The Art of War

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Michael Sternbach]

Im not challenging that , but I do find it hard to define yin and yang in terms of offense and defense , because , as you pointed out, defense may be used as a tool to further ones goals too. 

 

Transcend zebra thinking. Bear in mind that there is a white yang "fish eye" in the black yin "fish".

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

It helps to be on islands too. I see several island nations that have no active military. It strikes me as both odd and appropriate. 

But If what you're getting at is the larger issue that one always requires some defense generally speaking , and so feel that to this extent a write-off is appropriate , sure OK ,and anything done dual purpose , would fit the bill as well , I figure. That leaves the question of whether Sun was of like mind,, 

Yeah.  I try to equate Taoism to my every day life.  The Art of War therefore applies to how I defend myself and those others and things I care about.  I have no need for the offensive aspects but then it is good to know what others might be capable of.  Knowing this allows me to better prepare my defenses.

[Michael Sternbach]

I like the terms but have no idea what that means. To me , if I use assertive force that's yang, the branch bends or breaks, that's yin , If the branch resists and doesn't break , then its asserting equal force back ,and is still yang force. The yin is to yield , not to defend successfully by exertion of equal force.  SO I don't think I'm thinking like a zebra. 

 

Alright, let me try again.

 

Im not challenging that , but I do find it hard to define yin and yang in terms of offense and defense , because , as you pointed out, defense may be used as a tool to further ones goals too. 

 

Okay, Chewbacca. Let's use an example from Aikido. Opponent rushes at me. I avoid him by a circular step out of his way and use the energy generated by my evasive action plus his attack to gently redirect him, so he goes crashing right into that wall. Aren't yin and yang really close to each other here?

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Are you saying the Art of war , is Taoist? 

I think it is, yes.  However, I would have a pretty good challenge if I tried to support what I think.

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Michael Sternbach]

Yes they are Han Solo , I agree entirely, we're really talking 'direct and indirect' are we not?  

My turn,,, fair? Stretch a regular rubber band fairly tight , is it yielding , or is it pulling?  

 

Good one. I would say it's yielding (although with resistance) while building up potential energy for pulling.

[Marblehead]

I have been building up a lot of potential energy lately.

[Bud Jetsun]

 The Art of War therefore applies to how I defend myself and those others and things I care about.  I have no need for the offensive aspects but then it is good to know what others might be capable of.  Knowing this allows me to better prepare my defenses.

 

 

Lay down your burden of the illusion of a need to defend.   Realize the illusion of a need to defend is only a manifestation of personal fears. 

 

Use the energy previously spent in the delusion of defense towards compassion for all beings in all states of awareness (both hostile and peaceful alike). 

 

If choosing to fight, the outcome isn't important, all that mattered was already lost and if you 'win the fight' you lose far more. 

 

Greet other beings and sensations with unconditional Love and acceptance.  Any alternative is just a demonstration you are no better. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[thelerner]

in the same vein, Mystic and founder of Aikido Morihei Ueshiba was asked by a Western Student what the relationship should be between an Aikidoist and there attacker.   He said it should be as Parent to child.  Interesting, easier done if you're a master. 

 

Glenn Morris taught this attitude/saying to his students when about to fight: Let the Universe Decide.

[Michael Sternbach]

V. Energy

1. Sun Tzu said: The control of a large force is the same principle as the control of a few men: it is merely a question of dividing up their numbers.

 

How would you coordinate large numbers of people (or, by analogy, large sets of informations etc)? There would be the risk to see the trees for the forest. So you would want to organize the whole according to some simple structure that enables you to keep the grand scheme in view. Further, you would apply that pattern also to its parts, for the same structures and principles are applicable to every level of a whole, as was understood long before modern Chaos Theory. The trick is being able to switch between the overview of an eagle and the close-up perspective of a mouse at will.

2. Fighting with a large army under your command is nowise different from fighting with a small one: it is merely a question of instituting signs and signals.

 

There must be a common terminology understood by all the parts. Smooth communication is of great importance.

3. To ensure that your whole host may withstand the brunt of the enemy's attack and remain unshaken-- this is effected by maneuvers direct and indirect.

 

Direct maneuvres are the ones that are out in the open, plain for all to see. Indirect maneuvres are not as obvious. They include deception, espionage, secret operations that strike the opponent out of the blue, sometimes even the use of psychic/magical forces (sorry MH, I had to say this).

4. That the impact of your army may be like a grindstone dashed against an egg--this is effected by the science of weak points and strong.

 

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Using your own strengths against your opponent's weaknesses is a key to victory. That's why it's so important to know both yourself and your opponent.

5. In all fighting, the direct method may be used for joining battle, but indirect methods will be needed in order to secure victory.

6. Indirect tactics, efficiently applied, are inexhaustible as Heaven and Earth, unending as the flow of rivers and streams; like the sun and moon, they end but to begin anew; like the four seasons, they pass away to return once more.

 

The general who doesn't know the "night side" of warfare lacks finesse and is limited to crude and predictable tactics.

7. There are not more than five musical notes, yet the combinations of these five give rise to more melodies than can ever be heard.

8. There are not more than five primary colors (blue, yellow, red, white, and black), yet in combination they produce more hues than can ever been seen.

9. There are not more than five cardinal tastes (sour, acrid, salt, sweet, bitter), yet combinations of them yield more flavors than can ever be tasted.

 

Again, we are talking about breaking things down to their simplest constituents. Some of the most effective martial arts are based on a fairly limited number of basic moves, although their applications, combinations and permutations are innumerable.

10. In battle, there are not more than two methods of attack--the direct and the indirect; yet these two in combination give rise to an endless series of maneuvers.

11. The direct and the indirect lead on to each other in turn. It is like moving in a circle--you never come to an end. Who can exhaust the possibilities of their combination?

 

Here, Sun Tzu summarizes the methods of war into the two most basic categories of Daoist philosophy, yin and yang. They keep moving in a circle, and from their combinations, the ten-thousand things arise.

12. The onset of troops is like the rush of a torrent which will even roll stones along in its course.

 

Provided that a suitable gradient has been established, especially by strengthening one's own position (as we saw in the previous chapter).

13. The quality of decision is like the well-timed swoop of a falcon which enables it to strike and destroy its victim.

 

A metaphor for action from a superior position with good timing.

14. Therefore the good fighter will be terrible in his onset, and prompt in his decision.

15. Energy may be likened to the bending of a crossbow; decision, to the releasing of a trigger.

 

The bending of a cross bow is synonymous with the build-up of potential energy. Bear in mind that potential energy is in a state of containment and order, just like Sun Tzu's army. However, its release is likened to an explosion.

16. Amid the turmoil and tumult of battle, there may be seeming disorder and yet no real disorder at all; amid confusion and chaos, your array may be without head or tail, yet it will be proof against defeat.

 

Being able to discern hidden order will definitely give you the edge in any kind of chaotic situation.

17. Simulated disorder postulates perfect discipline, simulated fear postulates courage; simulated weakness postulates strength.

18. Hiding order beneath the cloak of disorder is simply a question of subdivision; concealing courage under a show of timidity presupposes a fund of latent energy; masking strength with weakness is to be effected by tactical dispositions.

 

Sometimes it's best to intimidate the opponent by a show of strength. At other times, it's preferable to simulate weakness as to make the opposition careless - then take them by surprise.

 

For an example, watch this video especially from 2:30 onward:

 

19. Thus one who is skillful at keeping the enemy on the move maintains deceitful appearances, according to which the enemy will act. He sacrifices something, that the enemy may snatch at it.

20. By holding out baits, he keeps him on the march; then with a body of picked men he lies in wait for him.

 

Keeping them running around in circles will make them dissipate their energy and resources.

21. The clever combatant looks to the effect of combined energy, and does not require too much from individuals. Hence his ability to pick out the right men and utilize combined energy.

 

To use minimum effort for maximum results is another important principle both in fighting and in Daoism.

22. When he utilizes combined energy, his fighting men become as it were like unto rolling logs or stones. For it is the nature of a log or stone to remain motionless on level ground, and to move when on a slope; if four-cornered, to come to a standstill, but if round-shaped, to go rolling down.

 

Energies properly combined will resonate with and amplify each other. An example (which Sun Tzu wouldn't have been familiar with) is laser light. Or soldiers marching lock-step making a bridge collapse...

23. Thus the energy developed by good fighting men is as the momentum of a round stone rolled down a mountain thousands of feet in height. So much on the subject of energy.

 

Fighting from an elevated position (the so called high ground), both literally and metaphorically, is generally of great advantage.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Marblehead]

Lay down your burden of the illusion of a need to defend.   Realize the illusion of a need to defend is only a manifestation of personal fears. 

 

Use the energy previously spent in the delusion of defense towards compassion for all beings in all states of awareness (both hostile and peaceful alike). 

 

If choosing to fight, the outcome isn't important, all that mattered was already lost and if you 'win the fight' you lose far more. 

 

Greet other beings and sensations with unconditional Love and acceptance.  Any alternative is just a demonstration you are no better. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

You sure dream some beautiful dreams at times.  You must live on a different planet than I do.  There is crime on my planet.  And no, it is not because of fear that I defend what is mine.  It is simply because it is mine.  You nor any one else can have it unless I give it willingly.

 

But you go ahead with your unlimited love.  I will stick with being cautious.

[Marblehead]

 Let the Universe Decide.

And the universe will kick your ass every time.

[Marblehead]

... sometimes even the use of psychic/magical forces (sorry MH, I had to say this).

Hehehe.  That's okay.  Back in my younger days some women thought I used magic.

[Michael Sternbach]

Hehehe.  That's okay.  Back in my younger days some women thought I used magic.

 

Quite possibly, you unwittingly did.

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Michael Sternbach]

Time to tackle another chapter.

 

VI. Weak Points and Strong

1. Sun Tzu said: Whoever is first in the field and awaits the coming of the enemy, will be fresh for the fight; whoever is second in the field and has to hasten to battle will arrive exhausted.

2. Therefore the clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy's will to be imposed on him.

3. By holding out advantages to him, he can cause the enemy to approach of his own accord; or, by inflicting damage, he can make it impossible for the enemy to draw near.

4. If the enemy is taking his ease, he can harass him; if well supplied with food, he can starve him out; if quietly encamped, he can force him to move.

5. Appear at points which the enemy must hasten to defend; march swiftly to places where you are not expected.

6. An army may march great distances without distress, if it marches through country where the enemy is not.

7. You can be sure of succeeding in your attacks if you only attack places which are undefended.You can ensure the safety of your defense if you only hold positions that cannot be attacked.

8. Hence that general is skillful in attack whose opponent does not know what to defend; and he is skillful in defense whose opponent does not know what to attack.

9. O divine art of subtlety and secrecy! Through you we learn to be invisible, through you inaudible; and hence we can hold the enemy's fate in our hands.

10. You may advance and be absolutely irresistible, if you make for the enemy's weak points; you may retire and be safe from pursuit if your movements are more rapid than those of the enemy.

11. If we wish to fight, the enemy can be forced to an engagement even though he be sheltered behind a high rampart and a deep ditch. All we need do is attack some other place that he will be obliged to relieve.

12. If we do not wish to fight, we can prevent the enemy from engaging us even though the lines of our encampment be merely traced out on the ground. All we need do is to throw something odd and unaccountable in his way.

13. By discovering the enemy's dispositions and remaining invisible ourselves, we can keep our forces concentrated, while the enemy's must be divided.

14. We can form a single united body, while the enemy must split up into fractions. Hence there will be a whole pitted against separate parts of a whole, which means that we shall be many to the enemy's few.

15. And if we are able thus to attack an inferior force with a superior one, our opponents will be in dire straits.

16. The spot where we intend to fight must not be made known; for then the enemy will have to prepare against a possible attack at several different points; and his forces being thus distributed in many directions, the numbers we shall have to face at any given point will be proportionately few.

17. For should the enemy strengthen his van, he will weaken his rear; should he strengthen his rear, he will weaken his van; should he strengthen his left, he will weaken his right; should he strengthen his right, he will weaken his left. If he sends reinforcements everywhere, he will everywhere be weak.

18. Numerical weakness comes from having to prepare against possible attacks; numerical strength, from compelling our adversary to make these preparations against us.

19. Knowing the place and the time of the coming battle, we may concentrate from the greatest distances in order to fight.

20. But if neither time nor place be known, then the left wing will be impotent to succor the right, the right equally impotent to succor the left, the van unable to relieve the rear, or the rear to support the van. How much more so if the furthest portions of the army are anything under a hundred LI apart, and even the nearest are separated by several LI!

21. Though according to my estimate the soldiers of Yueh exceed our own in number, that shall advantage them nothing in the matter of victory. I say then that victory can be achieved.

22. Though the enemy be stronger in numbers, we may prevent him from fighting. Scheme so as to discover his plans and the likelihood of their success.

23. Rouse him, and learn the principle of his activity or inactivity. Force him to reveal himself, so as to find out his vulnerable spots.

24. Carefully compare the opposing army with your own, so that you may know where strength is superabundant and where it is deficient.

25. In making tactical dispositions, the highest pitch you can attain is to conceal them; conceal your dispositions, and you will be safe from the prying of the subtlest spies, from the machinations of the wisest brains.

26. How victory may be produced for them out of the enemy's own tactics--that is what the multitude cannot comprehend.

27. All men can see the tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved.

28. Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances.

29. Military tactics are like unto water; for water in its natural course runs away from high places and hastens downwards.

30. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.

31. Water shapes its course according to the nature of the ground over which it flows; the soldier works out his victory in relation to the foe whom he is facing.

32. Therefore, just as water retains no constant shape, so in warfare there are no constant conditions.

33. He who can modify his tactics in relation to his opponent and thereby succeed in winning, may be called a heaven-born captain.

34. The five elements (water, fire, wood, metal, earth) are not always equally predominant; the four seasons make way for each other in turn. There are short days and long; the moon has its periods of waning and waxing.

[Marblehead]

Within those lines lie the reason Washington was victorious against the British and why Hannibal failed against Rome.

 

It has been, for a very long time, to never let anyone know the full extent of my capabilities and capacities.   And walking without leaving any footprints helps too.

[Jadespear]

The art of war today is of a new pattern in warfare, due to technology.  We can now annihilate anyone from a helicopter, bomb an entire nation, and genetically engineer the ills of an entire culture with an engineered virus.  The sayings from the art of war are applicable to the time in which they were written, they are no longer apt to be applied as such.  So is the way of many ancient texts etc. etc. etc.

[Marblehead]

The art of war today is of a new pattern in warfare, due to technology.  We can now annihilate anyone from a helicopter, bomb an entire nation, and genetically engineer the ills of an entire culture with an engineered virus.  The sayings from the art of war are applicable to the time in which they were written, they are no longer apt to be applied as such.  So is the way of many ancient texts etc. etc. etc.

Hehehe.  Good try.  The US tried that great technology stuff in Iraq and lost the war.  Can you explain that?

 

Feet on the ground, going from house to house is the only way to ensure a win.  To do it successfully you need to understand what is written in The Art of War.

[Michael Sternbach]

The art of war today is of a new pattern in warfare, due to technology.  We can now annihilate anyone from a helicopter, bomb an entire nation, and genetically engineer the ills of an entire culture with an engineered virus.  The sayings from the art of war are applicable to the time in which they were written, they are no longer apt to be applied as such.  So is the way of many ancient texts etc. etc. etc.

 

I beg to differ. The ancient texts talk of superordinate principles that are timeless. Although their concrete manifestations may change over time.

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh