The Art of War

[thelerner]

Within those lines lie the reason Washington was victorious against the British and why Hannibal failed against Rome.

I don't know.  In truth luck plays a major role.  I was just reading how Hannibal himself allegedly in a badly planned demonstrations, smashed his cane down, causing an avalanche that buried many of his troops and half his horses and some elephants.  A catastrophe, yet he won.

 

I've read the British lost not due to American military brilliance but they didn't like the extreme cost in lives and treasury of fighting and killing there backward cousins.  From start to finish they lacked the will. 

[Marblehead]

I've read the British lost not due to American military brilliance but they didn't like the extreme cost in lives and treasury of fighting and killing there backward cousins.  From start to finish they lacked the will. 

This may well be true.  It is true that the British had a large number of foreign troops in their military units.

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

And Stosh, that is why I place so much importance to the concept of flexibility.

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

 

Philosophically , I think this arbitrary aspect deserves more emphasis. 

Well, sure.  But it is difficult the "What if"s of a situation.  I would venture to say that many, if not most, have causes that are so well hidden that the truth will never be known.

 

The best we can do oftentimes is make our plans, insure the plans are enacted, observe the results, and form our conclusions.  Many of the unknowns will remain just that - unknown.

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

I can't presume to know what Alexander's ultimate goals were.  Of course there would have been many who hated him.  That goes with the job.  The Egyptians seem to have liked him though.  I can understand some Persians not liking him.

 

Wars are always full of "What if?"s.  What if Hitler had not invaded Russia?  What if the US had not dropped the bombs?  Decisions are made as to what course of action to take and the orders are expected to be followed. 

 

The decisions were made based on what was known, not what was unknown.  Duh!

 

But flexibility allows for adjustments after the course of action has begun.  There are many special units that operate on the premise "Accomplish the mission.".  Nothing else is considered.

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Well.  I don't know if Alexander actually killed anyone.  His soldiers did.  But from Alexander's POV he killed only those who needed to be killed.

 

And BTW, the Persians killed more indiscriminately than Alexander or his men ever did.  That is why Alexander's men totally destroyed the Persian capitol without Alexander's permission.  His men felt that the Persians needed to be killed and the capitol destroyed.  Wars work that way sometimes too.

 

Again, I can't be bothered by "What if?"s.  Those kinds of thoughts cause one to lose focus and be killed.  Be alert, be aware, and be flexible enough to change course if conditions dictate.  If you are killed you will never be able to accomplish your mission.

 

Being killed and dying naturally are just two different aspects of the same event.  Death comes to all.  And as you just said, Tao allows it so who am I to try to argue the point?  Better to die trying to do the right thing than to die trying to avoid death.

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

he has to take credit for the destruction. 

He did do that and had the city rebuilt.

 

 "Better to die trying to do the right thing than to die trying to avoid death." This is opinion, and I'm not challenging it , but I would say that the Taoists guiding fathers , seemed to have some mixed presentations on several aspects of this opinion. I would think however , that Tsun tsu would've been trying to promote the not dying part , ahead of perceptions on 'righteousness' , would you agree that his feelings were probably as I described ?, or more along your own ? 

Yeah, that was very subjective on my part and really not even a valid statement from my mind.

 

And I agree, not dying prematurely is most important.  Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu and Sun Tzu speak to this.

 

But personally, I would put myself in harm's way to save someone I cared dearly about.  If death results, so be it.

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Whatever the sentiments are that one has on this subject ,it probably could use more explanation, depending on the circumstances. Its a catchy sentence but rather a value heavy subject. 

I have been known to make statements that even I cannot explain.  A thought comes to mind and I communicate it to others without any consideration of its logic or rationality.

[Marblehead]

We are going rather off topic here but I think it is still linked with the Art of War.  (The Art of Living?)

Understandable , depending on what one considers premature, these need not be in contention.

Chuang Tzu did speak to this.

 

I get the impression that they were often talking about foolish waste of life rather than just timing. And would be of opinion that it was far better to have lived well and died a bit sooner  than to have grown very old , never having gotten out there and spent their life well. It seems some other Daoists really felt that they could completely avoid death if they just found that magical balance between yin and yang , and so were actively pursuing eternal life through the mystical arts.

I think it would be fair to suggest that Sun Tzu valued the life of his subordinates.  Without them no war could be waged, no society defended.

 

Also, I doubt he spent much time thinking about the mystical aspects of life.  He was well aware of he finality of physical death.

 

As for me , I'd say ordinary homeostasis is as close as one gets to that kind of balance, years take their toll regardless. .......In most cultures ,, I would say that it is valued, that a person would sacrifice even their life,  for a good greater than themselves, or ,   even as a culmination of who that individual person was.

Yep.  We can see that even today with the suicide bombers.  (I think they have been mis-guided bat apparently they don't.

 

The length of a life in years, I think ,,they would have seen as arbitrary as the apparent size of a mountain. And figure, like anyone else they wouldn't have felt so fond of the idea of scrambling to avoid an end which could not actually be prevented. 

Loving life , but still being able to say  So be it .. that there,  is a saving grace , to allow a man to live well and long. .. IMO

Length of life can never be compared with quality of life.  And here I am speaking mainly of one's inner peace and contentment.

 

To do what needs be done without consideration of praise or blame. 

[Michael Sternbach]

 

Better to die trying to do the right thing than to die trying to avoid death.

 

 

 

I have been known to make statements that even I cannot explain.  A thought comes to mind and I communicate it to others without any consideration of its logic or rationality.

 

 

Don't you agree, Jim?

 

Length of life can never be compared with quality of life.  And here I am speaking mainly of one's inner peace and contentment.

 

Right, it's "quality over quantity". - But, incidentally, peace and contentment are prerequisites for a long life (as they help you preserve your chi).

 

To do what needs be done without consideration of praise or blame. 

 

[Marblehead]

Don't you agree, Jim?

Yes, I agree.  Logic is wiser.  But spontaneity is more fun.

 

And I agree with this too.  But then, a little empathy is good too.

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Michael Sternbach]

Yes, I agree.  Logic is wiser.  But spontaneity is more fun.

 

Actually, I don't equate logic with wisdom. There is a lot of wisdom in spontaneity. Being logical can be wise, to be sure, but logical/linear thinking only gets you so far. Even Mr Spock came to understand that when he was older.

 

Daoism emphasizes intuition over logic, I would say.

[Marblehead]

Caring about ANYthing , attaches you to its fate. Including your kids, momma, brother, dog  , your own opinions, likes, dislikes , flowers , whales, your health , life , happiness. 

That's okay.  I can handle the responsibility.  I'm a big boy now.

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

And therefore self appointed prisoner, re: other folks concerns? 

But there is no door on the prison and I can leave any time I feel like it.

 

Remember, I have been divorced three times.  I do know how to get out of jail.  But I'll tell you this, in real life there is no "Get out of jail free" cards.  There is always payment to be made.

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

   What mysterious payment would that be? 

You just couldn't resist the temptation to get too personal, could you?

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh