Zhan zhuang length

[Manaus]

Hello,

I'm currently experiencing aversion for the length of time in my practice. After 3/4 of time, I'm starting to hope for the end.

In Way of Energy Lam Kam Chuen talks about aiming at 15 minutes after 6 weeks, and 20 after 9. I suppose this is for the young and healthy, and later in the book says some cases have specific adaptations.

As well, Yu Yong Nian says that if you end the session without tiredness, the time is too short.

What is your sign of 'enough'? Comfort zone, or beyond?

 

Thanks!

[Miffymog]

Simple, after 3/4 of the time stop then. Maintaining your motivation is more important than the duration. If it's going well, you can always stand for longer in a few months time, there is no rush to increase the length of the stand.

[idquest]

Agreed. You should stop practice while still wanting to continue it. If you do practice until you hate it, you'll just drop the whole thing altogether sooner or later.

[JohnC]

I work in 30 minute increments. Generally I like 1 hour.

 

I set a time limit, then stick to it. If I get tired, I drop my hands for a moment, then get right back to it.

 

John

[soaring crane]

That aversion is the energy that will be converted and stored through the standing practice. Don't stop too quickly, but do adjust time to allow for age, experience and health.

[soaring crane]

a little more on my previous post - think about:

• on your marks
• get set
• go!

Where does Zhan Zhuang fit into that?

 

 

 

It's the middle, the "get set" stage. That anticipation of the "go!" is there, but the "go!" doesn't happen. Like a cat watching a bird's nest.

 

And because we're standing in anticipation, our conditioning tells us that something must be on its way; there must be a reason for standing there, because, if there's nothing happening, well, we'd normally just sit down, no?. Aversion to lounging on a sofa? Not likely. But aversion to standing still is completey normal because standing still, without fidgeting or slouching, or talking, is not "normal".

 

Nervous energy begins to build up, and can take many forms e.g. impatience, sexual arousal, virtually any emotion, physical stiffness, strange muscular spasms, yawning or other breathing irregularities, etc. These are all different expressions of the same thing - energy denied an outlet.

 

Basically, energy is energy. It can't be created or destroyed but it can be collected and converted, and stored. That's ZZ.

 

So, there you are. Standing for no good reason. All this potential for action, but you don't act. The will is there but the body remains static. If you continue at least for a while, a portion (nothing like 100%) of that potential action, the energy, returns to where it came from, back to the source.

[LAOLONG]

From Taoist point of view, is it natural to stand motionless ?

[Manaus]

@cobi ZZ is not frozen liveless standing, it is full of activity. Somehow it is discovering the white dot within the black field, even if I don't think that is the aim of practice.

[soaring crane]

From Taoist point of view, is it natural to stand motionless ?

 

Taoists observe and emulate nature

 

[YiYinYiYang]

.

Edited August 9, 2017 by YiYinYiYang

[soaring crane]

 

I'm aware that what i just said might be not true for every Zhan Zhuang systems but since Yu Yong Nian was mentioned i thought that i could say few words.

 

Peace.

 

I think you're absolutely right in what you say. People have a difficult time locating that middle ground between comfort zone, as you call it, and overexertion. This is what I keep trying to stress in these discussions when they appear here.

 

The comfort zone in posture is especially tricky to overcome without a competent observer to help out. Over the years and decades, bad posture habits take hold and what eventually feels "comfortable" is in fact a self-feeding defect that only grows worse over time. Correct posture will almost always feel uncomfortable and unnatural to a beginner.

 

But I disagree that it's a waste of time to practice even when things aren't 100% optimal. I've experienced too often the healing and strengthening benefits of standing still in people who were doing many things "wrong" to make that conclusion. I see the basic act of standing and not moving as a powerful exercise in itself and believe fine-tuning it only increases the benefit.

 

Also, feel free to share your thoughts any time pn any topic :-)

[YiYinYiYang]

.

Edited August 9, 2017 by YiYinYiYang

[Aetherous]

A little bit of standing benefits the kidneys, but too much standing harms the kidneys. Too much is when it makes your legs stiff just afterward, just enough is when it activates your legs or basically makes you "ready". Just my opinion.

[Manaus]

According to my reading of Yu Yong Nian's book, the range is between fatigue disappearing right away, and fatigue that cannot fade even after a sleep, and lasts several days (most important sign).

[thelerner]

Intensity should be according to one's own level but it should be enough to produce effects and ensure progression.

 

The big problem is that a beginner can't monitor himself, there is tiny adjustments to make in order to achieve the required intensity and only a teacher or at least an experienced practionner can do that. Alone we are more likely to end up doing 1hour or more but without real effects whatsoever, this is what is called 白练, white practice, useless training. Signs of correct practice is that you become physically stronger, chronic diseases fade away and a kind of positive outlook in life appears. The sign of enough intensity is that the "string" is neither tense nor slack, once it begins to loosen you tighten it a little, that's all.

 

IME, it is better to do 20mn everyday with enough intensity than 1 hour and being disgusted for the rest of the week because of the monotony of a useless training in the "comfort zone". In certain conditions under the monitoring of a good teacher it is possible to practice at a very high intensity for long periods but in this case almost the double of the time spend in Zhang Zhuang is spent doing moving exercises. In this case progress are huge and without side effects if the teacher know what he is doing.

 

I'm aware that what i just said might be not true for every Zhan Zhuang systems but since Yu Yong Nian was mentioned i thought that i could say few words.

 

Peace.

How do we 'play' with intensity?  I assume its by lowering the stance or holding the arms at a more difficult angle?  Or is it something less tangible?   A sharper mental awareness?  Like Soaring Crane alludes to in post #6.  Or is it a combination of the two?

[lifeforce]

How do we 'play' with intensity? I assume its by lowering the stance or holding the arms at a more difficult angle? Or is it something less tangible? A sharper mental awareness? Like Soaring Crane alludes to in post #6. Or is it a combination of the two?

Opposing force. Pushing/pulling, exploding outward/compressing inward, lifting/sinking of all the limbs, body and head. This is the difference between just standing passively, and cultivating strength and power.

[YiYinYiYang]

.

 

Edited August 12, 2017 by YiYinYiYang

[Infolad1]

Hello,

I'm currently experiencing aversion for the length of time in my practice. After 3/4 of time, I'm starting to hope for the end.

In Way of Energy Lam Kam Chuen talks about aiming at 15 minutes after 6 weeks, and 20 after 9. I suppose this is for the young and healthy, and later in the book says some cases have specific adaptations.

As well, Yu Yong Nian says that if you end the session without tiredness, the time is too short.

What is your sign of 'enough'? Comfort zone, or beyond?

 

Thanks!

Hi Manaus,

 

Go at the pace that YOU'RE comfortable with. Only you know your body.

 

I teach ZZ to various age groups weekly (senior centers, community centers, etc.). Some of them I can teach

ZZ standing. At the senior center, I had to modify it, so I teach a lot of them seated.

 

Both groups get positive results (increased relaxation, strength, & mobility), but It will vary, depending on age,

physical ailments, etc.

 

From my experience, it's more important to be consistent, versus length of time. Ideally, you're going to be

doing this as a lifestyle. You'll get to 15 minutes plus eventually, as long as you stick to it.

 

I usually start folks with 5 minutes, increasing it every couple of weeks, until they're able to do 15 minutes, after 3 to 

4 months. But if they don't practice at home, they never get there.

 

Once your legs, and/or arms start trembling, let them for about a minute, then stop. You've reached your limit. Attempt to go a little further each workout. Same thing for more advanced stances

 

I would also check out Mark Cohen's excellent book, and Wordpress site, on ZZ:

 

Inside Zhan Zhuang: First Edition 

 

Inside Zhan Zhuang Site

 

 

ZZ helps with so many things, I'm a bit of a zealot about doing it, and helping others experience it's benefits. 

 

But you've got to do what's good for you. I hope this helps.

 

Cheers!

[Manaus]

Guys you are all giving me great suggestions. I hope you will forgive if I stick to the current source and try to deepen my understanding. 

 

I received different impressions from reading Lam Kam Chuen's book, that you should go beyond what's confortable, "to grow beyond your normal limits of endurance". So after my practice, today, I felt exhausted and sad. Is it qi work, or is it overdoing?

 

Professor Yu says the main sign of overdoing is that you cannot feel rest even after sleeping. Beside pain, lack of energy, feeling exhausted and loss of appetite and so on. But the main sign to take into account is that we do not recover simply after sleeping.

I cannot really understand that But, does it mean that the other signs are of less importance, and can be disregarded?

I take special care in wording.

 

Thanks