Ego and enlightenment

[3bob]

Yep, Mr. N. it takes a will to surrender a will

Edited August 5, 2015 by 3bob

[Karl]

Yep, Mr. N. it takes a will to surrender a will

 

Ultimately it cannot be done, but that doesn't matter as long as you form the impression that it can be so. It begins breaking down the 'I am the doer' thought. Until 'I am the perciever' is the more prominent. Then finally just perceiving without either the thought 'I am the doer' 'I am the perciever'.

[Apech]

I've come in a bit late to this thread - but never mind.  This whole ego thing is to my mind a bit of a can of worms.  For a start the idea of the empirical ego as a problem to us comes from Western Analytical Psychiatry (thank you Mr. Freud).  Somehow we are supposed to be in a tussle with our id and superego and God knows what else.  So posit a part of our mind which like a nervous party host tries to juggle the situation so we all get on.  Very Woody Allen.

 

In Indian philosophy there are various terms - ahamkara (self creator?) , manas and of course Atman.   One thing the Atman definitely isn't is the empirical ego - it's more like an eternal soul or essence of you.  These are all translated (badly) into English as ego, some are closer than others but none is an exact fit.

 

So we are handed down - often by people who should know better - instructions like 'you have to get rid of or remove your ego' or to make it sound more Zen 'your ego-mind'.

 

The result? Thousands of Westerners scurrying around trying to be less themselves.  Compare this with the Thai, Tibetan, Indian masters who seem to be more themselves - or at least more comfortable being who they are.

 

So like many terms - e.g. 'mind', consciousness', 'spirit' - it's all lost in translation.

 

Of course it's a good idea to stop clinging on to your needs and appetites.  Its a good idea to be a better person, kinder, more open, more compassionate.  But to be any use to anyone you have to be somebody.

 

Just a few thoughts.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Apech

[3bob]

Karl, this is not your circus alone so quit trying so hard to sell your peanuts,  "Utimately it cannot be done".

[ChiForce]

Karl, this is not your circus alone so quit trying so hard to sell your peanuts,  "Utimately it cannot be done".

Hahahahahahahahahahaha....the ego is saying it can not be killed??  Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.........  Oh boy, the ego death would be catastrophic for this individual.  Like a rabbit hole...a hole without ends in sight....Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.....  

[Karl]

Karl, this is not your circus alone so quit trying so hard to sell your peanuts,  "Utimately it cannot be done".

 

It can't. Man acts to improve his position. Always there is the selfish motive however well disguised. We do something in order to move from a position of greater unease to one of less. Isn't that exactly why we are here seeking whatever we happen to be seeking ?

 

That is why I say that you cannot subordinate and surrender completely, there is the element of surrender for some purpose.

[ChiForce]

In short, the ego is a dualistic manifestation of your mind and consciousness development, deriving from your reaction of your social surrounding and upbringing beliefs.   The Hindu and Buddhist notions of the Self is universal and primordial, a non-duality manifestation of an enlightened mind and consciousness.     

[Karl]

Hahahahahahahahahahaha....the ego is saying it can not be killed??  Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.........  Oh boy, the ego death would be catastrophic for this individual.  Like a rabbit hole...a hole without ends in sight....Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.....  

 

Been there done that.

 

Try cutting off your arm to save your arm.

 

If such a thing as ego exists, then it is integral, there is no way to split it or kill it.

 

Have you killed your ego ? Have you ever met anyone who has ?

 

Like the master did to his student when the student announced he was free of attachment. He told the student to him to swim naked and then he stole the students clothes and gave them to some passing vagabonds. Funny how the ego seemed to come back when the student saw what has happened.

 

I don't worry or care ego or not ego. It's immaterial either way. I seek neither to destroy or maintain.

[ChiForce]

Been there done that. Try cutting off your arm to save your arm. If such a thing as ego exists, then it is integral, there is no way to split it or kill it. Have you killed your ego ? Have you ever met anyone who has ? Like the master did to his student when the student announced he was free of attachment. He told the student to him to swim naked and then he stole the students clothes and gave them to some passing vagabonds. Funny how the ego seemed to come back when the student saw what has happened. I don't worry or care ego or not ego. It's immaterial either way. I seek neither to destroy or maintain.

Of course I did.    I saw Kali Ma, in my dreams.  I don't have samara dreams anymore.     I forgot, you don't cultivate and meditate.  Just psychologicalizing everything as long as it sounds good in your head.......

[3bob]

Apech, Nice post #28. 

 

I'd add that most of us human beings are in conflict within to some degree and in some way or another - it comes with the territory.

 

There is not just one ego so to speak or voice in our thoughts or feelings but many all vying for some type of place or action, thus there is this "I" and that "I" times how ever high the count goes...  so to be operating under one totally unified ego would be very rare, even more rare would be to operate under one unified spirit that ego can no longer steal from or effectively take its place.  And yes, there is eternal Atman but Atman is veiled until it is no longer veiled, not unlike the idea that a mile is not walked until it is walked even if the concept of having already finished such a walk might be dilly-dallied around with.

Edited August 5, 2015 by 3bob

[Karl]

In short, the ego is a dualistic manifestation of your mind and consciousness development, deriving from your reaction of your social surrounding and upbringing beliefs.   The Hindu and Buddhist notions of the Self is universal and primordial, a non-duality manifestation of an enlightened mind and consciousness.     

 

One is not the other.

 

There is only the self. If you want to see a egoic construct then that's what you will see. If you want to call it dualistic,mor a manifestation then it will be that also. If you say that dragons exist for you, then I assume they do. They don't exist for me.

[Karl]

Of course I did.    I saw Kali Ma, in my dreams.  I don't have samara dreams anymore.     I forgot, you don't cultivate and meditate.  Just psychologicalizing everything as long as it sounds good in your head.......

 

Have you met a living human being that has killed their ego ?

 

[ChiForce]

One is not the other. There is only the self. If you want to see a egoic construct then that's what you will see. If you want to call it dualistic,mor a manifestation then it will be that also. If you say that dragons exist for you, then I assume they do. They don't exist for me.

Just remember one thing...there are greater ego than yours.  The ego death could be catastrophic....  Like a emperor realizing that he has no cloths on...hehehehe.... 

[ChiForce]

Have you met a living human being that has killed their ego ?

Why would I go chasing and finding people living without an ego????   Hehehehehe  I see them in my dreams all the times, these highly realized beings. 

[3bob]

Karl, Going nuts proves nothing but being nutty.  Btw, being nuts is not all bad if one can detach from their nuts from time to time and also leave other peoples nuts well enough alone; ultimately such can be done.

[Karl]

Apech, Nice post #28. 

 

I'd add that most of us human beings are in conflict within to some degree and in some way or another - it comes with the territory.

 

There is not just one ego so to speak or voice in our thoughts or feelings but many all vying for some type of place or action, thus there is this "I" and that "I" times how ever high the count goes...  so to be operating under one totally unified ego would be very rare, even more rare would be to operate under one unified spirit that ego can no longer steal from or effectively take its place.  And yes, there is eternal Atman but Atman is veiled until it is no longer veiled, not unlike the idea that a mile is not walked until it is walked even if the concept of having already finished such a walk might be dilly-daddied around with.

 

'humans are in conflict to some degree'. Isn't that the truth ?

 

In NLP terms it was called 'parts' and the task was to integrate them.

 

So, recognise the conflict and resolve it. We have concepts that arise as thoughts and fight with each other as we try and make sense of them. There is nothing wrong with this conflict, it is entirely natural. It's only when we refuse to solve it, hold both conflicting views simultaneously or worse still, think that we should not be in conflict in the first place which then begins a chain.

 

 

[Karl]

Just remember one thing...there are greater ego than yours.  The ego death could be catastrophic....  Like a emperor realizing that he has no cloths on...hehehehe.... 

 

Just remember that I noticed you have dodged the question and not provided an answer. :-)

[ChiForce]

Just remember that I noticed you have dodged the question and not provided an answer. :-)

What question?    I have no questions.  Why would I need an answer????    I never worry about my ego death because I have no ego.  Is dead long ago. 

[Karl]

What question?    I have no questions.  Why would I need an answer????    I never worry about my ego death because I have no ego.  Is dead long ago. 

 

Hope it's not still floating around your brain like a mouldy hula hoop.

[Jetsun]

To kill something you have to find it first

[Karl]

To kill something you have to find it first

 

And then figure out how to kill it with a thought.

 

I'm having a Moby Dick moment.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Self-Enquiry – Destroy the ego

Identification with the Supreme is the only the other name for the destruction of the ego. (Ramana Maharshi, TWSRM, Question 130.)

 

Can the ego ever agree to kill itself? This question is a sure way to cherish the ego and not to kill it. If you seek the ego you will find it does not exist. That is the way to destroy it. (Ramana Maharshi, TWSRM, Question 657.)

Edited August 5, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[ChiForce]

And then figure out how to kill it with a thought. I'm having a Moby Dick moment.

Hehehehehehehehe...you are clueless.  You obviously do not understand the meaning of the word "life setbacks."    Is so easy to kill your ego.  Getting fired from your long cherished job???  Getting a brutal breakup with your girlfriend?  Getting a divorce?  You have no freaking ideas.  You think this is all some mind and word games. Hahahahahahaha.....  Like I said, there are greater ego than yours and would have no problems killing your ego.  Time and the eventuality are the enemies of the ego.  They would come for your long cherished ego. 

Edited August 5, 2015 by ChiForce

[ChiForce]

To kill something you have to find it first

Easy.  In your jobs?  Your relationship with your girlfriend?  Your marriage?  Just to name a few...you know.....  Hehehehehe.....

[ChiForce]

Self-Enquiry – Destroy the ego

Identification with the Supreme is the only the other name for the destruction of the ego. (Ramana Maharshi, TWSRM, Question 130.)

 

Can the ego ever agree to kill itself? This question is a sure way to cherish the ego and not to kill it. If you seek the ego you will find it does not exist. That is the way to destroy it. (Ramana Maharshi, TWSRM, Question 657.)

The way to destroy it is to let go of the ego attachments to forms and life situations that one holds dear to..like a marriage, your good job, and your relationship.  Some obviously has no ideas what is an ego until shits in life is blowing up in their faces.....