 

The "apple bright" is what Sun Tzu shows how to grow toward stage two instead, once the chance for preventing war has been missed due to the failure of open and timely expression of grievances.  Peace is bound to be broken because being denied expression does not make these grievances go away, it only makes them go underground and start growing.  From this hidden base they feed the tree of life till a poisonous apple of war grows on its branches.  To cajole the foe to fight for this enticing shiny fruit, an easy victory, grab at it and eat it and die as a result, is "to win the war before it starts." 

[Michael Sternbach]

Next, Sun Tzu shows that he also understands the "yin side" of warfare (as does every experienced spouse or parent - LOL): The sneaky art of using stratagems.

 

III. Attack by Stratagem

 

1. Sun Tzu said: In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them.

 

2. Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy'sresistance without fighting.

 

3. Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field; and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities.

 

4. The rule is, not to besiege walled cities if it can possibly be avoided. The preparation of mantlets, movable shelters, and variousimplements of war, will take up three whole months; and the piling up of mounds over against the walls will take three months more.

 

5. The general, unable to control his irritation, will launch his men to the assault like swarming ants, with the result that one-third of his men are slain, while the town still remains untaken. Such are the disastrous effects of a siege.

 

6. Therefore the skillful leader subdues the enemy's troops without any fighting; he captures their cities without laying siege tothem; he overthrows their kingdom without lengthy operations in the field.

 

7. With his forces intact he will dispute the mastery of the Empire, and thus, without losing a man, his triumph will be complete. This is the method of attacking by stratagem.

 

8. It is the rule in war, if our forces are ten to the enemy's one, to surround him; if five to one, to attack him; if twice as numerous, to divide our army into two.

 

9. If equally matched, we can offer battle; if slightly inferior in numbers, we can avoid the enemy; if quite unequal in every way, we can flee from him.

 

10. Hence, though an obstinate fight may be made by a small force, in the end it must be captured by the larger force.

 

11. Now the general is the bulwark of the State; if the bulwark is complete at all points; the State will be strong; if the bulwark is defective, the State will be weak.

 

12. There are three ways in which a ruler can bring misfortune upon his army:--

 

13. (1) By commanding the army to advance or to retreat, being ignorant of the fact that it cannot obey. This is called hobbling the army.

 

14. (2) By attempting to govern an army in the same way as he administers a kingdom, being ignorant of the conditions which obtain in an army. This causes restlessness in the soldier'sminds.

 

15. (3) By employing the officers of his army without discrimination, through ignorance of the military principle of adaptation to circumstances. This shakes the confidence of the soldiers.

 

16. But when the army is restless and distrustful, trouble is sure to come from the other feudal princes. This is simply bringinganarchy into the army, and flinging victory away.

 

17. Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory: (1) He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight. (2) He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces. (3) He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks. (4) He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemyunprepared. (5) He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign.

 

18. Hence the saying: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Marblehead]

This slapped me right in the face:

 

1. Sun Tzu said: In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them.

 

How very different the USA has been conducting itself in the Middle East!  Rather than trying to conserve the USA has been hell-bent to destroy.

 

 

Okay.  Sorry.  I just had to mention that.  Back to read Line 2 now.

[Marblehead]

Yes, the rest is all about strategy.  Know yourself and know your enemy.  Not much different in our every-day life.  Know yourself and know what you are getting yourself into.