The Art of War

[Michael Sternbach]

Really now? So if the thing says to be like uncarved wood,, the traditional daoist thinks this means,,to act according to his nature AND act unnatural sometimes, or never be entirely genuine.

No. It means to understand that we can't help acting unnatural sometimes. But then, it's in our nature to act unnatural! Paradoxically, it is this very acceptance that is the key to freeing our true nature. Or do you think you can force yourself to be natural, relaxed and spontaneous?! In that case, you are trying to push a door open that opens to the inside.

 

Well this goes way back to my assertion that it is you the reader inserting an unstated rationale into the provided quote. Im not saying the rationale you might be arriving at is wrong, I am saying you are reading into the text stuff the text doesnt expressly say.

Whatever we read or hear, we always interpret it through our own filters. We do that by relating the new information to information that we have acquired previously. Thus we form personal associations. It is when we lack such internal references that we can't make sense of new information we are given.

 

It is not always possible or crucial to ascertain what an author really had in mind anyway. It's often more important what a certain idea means for you.

 

If the text says the sage treats all men as straw dogs, you read it to mean ,that the sage doesnt treat all men as straw dogs, just some of them, right ?

Wrong. I don't take texts like that to be talking lukewarm half-truths. But it is a difficult example you have chosen. My best attempt is to read it to mean that the sage is able to act like that when he finds it the most appropriate thing to do so.

 

And even more than just speaking for yourself , you said that that this is the Normal daoist attitude towards the text!

I simply think that this kind of dialectics is a typical Daoist attitude towards all kinds of ideas.

 

But I readily admit that my understanding of Daoism will necessarily differ from anybody else's understanding.

 

Well that does explain a lot.

Really?

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Michael Sternbach]

I think we are reaching another semantic tipping point. It's your turn to carry on this time. (The monkey wrenches sorta bug me.)

[Marblehead]

I like monkey wrenches but I normally call them adjustable wrenches.

[Michael Sternbach]

I like monkey wrenches but I normally call them adjustable wrenches.

Well, not that I would mind monkey wrenches per say. Actually, I practice them, as the power of Taiji is based on them.

 

But I must admit that I am not completely sure what Stosh is getting at. Occasionally, he is as cryptic as the ancient Daoist philosophers. LOL

Edited October 11, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Michael Sternbach]

So what folks do is slap one face on god for another, promote one food over the another, label vice and virtue. SO, What happens to that system when being useless is not more or less virtuous than being useful? I think it makes a hash out of traditional understandings on Virtue. Every interp people have been making is thrown a whammie.

The virtue of the Sages is Not the virtue of normal folks, and its not just a swapping of labels. You may consider it a middle way, or otherwise.

 

Gotcha. Right. Daoist virtue is nothing like conventional virtue. It leaves common views of good and bad behind, just as the Dao does.

[Stosh]

 

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

The Te of Tao is not mysterious.  It is right there in plain view.  We humans have grossly modified the virtue of man to fit our own needs and desires.  But the Te of Tao still rules, regardless of how hard we try to change the universe.

[Michael Sternbach]

Yessir I agree with that .And raise the bet, Since dao isnt good bad virtue, that kind of valuation is at the level of the individual and also done collectively by society. Which simply means right and wrong may be judged, does exist, ..its just arbitrary when examined from the broader perspective of tao, other cultures, and sometimes even from the view of other individuals. .... I villify rev Jim Jones, You may not. But he is not beyond my judgement , nor am I provably incorrect.

I feel that now we are getting somewhere.

 

Yes, right and wrong are relative. To the Daoist, something that is "right" in one situation can be "wrong" in another - although, superficially, both situations look quite the same! It is not something that can be decided according to a rigid set of rules, but only holistically and intuitively. (This extends to Sun Tzu's caution not to repeat a strategy just because it once proved useful.)

 

So it's not that there is no right and wrong whatsoever for the Daoist sage. One might say, what brings them closer to (their) Dao, they will see as "right", what moves them away from it as "wrong" - for themselves! This, of course, is a far cry from the moralist setting standards valid for everybody, at all times and under any circumstances.

 

The Daoist is indifferent to socio-cultural and legal demands, although they might respect them insofar that keeps them out of trouble. The Daoist is an anarchist, in essence. However, their actions are constructive insofar they are indeed acting on behalf of Dao. Ideally speaking, a society of mature Daoists would have no need for laws and regulations. That's in fact what Lao Tzu was getting at.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Marblehead]

They are anarchists, in essence.

I just felt like repeating this.

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

whats an example of te of tao ruling over human virtue. ? I dont know what that post means

One example.  We are all born in sin.  How insane is that?  Birth is natural and the Way of Tao.  Having sex is natural too, BTW.  And no, Tao does not say you have to be maried with a person before you have sex with them.

 

The post means that we have altered our natural way in favor of some spaced-out dude who told people that he was a direct link between men and god.  And the people believed him.

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

 So I just dont know what the te of the tao of human behavior looks like. Monkey-boy of the mountains raised by lemurs? or just like anyone else on the bus.

Now this is the real question, isn't it?  I recall a good discussion a few years ago where we tried to establish an answer for the question.  The discussion just faded into the sunset.

 

We talk about the sages through history around the world but these folks are a rare exception.  Most of us have to work to earn a living.

 

I think that were we to go to a place and found it to be like Lao Tzu describes in Chapter 80 we would see what the te of man should be like including the people individually.

 

And I hold that there really are some places like that.  We call them uncivilized people.

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Michael Sternbach]

 

VIII. Variation in Tactics

 

1.

Sun Tzu said: In war, the general receives his commands from the sovereign, collects his army and concentrates his forces

 

Likewise, when faced with a challenging situation, we should not panic and act headlessly, but summon our internal forces: Our cognitive powers, imagination, knowledge, calmness, strength etc.

 

 

2.

When in difficult country, do not encamp. In country where high roads intersect, join hands with your allies. Do not linger in dangerously isolated positions. In hemmed-in situations, you must resort to stratagem. In desperate position, you must fight.

 

Do not take unnecessary chances. Optimize your position when you have the opportunity. But when in a difficult position nonetheless, never give up - fight your way out of it!

 

And always remember that using stratagams can give you the edge.

 

 

3.

There are roads which must not be followed, armies which must be not attacked, towns which must not be besieged, positions which must not be contested, commands of the sovereign which must not be obeyed.

 

An appeal to conduct warfare wisely. There can be any number of reasons why the actions  mentioned need to be avoided under certain circumstances. For example, it will do you no good to either overestimate yourself or underestimate the opposition in a conflict. Also, Sun Tzu, the master of baiting, knew that one must be careful not to be lured into something. Or give one's intentions away prematurely. And so forth.

 

Somewhat surprisingly, Sun Tzu even concedes disobeying a command from a superior, if it seems stupid. However, rumour has it that Sun Tzu himself was not always too understanding of folks who heeded this advice.

 

 

 

 

4.

The general who thoroughly understands the advantages that accompany variation of tactics knows how to handle his troops.

 

5.

The general who does not understand these, may be well acquainted with the configuration of the country, yet he will not be able to turn his knowledge to practical account.

 

6.

So, the student of war who is unversed in the art of war of varying his plans, even though he be acquainted with the Five Advantages, will fail to make the best use of his men.

 

Once again, Sun Tzu emphasizes variability and flexibility. Something not typical of average military men - but of Daoists.

 

 

7.

Hence in the wise leader's plans, considerations of advantage and of disadvantage will be blended together.

 

Thus, the wise leader considers a situation holistically. Before making a decision, they carefully weigh the pros and cons.

 

 

8.

If our expectation of advantage be tempered in this way, we may succeed in accomplishing the essential part of our schemes.

 

Another very Daoist advice: Don't be overly perfectionist, satisfy yourself with achieving what really matters.

 

 

9.

If, on the other hand, in the midst of difficulties we are always ready to seize an advantage, we may extricate ourselves from misfortune.

 

While being ever ready to seize an opportunity as it presents itself, of course!

 

 

10.

Reduce the hostile chiefs by inflicting damage on them; and make trouble for them, and keep them constantly engaged; hold out specious allurements, and make them rush to any given point.

 

And if no opportunity shows up... Use your ingeniousness and create one!

 

 

11.

The art of war teaches us to rely not on the likelihood of the enemy's not coming, but on our own readiness to receive him; not on the chance of his not attacking, but rather on the fact that we have made our position unassailable.

 

Just hoping for the best is not good enough.

 

 

12.

There are five dangerous faults which may affect a general: (1) Recklessness, which leads to destruction; (2) cowardice, which leads to capture; (3) a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults; (4) a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame; (5) over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble.

 

13.

These are the five besetting sins of a general, ruinous to the conduct of war.

 

14.

When an army is overthrown and its leader slain, the cause will surely be found among these five dangerous faults. Let them be a subject of meditation.

 

It's always the ramifications of one's ego that make one a loser. The one who fights without haste, fear, anger and pride is quite invincible. Sun Tzu really knew his Daoist sages.

[Marblehead]

Well, you did very well with that and have left me with nothing to say or add.  Well, except to say that it is good to see "flexibility" in there again.

[Michael Sternbach]

Well, you did very well with that and have left me with nothing to say or add.  Well, except to say that it is good to see "flexibility" in there again.

 

Thanks. I was indeed thinking of you when I wrote the part about flexibility, because I know how much you endorse this concept, even though your user name doesn't suggest it (the way, let's say, "Spongebob" would).

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Michael Sternbach]

Are you warriors all still around? I hope so, for we continue our exploration of master Sun Tzu's neat manual.

 

Ch. IX covers two main themes:

 

1. Different kinds of territory we and the opponent are faced with.
2. How to read the opponent's behaviour.

 

 

IX. The Army on the March

1. Sun Tzu said: We come now to the question of encamping the army, and observing signs of the enemy. Pass quickly over mountains, and keep in the neighborhood of valleys.

2. Camp in high places, facing the sun. Do not climb heights in order to fight. So much for mountain warfare.

3. After crossing a river, you should get far away from it.

4. When an invading force crosses a river in its onward march, do not advance to meet it in mid-stream. It will be best to let half the army get across, and then deliver your attack.

5. If you are anxious to fight, you should not go to meet the invader near a river which he has to cross.

6. Moor your craft higher up than the enemy, and facing the sun. Do not move up-stream to meet the enemy. So much for river warfare.

7. In crossing salt-marshes, your sole concern should be to get over them quickly, without any delay.

8. If forced to fight in a salt-marsh, you should have water and grass near you, and get your back to a clump of trees. So much for operations in salt-marches.

9. In dry, level country, take up an easily accessible position with rising ground to your right and on your rear, so that the danger may be in front, and safety lie behind. So much for campaigning in flat country.

10. These are the four useful branches of military knowledge which enabled the Yellow Emperor to vanquish four several sovereigns.

11. All armies prefer high ground to low and sunny places to dark.

12. If you are careful of your men, and camp on hard ground, the army will be free from disease of every kind, and this will spell victory.

13. When you come to a hill or a bank, occupy the sunny side, with the slope on your right rear. Thus you will at once act for the benefit of your soldiers and utilize the natural advantages of the ground.

14. When, in consequence of heavy rains up-country, a river which you wish to ford is swollen and flecked with foam, you must wait until it subsides.

15. Country in which there are precipitous cliffs with torrents running between, deep natural hollows, confined places, tangled thickets, quagmires and crevasses, should be left with all possible speed and not approached.

16. While we keep away from such places, we should get the enemy to approach them; while we face them, we should let the enemy have them on his rear.

17. If in the neighborhood of your camp there should be any hilly country, ponds surrounded by aquatic grass, hollow basins filled with reeds, or woods with thick undergrowth, they must be carefully routed out and searched; for these are places where men in ambush or insidious spies are likely to be lurking.

18. When the enemy is close at hand and remains quiet, he is relying on the natural strength of his position.

19. When he keeps aloof and tries to provoke a battle, he is anxious for the other side to advance.

20. If his place of encampment is easy of access, he is tendering a bait.

21. Movement amongst the trees of a forest shows that the enemy is advancing. The appearance of a number of screens in the midst of thick grass means that the enemy wants to make us suspicious.

22. The rising of birds in their flight is the sign of an ambuscade. Startled beasts indicate that a sudden attack is coming.

23. When there is dust rising in a high column, it is the sign of chariots advancing; when the dust is low, but spread over a wide area, it betokens the approach of infantry. When it branches out in different directions, it shows that parties have been sent to collect firewood. A few clouds of dust moving to and fro signify that the army is encamping.

24. Humble words and increased preparations are signs that the enemy is about to advance. Violent language and driving forward as if to the attack are signs that he will retreat.

25. When the light chariots come out first and take up a position on the wings, it is a sign that the enemy is forming for battle.

26. Peace proposals unaccompanied by a sworn covenant indicate a plot.

27. When there is much running about and the soldiers fall into rank, it means that the critical moment has come.

28. When some are seen advancing and some retreating, it is a lure.

29. When the soldiers stand leaning on their spears, they are faint from want of food.

30. If those who are sent to draw water begin by drinking themselves, the army is suffering from thirst.

31. If the enemy sees an advantage to be gained and makes no effort to secure it, the soldiers are exhausted.

32. If birds gather on any spot, it is unoccupied. Clamor by night betokens nervousness.

33. If there is disturbance in the camp, the general's authority is weak. If the banners and flags are shifted about, sedition is afoot. If the officers are angry, it means that the men are weary.

34. When an army feeds its horses with grain and kills its cattle for food, and when the men do not hang their cooking-pots over the camp-fires, showing that they will not return to their tents, you may know that they are determined to fight to the death.

35. The sight of men whispering together in small knots or speaking in subdued tones points to disaffection amongst the rank and file.

36. Too frequent rewards signify that the enemy is at the end of his resources; too many punishments betray a condition of dire distress.

37. To begin by bluster, but afterwards to take fright at the enemy's numbers, shows a supreme lack of intelligence.

38. When envoys are sent with compliments in their mouths, it is a sign that the enemy wishes for a truce.

39. If the enemy's troops march up angrily and remain facing ours for a long time without either joining battle or taking themselves off again, the situation is one that demands great vigilance and circumspection.

40. If our troops are no more in number than the enemy, that is amply sufficient; it only means that no direct attack can be made. What we can do is simply to concentrate all our available strength, keep a close watch on the enemy, and obtain reinforcements.

41. He who exercises no forethought but makes light of his opponents is sure to be captured by them.

42. If soldiers are punished before they have grown attached to you, they will not prove submissive; and, unless submissive, then will be practically useless. If, when the soldiers have become attached to you, punishments are not enforced, they will still be useless.

43. Therefore soldiers must be treated in the first instance with humanity, but kept under control by means of iron discipline. This is a certain road to victory.

44. If in training soldiers commands are habitually enforced, the army will be well-disciplined; if not, its discipline will be bad.

45. If a general shows confidence in his men but always insists on his orders being obeyed, the gain will be mutual.

 

[Marblehead]

Most of that stuff would be found in my army's Field Manuals.