The Art of War

[Michael Sternbach]

Most of that stuff would be found in my army's Field Manuals.

 

Great, so you are the ideal person to comment on it!

 

Some of the paragraphs made me wonder.

[Marblehead]

Great, so you are the ideal person to comment on it!

 

Some of the paragraphs made me wonder.

I'll get back to this tomorrow.  My brain's not so good this time of the evening.

[Marblehead]

Okay, let's see what I can do with this.  As I have mentioned before I read the Art of War as a guide as to how I should interact with the rest of the universe.

 

My comment about The Field Manual is based in my Army days.  We had Regulations, Standing Operating Procedures and then our Field Manuals.

 

The Regulations are the "Dos and Don'ts".

 

The Standard Operating Procedures are the "How we normally do things here".

 

The Field Manuals are for conditions that vary and offer suggestions as to how to stay alive and accomplish your mission.

 

 

 

IX. The Army on the March

1. Sun Tzu said: We come now to the question of encamping the army, and observing signs of the enemy. Pass quickly over mountains, and keep in the neighborhood of valleys.

 

Stay in areas that are easy to maneuver.  The path of least resistance.

2. Camp in high places, facing the sun. Do not climb heights in order to fight. So much for mountain warfare.

 

Hold the high ground whenever possible.  This is for better viewing of the surroundings as well as being able to better defend it.

3. After crossing a river, you should get far away from it.

 

You never want to be in a position where you cannot perform a strategic withdrawal.

4. When an invading force crosses a river in its onward march, do not advance to meet it in mid-stream. It will be best to let half the army get across, and then deliver your attack.

 

That's because the second half will still be putting maximum effort at getting out of the water and on land where they can fight.  While in the water they are pretty much harmless.

5. If you are anxious to fight, you should not go to meet the invader near a river which he has to cross.

 

You will be taking the change of pinning yourself against the river with no escape.

6. Moor your craft higher up than the enemy, and facing the sun. Do not move up-stream to meet the enemy. So much for river warfare.

 

Again, keep to higher ground when conflict is likely.  (And keep the sun in the enemy's eye so they cannot see well.

7. In crossing salt-marshes, your sole concern should be to get over them quickly, without any delay.

 

You cannot defend yourself well in these areas.

8. If forced to fight in a salt-marsh, you should have water and grass near you, and get your back to a clump of trees. So much for operations in salt-marches.

 

And get to dry land as soon as possible.

9. In dry, level country, take up an easily accessible position with rising ground to your right and on your rear, so that the danger may be in front, and safety lie behind. So much for campaigning in flat country.

 

And establish as large a perimeter of defense as possilbe.

10. These are the four useful branches of military knowledge which enabled the Yellow Emperor to vanquish four several sovereigns.

 

Okay.

11. All armies prefer high ground to low and sunny places to dark.

 

As mentioned above.

12. If you are careful of your men, and camp on hard ground, the army will be free from disease of every kind, and this will spell victory.

 

The welfare of the troops is the leader's first responsibility, even more important than accomplishing the mission.

13. When you come to a hill or a bank, occupy the sunny side, with the slope on your right rear. Thus you will at once act for the benefit of your soldiers and utilize the natural advantages of the ground.

 

Again, talking about higher ground.

14. When, in consequence of heavy rains up-country, a river which you wish to ford is swollen and flecked with foam, you must wait until it subsides.

 

Don't put your men's life at risk unnecessarily.

15. Country in which there are precipitous cliffs with torrents running between, deep natural hollows, confined places, tangled thickets, quagmires and crevasses, should be left with all possible speed and not approached.

 

Don't get yourself closed in with no avenue of escape or room to maneuver.

16. While we keep away from such places, we should get the enemy to approach them; while we face them, we should let the enemy have them on his rear.

 

Well, of course.

17. If in the neighborhood of your camp there should be any hilly country, ponds surrounded by aquatic grass, hollow basins filled with reeds, or woods with thick undergrowth, they must be carefully routed out and searched; for these are places where men in ambush or insidious spies are likely to be lurking.

 

Always try to know where your enemy is.

18. When the enemy is close at hand and remains quiet, he is relying on the natural strength of his position.

 

Indeed.

19. When he keeps aloof and tries to provoke a battle, he is anxious for the other side to advance.

 

If he is out of harm's way let him waste his energy.

20. If his place of encampment is easy of access, he is tendering a bait.

 

Beware of deception.

21. Movement amongst the trees of a forest shows that the enemy is advancing. The appearance of a number of screens in the midst of thick grass means that the enemy wants to make us suspicious.

 

And beware of traps.

22. The rising of birds in their flight is the sign of an ambuscade. Startled beasts indicate that a sudden attack is coming.

 

Yep.

23. When there is dust rising in a high column, it is the sign of chariots advancing; when the dust is low, but spread over a wide area, it betokens the approach of infantry. When it branches out in different directions, it shows that parties have been sent to collect firewood. A few clouds of dust moving to and fro signify that the army is encamping.

 

Awareness.

24. Humble words and increased preparations are signs that the enemy is about to advance. Violent language and driving forward as if to the attack are signs that he will retreat.

 

But not always.  Remember deception.

25. When the light chariots come out first and take up a position on the wings, it is a sign that the enemy is forming for battle.

 

The chariots will arrive first.  Defend against them primarily.

26. Peace proposals unaccompanied by a sworn covenant indicate a plot.

 

Deception.

27. When there is much running about and the soldiers fall into rank, it means that the critical moment has come.

 

Yep.

28. When some are seen advancing and some retreating, it is a lure.

 

Deception.

29. When the soldiers stand leaning on their spears, they are faint from want of food.

 

Generally true.  Could be a good time for an attack.

30. If those who are sent to draw water begin by drinking themselves, the army is suffering from thirst.

 

Again, possibly a good time to attack.

31. If the enemy sees an advantage to be gained and makes no effort to secure it, the soldiers are exhausted.

 

Again.

32. If birds gather on any spot, it is unoccupied. Clamor by night betokens nervousness.

 

A benefit of being a bird watcher.

33. If there is disturbance in the camp, the general's authority is weak. If the banners and flags are shifted about, sedition is afoot. If the officers are angry, it means that the men are weary.

 

Again, possibly a good time to attack.

34. When an army feeds its horses with grain and kills its cattle for food, and when the men do not hang their cooking-pots over the camp-fires, showing that they will not return to their tents, you may know that they are determined to fight to the death.

 

This would likely be a bad time to attack.

35. The sight of men whispering together in small knots or speaking in subdued tones points to disaffection amongst the rank and file.

 

The leaders may be losing control of their men.

36. Too frequent rewards signify that the enemy is at the end of his resources; too many punishments betray a condition of dire distress.

 

Your enemy is becoming weak.

37. To begin by bluster, but afterwards to take fright at the enemy's numbers, shows a supreme lack of intelligence.

 

Know your enemy before taking action.

38. When envoys are sent with compliments in their mouths, it is a sign that the enemy wishes for a truce.

 

But beware of deceptions.

39. If the enemy's troops march up angrily and remain facing ours for a long time without either joining battle or taking themselves off again, the situation is one that demands great vigilance and circumspection.

 

This could be a ploy into disaster.

40. If our troops are no more in number than the enemy, that is amply sufficient; it only means that no direct attack can be made. What we can do is simply to concentrate all our available strength, keep a close watch on the enemy, and obtain reinforcements.

 

Or use deception to draw them into an undefendable position.

41. He who exercises no forethought but makes light of his opponents is sure to be captured by them.

 

More likely killed.  Taking prisoners is wasteful for your troops.

42. If soldiers are punished before they have grown attached to you, they will not prove submissive; and, unless submissive, then will be practically useless. If, when the soldiers have become attached to you, punishments are not enforced, they will still be useless.

 

Again, the welfare of the troops.

43. Therefore soldiers must be treated in the first instance with humanity, but kept under control by means of iron discipline. This is a certain road to victory.

 

Yep.  But not a given.

44. If in training soldiers commands are habitually enforced, the army will be well-disciplined; if not, its discipline will be bad.

 

You better have well-trained troops.

45. If a general shows confidence in his men but always insists on his orders being obeyed, the gain will be mutual.

 

Questioning during training is good.  Questioning during combat is not.

[Stosh]

.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Actually, it has been pointed out by numerous military strategists that the Viet Cong followed the "Art of War" very closely whereas the Allies did not.

 

The end result shows the value of the "Art of War".

[Michael Sternbach]

Its interesting to see these considerations spelled out, and a stance taken on which actions to prefer, but say in Vietnam, Im thinking Charlie did a lot of the reverse. If you want to spend time training men and park them on some isolated hilltop facing the sun, Well Id be happy to to have disposable infantry shoot you from the shade of the trees, at night, and beating you to dig in on the opposite bank of a river. Then retreat to a concealing marsh where Ive got a thousand exit plans, and you wont follow.

Only that I expected this move of yours, and have the bulk of my army waiting for you in the aquatic grass surrounding ponds, in hollow basins filled with reeds, and in woods with thick undergrowth. <Echoing, mad laughter>

[Stosh]

.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Stosh]

.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Michael Sternbach]

No you dont , given that we started equal in strength you couldnt be everywhere both on the hill and in the valley ,unless you have succeeded in arranging to meet my greater strength with lesser forces in the marsh. To get to the marsh you had to eschew the advice you thought best , Without my help youve succeeded in dividng your forces, to face a stronger force with a weaker ,abandoning tsun tsus advice to fight in a marsh. If you try to help your aquatic soldiers with those from the hill then you have to leave the high ground. If you leave my men with their backs against a wall, they will fight like demons, and they were expendable anyway ,since I havent invested time in their training. Youd never know how the hell I beat you, since it was you who beat you.

 

Dream on, Stosh Tzu. Your men are poorly trained? Ha! Mine can break a brick without touching it! Except for the ones I use as a bait, those are expendable, of course.

[Marblehead]

That only means that those military strategists are idiots.

So you are qualified to judge the value of what they have determined?

 

Why should this be said of them ? Because they dont understand that using EVERY strategy effectively is the art of war.

But Stosh, that's exactly what the Viet Cong did.  It is not what we did.  All our senior military wanted to do was use the high-tech, very expensive military weapons.  The Viet Cong dug tunnels in the ground to avoid the weapons thereby making them of no use.  The Agent Orange likely harmed more of our own troops than it harmed the Viet Cong.

 

And they are reconstructing events to fit their own predelictions rather than learn.

Not true.  They didn't make any predictions.  They only spoke to the results.

 

In the short term Plenty of the enemy of either side was killed.,the U S continued , the Chinese didnt take it all , ,, in the long view that conflict didnt decide the fate of either communism OR capitalism.

The Chinese didn't need to continue.  They saw that the Viet Cong were doing a fine job all on their own save for some out-of-date small arms the Chinese gave to them.

 

We had no need to fight Communism.  It does, over time, defeat itself.

 

America just wanted to have someone to beat up on after we had a total failure in Cuba.

 

All we did was have another total failure in Vietnam.

[Stosh]

.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Stosh]

.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Yes , clearly , and I laid out the rationale so you could check my assertion , but I don't see you doing the same here. I see what looks like blind alignment with authority figures. tsk tsk

That is called ignoring the argument.

 

What failure? like I said,  we continued on.  Did we not ? I notice that youre treating what I said as rhetorical ,, basically because its so obvious, lots of people do, its a handy way of dismissing what you already know.  The thing that gets me , is that you choose to blind yourself so you can oppose my point. I guess its too persuasive.

So if our strategy was so great in Cuba why did we lose?

 

If our strategy was so great in Vietnam why did we lose.

 

We lost first and foremost because we did not have a valid mission.

 

We lost in Iraq for the same reason.

 

And we still haven't won anything in Afghanistan.

 

And we are air-dropping weapons to ISIS in Syria.  We don't even have a reason to be in Syria.  Let Syria and their ally Russia deal with the Muslim Brotherhood, Hezbollah, and ISIS.  All three of those groups are Classified as Terror Groups by the US government.  Why the fuck are we supporting them?

[Marblehead]

One more point:  the US CIA is doing a good job protecting the Poppy Fields in Afghanistan.

[Michael Sternbach]

Fantasy, you're sinking into it, and missing the fact my strategy is better , beats you at every turn. You can imagine breaking bricks.. go ahead. . It hurts less than realizing you don't understand the paradigm set before you. 

 

No matter how good your strategy, you can't win a war if your men are losers.

[Stosh]

.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Michael Sternbach]

Sounds good, but that doesnt mean its sound. I commend your salesmanship... you started with equal troop numbers more disciplined and skilled also had the high ground, but you squandered those advantages.

 

Hey, is it my fault that I have to cross those daoforsaken marshlands in order to free the Jade Princess that you have kidnapped?

 

I dont even have to fight your troops, If you leave the swamp the strategy is ruined, if you wait for me you rot in the swamp. If you come out to attack me down hill youre outnumbered more than two to one. So waiting in vain ,the greater part of your army will suffer in the swamp with no fire, to feed or dry them, they will become the sick and disaffected losers. fighting up to me from a swamp if they dont just slog away.,,and then I can starve your remaining troops to surrender.You wasted all your advantages with a bad plan, and youd be lucky to survive your failure.

 

Your words are just a red herring. You are obviously desperately trying to cover up your plan to ambush me in the marshlands which you know is your only remote chance to somewhat hurt me. And knowing this gives me the opportunity to ambush you. Needless to say, my highly trained elite soldiers would wipe the floor with your amateurish mercenaries anywhere any time - but I will gladly take the opportunity to reduce the risk of accidental casualties to nil, as I have invested plenty of time and money to educate them.

 

Also, my soldiers won't have to lie in wait long, as my spies continuously inform me about your army's current position - which was incredibly easy to infiltrate.

 

And just to top it off, Marblehead's soldiers are more than willing to support me now since you have publicly mocked them. Taking on two enemies at the same time, that would be most unwise, even if MH wouldn't have thoroughly studied The Art of War meanwhile in Sean Tzu's nefarious Dao school.

[Marblehead]

I and my men are remaining neutral until I see a clear advantage to destroy the both of you.

[Michael Sternbach]

Marblehead already commented expertly and extensively on ch. IX: "The Army on the March", so I will limit myself to comment on selected paragraphs, or groups thereof.

 

1. Sun Tzu said: We come now to the question of encamping the army, and observing signs of the enemy. Pass quickly over mountains, and keep in the neighborhood of valleys.

 

A good advice also to apply in daily life: Overcome problems quickly, and choose the way of least resistance.

 

3. After crossing a river, you should get far away from it.

 

When you have overcome an addiction, illness, bad relationship, any kind of problem, it is advisable that you get some distance from it, psychologically and, in many cases, also physically.

 

7. In crossing salt-marshes, your sole concern should be to get over them quickly, without any delay.

 

Same concept as in crossing mountains.

 

13. When you come to a hill or a bank, occupy the sunny side, with the slope on your right rear. Thus you will at once act for the benefit of your soldiers and utilize the natural advantages of the ground.

 

Always recognize and make use of natural advantages.

 

14. When, in consequence of heavy rains up-country, a river which you wish to ford is swollen and flecked with foam, you must wait until it subsides.

 

When faced with insurmountable obstacles, rather than wasting your strength and putting yourself at risk, wait until the situation changes in your favour.

 

16. While we keep away from such places, we should get the enemy to approach them; while we face them, we should let the enemy have them on his rear.

 

By the same token, we should navigate our opponents into obstacles (including one of them into another).

 

18. When the enemy is close at hand and remains quiet, he is relying on the natural strength of his position.

 

When things in our life are quiet, this doesn't mean there can't be problems under the surface. Seeing those and acting on them when they are still small is one of the teachings of Lao Tzu.

 

19. When he keeps aloof and tries to provoke a battle, he is anxious for the other side to advance.

 

20. If his place of encampment is easy of access, he is tendering a bait.

 

Sometimes it's best to deliberately offer the opponent an opening, so you know in advance where the opponent is likely to attack. Thus you are ready for it and can block and counter-attack immediately.

 

At the same time, watch out when an opponent presents an opening; it might well be a trap.

 

I remember a practice fight in my early Karate days. My black belt opponent held up his front hand untypically high, leaving his rib cage uncovered; I knew he was trying to bait me and didn't go for it. I waited until he came forward with a combination of faints, presenting further apparent openings, to which I likewise didn't react. Instead, I looked out for an unintended opening, which he gave me a split second later, then caught him by a dry simple reverse punch. He went: "Shit!"

 

21. Movement amongst the trees of a forest shows that the enemy is advancing. The appearance of a number of screens in the midst of thick grass means that the enemy wants to make us suspicious.

 

22. The rising of birds in their flight is the sign of an ambuscade. Startled beasts indicate that a sudden attack is coming.

 

23. When there is dust rising in a high column, it is the sign of chariots advancing; when the dust is low, but spread over a wide area, it betokens the approach of infantry. When it branches out in different directions, it shows that parties have been sent to collect firewood. A few clouds of dust moving to and fro signify that the army is encamping.

 

24. Humble words and increased preparations are signs that the enemy is about to advance. Violent language and driving forward as if to the attack are signs that he will retreat.

 

25. When the light chariots come out first and take up a position on the wings, it is a sign that the enemy is forming for battle.

 

Likewise in life, while avoiding paranoia, be attentive to early signs of trouble. Often, an opponent isn't even aware that they are giving something away in that manner.

 

26. Peace proposals unaccompanied by a sworn covenant indicate a plot.

 

27. When there is much running about and the soldiers fall into rank, it means that the critical moment has come.

 

28. When some are seen advancing and some retreating, it is a lure.

 

Be ready to read people's minds...

 

29. When the soldiers stand leaning on their spears, they are faint from want of food.

 

30. If those who are sent to draw water begin by drinking themselves, the army is suffering from thirst.

 

31. If the enemy sees an advantage to be gained and makes no effort to secure it, the soldiers are exhausted.

 

...and bodies (body language!).

 

33. If there is disturbance in the camp, the general's authority is weak. If the banners and flags are shifted about, sedition is afoot. If the officers are angry, it means that the men are weary.

 

34. When an army feeds its horses with grain and kills its cattle for food, and when the men do not hang their cooking-pots over the camp-fires, showing that they will not return to their tents, you may know that they are determined to fight to the death.

 

35. The sight of men whispering together in small knots or speaking in subdued tones points to disaffection amongst the rank and file.

 

36. Too frequent rewards signify that the enemy is at the end of his resources; too many punishments betray a condition of dire distress.

 

Understand what is behind people's behaviour.

 

39. If the enemy's troops march up angrily and remain facing ours for a long time without either joining battle or taking themselves off again, the situation is one that demands great vigilance and circumspection.

 

As they are probably carefully setting up an attack - possibly keeping you in place while waiting for reinforcement.

 

42. If soldiers are punished before they have grown attached to you, they will not prove submissive; and, unless submissive, then will be practically useless. If, when the soldiers have become attached to you, punishments are not enforced, they will still be useless.

 

43. Therefore soldiers must be treated in the first instance with humanity, but kept under control by means of iron discipline. This is a certain road to victory.

 

44. If in training soldiers commands are habitually enforced, the army will be well-disciplined; if not, its discipline will be bad.

 

45. If a general shows confidence in his men but always insists on his orders being obeyed, the gain will be mutual.

 

This is an appeal to being clear and consequent.

[ilumairen]

This is quite the interesting thread... the weaving of words both eloquent and pithy. Yet it appears the fighting men have failed to realize the significance of the Jade Princess and her relation to the Queen Mother. It matters not that the men are not of faith, as Michael's cause has been deemed 'just', and the mysterious feminine has now been brought into play.

 

'Oh Fortuna, Velut Luna'

 

Just as in the case of Macchiavelli's prince, Cesare Borgia, Stosh will inevitably meet with misfortune beyond his ability to foresee or control, and the Jade Princess will be freed.

 

(PS If anyone is interested in war from a feminine perspective I highly recommend looking into the life of Katerina Sforza - a one time hostage of the famed Cesare Borgia.)

 

:that was fun:

[Stosh]

.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[ilumairen]

I don't foresee that happening.

 

Neither did Cesare, an astute strategist himself. And yet it did happen.

[Marblehead]

 (PS If anyone is interested in war from a feminine perspective I highly recommend looking into the life of Katerina Sforza - a one time hostage of the famed Cesare Borgia.) :that was fun:

I enjoy the documentaries about female warriors.  There have been a few.

[Stosh]

'

Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Stosh]

'

Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh