Ego and enlightenment

[Apech]

Is that a return trip because I wouldn't want to taxi down the runway just to go straight back to the terminal from which I had just embarked. Is the climate nice in Alone ? Are the women pretty, the men handsome, the wine strong, the music loud and the food delicious ?

 

Plotinus old chap ... look him up.

[Bindi]

This quick mind takes place when there is a very little or no informations from other chakras or psychic centers. When you walk in this state you feel yourself as if moving much more quicker then normally - it is amasing, everything is so quick for you and sharp, this one operates more on senses.

 

Then the super mind is more connected with heart, it seems slow, but can reach very deep informations and I experienced it as an actuall body of self inquiry and discrimination for what is not true, also theough it some insights come. Whatever you ask to this mind you will get the answer and you will be amased with its precission. He is volnurable, a magnificent giant that dont know anything about selishness, yet understands everything, pure knowing.

 

This is a really interesting breakdown of 'minds', thanks Kubba.

Interesting information on the fast and slow minds.

 

 

Then there is someting that can be called a lower mind which is basically the one that is responsible for dealing with dangers and works like an immunite system for external world. Whenever there is a noice or sth going on around you, this mind fires up and resarch the enviroment.

While awakening of this region you kind of feel yourself as a monkey, which is actually funny experience - you almost feel yourself as if in a moment you will start to make this noice as monkeys make when alerted.

 

This made me think of a time when I was out on a bush track with my two children who were very young at the time, the oldest would have been about two, and he had walked off the track a couple of steps right into the path of a venomous tiger snake which had reared up, flared out its neck and was facing him. I was a few steps away from him holding the baby, and all I could do was make a primal sound which reminded me at the time of what I imagined a howler monkey would sound like, a 'hoo hoo hoo' noise, it was decidedly pre verbal and dealing directly with the danger at hand, surely an occasion when I used what you describe as 'lower' mind. Amazingly my two year old looked at me and started walking towards me, exactly the response I would have wanted if I had been thinking or talking, and the snake quietly slithered away.  

 

 

Then there is a mind which carries the imaginary self which is basically oriented only on itself and causes problems and is fixated on many internal personas. I dont know the terminology but seems that this one covers the whole body with its centers, it is basically your body including subtle layers... It has its thinking process wich works in the forehead but it is just like the tip of the ice mountain - it is actually everywhere. People often confuse that insights or realisations happen through thinking proces of a forehead, but it is just the part of the mind that will transform- understanding happends through whole the body and it transform it.

Throug each chakra sensing ability you preceive the world around with all nuances, your body starts to become, as Adyashanti said one big sensing organ.

 

But this nomenclature isnt good cause they all are working symultaneously and each has its own function, and none is less important then other.

 

The knowledge of them is greater with expansion of prana, as if they have their own layers and divercity that havent seen in any book, maybe cause its impossible to put this grateness into words.

I understand ego as being fixated on 'unconscious' mind (lower manas) that is driven by persona, and lower manas simultaneously as being fixated on ego. Ego  ingratiatingly agrees with everything  lower manas thinks regardless of reality. Information I received in a dream showed me that lower manas needs to raise itself through awareness of its contrived persona to upper manas, where it is no longer driven by unconscious persona and can open to the higher senses, and in this way upper manas can see through ego's 'madness', ignore her 'ego stroking' words, and bring her to ajna to be 'healed'. Perhaps this answers an earlier question I had, and suggests that ego needs to be transcended and transformed, but not killed.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Bindi

[Kubba]

This made me think of a time when I was out on a bush track with my two children who were very young at the time, the oldest would have been about two, and he had walked off the track a couple of steps right into the path of a venomous tiger snake which had reared up, flared out its neck and was facing him. I was a few steps away from him holding the baby, and all I could do was make a primal sound which reminded me at the time of what I imagined a howler monkey would sound like, a 'hoo hoo hoo' noise, it was decidedly pre verbal and dealing directly with the danger at hand, surely an occasion when I used what you describe as 'lower' mind. Amazingly my two year old looked at me and started walking towards me, exactly the response I would have wanted if I had been thinking or talking, and the snake quietly slithered away.

 

I understand ego as being fixated on 'unconscious' mind (lower manas) that is driven by persona, and lower manas simultaneously as being fixated on ego. Ego ingratiatingly agrees with everything lower manas thinks regardless of reality. Information I received in a dream showed me that lower manas needs to raise itself through awareness of its contrived persona to upper manas, where it is no longer driven by unconscious persona and can open to the higher senses, and in this way upper manas can see through ego's 'madness', ignore her 'ego stroking' words, and bring her to ajna to be 'healed'. Perhaps this answers an earlier question I had, and suggests that ego needs to be transcended and transformed, but not killed.

This monkey example is cool. These kinds of moments sustains our modified functioning and brings this primal which is given, seems we dont learn it, were equiped in some pure knowledge needed to sustain our living.

Usually strong emotional things like that can also trigger awakening or partial awakening of some regions .

 

And about your dream it seems happening this way. I dont know this terminology, but seems that the first shot of awakening happends this way, you kind of cross the critical mass and kind of "see" behind the patterns and then, since there is this recognition of your self - of what is true all what isnt the true self has to be purified but it goes on its own from now on, taking of the fixations on different chakras , for some it lasts long, for others quicker.

With time you just experience these ego patterns less and less, and conflicted inner dialogues are gone too. It is preceived like dissolving of these pieces of personality and it can be called transcending too, than the energy is no longer involved into inner conflict and you also preceive this as a quality change in your being.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Kubba

[3bob]

if we also use the analogy of ego as a vehicle it obviously serves a certain purpose, but at some point it can go no further so if we get out of it and leave it parked on the side of the road does it still have someone to drive it around?  Nope, so in that way the vehicle "dies" without violence from the driver getting further attached to or stuck in a twisted-up mess of metal parts which could result if he trys to "kill" his vehicle and wrecks while he's still attached to and moving around in it. 

Edited August 10, 2015 by 3bob

[Karl]

if we also use the analogy of ego as a vehicle it obviously serves a certain purpose, but at some point it can go no further so if we get out of it and leave it parked on the side of the road does it still have someone to drive it around?  Nope, so in that way the vehicle "dies" without violence from the driver getting further attached to or stuck in a twisted-up mess of metal parts which could result if he trys to "kill" his vehicle and wrecks while he's still attached to and moving around in it. 

 

Not a good analogy though, because a vehicle is quite clearly a product of mans Ingenuity and an ego is mans ingenuity.

[3bob]

ego is a layer that lays claim while the master is away

[Karl]

ego is a layer that lays claim while the master is away

 

That's really just split thinking. You are you, there is no one else. Are you the master that is away, or the ego that has staked a claim ?

[Bindi]

Thanks dawei, like magic

[Apech]

What happened - where are we? (bewildered)

[Bindi]

What happened - where are we? (bewildered)

I was bewildered for a moment, but I liked it. Off topic. May be deleted

[Apech]

I was bewildered for a moment, but I liked it. Off topic. May be deleted

 

Ah!  Please do.

[soaring crane]

What happened - where are we? (bewildered)

 

action/reaction :-)

[Bindi]

"Reducing the ego is not easy. You will suffer many setbacks. You often have to overcome cultural conditioning and education. You may come into situations or come into conflict with people that bring out the worst in you. In our society which runs on greed, you have to overcome a barrage of negative stimuli incessantly encouraging you to inflate your ego. The trouble is that the ego can become so much part of you that it becomes invisible to you and feels like a "natural" part of you. The worst thing that can happen to you is to accept it as a "natural" part of you, for then it will control your actions. The ego is a tricky customer, for it manipulates you in all kinds of innocent guises. Just don't let anyone persuade you that the ego is anything else but the ego. Or that it is vital. The activities for which an ego is essential are those activities you should avoid. No matter how many setbacks you suffer, stay stubbornly opposed to it. Stay committed to getting rid of it. Don't give up. Commitment is everything."

 

http://www.taoism.net/theway/ego.htm

[Bindi]

"The reward for eliminating the ego is tremendous. It has been given many names: Enlightenment, Bodhi, Satori, Nirvana, Heaven. The reward is peace and equanimity, and tremendous spiritual power.

 

Yet the lure of reward carries its own dangers. If you should for one moment work to reduce your ego for the sake of personal reward, you will pervert everything you have set out to do, for you will then be serving none other than the very ego you are supposed to destroy. You will have fallen for the most cunning disguise of the ego - that of a permanent "soul" which you have to serve so that it can get all kinds of "spiritual" rewards, like an eternal life in heaven.

 

Many who "dedicate their lives" to truth or a cause or religion in fact work for their own rewards. You recognize them easily by their inflated egos, and their ignorance of their own self-righteousness, arrogance and vanity."

 

http://www.taoism.net/theway/ego.htm

[3bob]

that last post does not seem to recognize the need for the many types of and also purpose of great temptations and "rewards", for without going through those the tests are not taken, passed or even appreciated... btw the Self is eternal and permanent but it is not what we may "think" about it including being an eternal and permanent variation of our ego or even the human being we know ourselves as...  also this idea of destroying the ego keeps popping up - the ego dies but is not destroyed per one saying to themselves, "I'm going to destroy my ego" - for when energy and identification is withdrawn from it in a dharmic way (after it has served its purpose) then it no can longer hold sway or stay in force and dissolves before the light of Spirit and Truth, or before the real Master and Being-ness.

 

Another analogy that might be of some use along these lines (?) is that a star does not belittle or deny the rays of light it emits, nor a fire the sparks and warmth it radiates - for a ray of light is part of the nature of a star and a spark is part of the nature of fire. 

 

Om

[Bindi]

I personally have favoured the term ‘ego transcendence’ throughout, not ‘destroy’. I agree with this sentence “When energy and identification is withdrawn from it in a dharmic way (after it has served its purpose) then it can no longer hold sway or stay in force”, but I don’t think it dissolves, I think it must be transformed.

I think this specifically because I am equating ego with a minor chakra, Makara, at Ajna level. I equate what the author below refers to as ‘Cosmic Mind’ with Upper Manas, another minor chakra also at Ajna level.

 

To my understanding, Ajna orchestrates the transformation of both of these minor chakras.

 

The challenge of the Ajna chakra is to learn how to see beyond the five body senses by trumping the Ego with Cosmic Mind

http://collectivelyconscious.net/articles/kundalini-rising-a-comprehensive-guide-to-the-7-chakras/

 

As awareness or consciousness is raised up to Makara (what I am referring to as ego), this chakra must transform, but still be present within the subtle body.

 

Reaching the makara point results in self-mastery which means all aspects of personality, ego and mind are subdued in service to a higher Reality. This is sometimes called self-transcendence.

http://www.spiritsong.org/unit6-9.htm

[3bob]

the eye of the heart sees deeper than the eye of the mind,

[3bob]

Spirit sees ego plain as day, ego will never see or know Spirit, take an analogy if you will of ego being 2d and Spirit being 3d - thus and for instance ego will never become 3d - it may become the best of 2d in this little example but that's it.

[Bindi]

the eye of the heart sees deeper than the eye of the mind,

 

To my understanding the heart and the mind are subtly joined through the connection of the minor chakras on each side of the heart to the minor chakras at ajna level. This picture largely explains it. 

 

In this perspective, heart is intimately related to mind.

 

Edited August 23, 2015 by Bindi

[3bob]

Bindi,

 

I'm not qualified on that material and I hope you are working with a lineage operated by a Sat Guru for guidance along those lines...?

 

But I do like to relate to and discuss spiritual principles and some inspirational details that various realized Beings have shared with us.  Anyway, what I meant by the eye of the mind is that it is like a very powerful telescope and or micro-scope, thus an integral and wonderful tool but it is not the Self within "the small lotus of the heart" * which {is} deeper than the mind can see.

 

*per the Chandogya Upanishad, Part Eight, Chapter I,  Brahman in the Heart:

 

"1. Om. There is in this city of Brahman an abode, the small lotus of the heart; within it is a small akasa. Now what exists within that small akasa, that is to be sought after, that is what one should desire to understand.

 

3. If they should say to him: "Now, with regard to the abode, the small lotus, in this city of Brahman and the small akasa within it—what is there in it that is to be sought after and what is there that one should desire to understand?" Then he (the teacher) should say: "As far as, verily, this great akasa extends, so far extends the akasa within the heart. Both heaven and earth are contained within it, both fire and air, both sun and moon, both lightning and stars; and whatever belongs to him (i.e. the embodied creature) in this world and whatever does not, all that is contained within it (i.e. the akasa in the heart)."

Edited August 17, 2015 by 3bob

[Jeff]

It should be understood that what 3bob describes above is not the Heart Chakra. The small lotus" is also known as the "inner heart" (also sometimes called the 8th chakra in some traditions).

 

Best wishes.

[3bob]

It should be understood that the Chandogya Upanishad makes said description.  (while I only made a short pre-comment related to same while also suggesting one follow a lineage operated by Sat Guru for guidance along these lines - being that a public internet forum is not imo the place for certain critical details, thus I'd say in general that internet exchanges here should used to point towards various well recognized texts and teachers that are qualified to give help per their lineage and system or school regarding said material. 

[Spotless]

Imagine the difficulty of being in the present.

It is not a difficulty on the one hand and it is on the other.

 

Settling into no future, no past - no inertia.

 

The sense of self is gone in the old sense yet one can have self doubt - (but it falls on no worry) - it is just that the old sense of doing is gone yet the alternate is not established - because in a sense their is no new alternate - the "new alternate" is being with what the universe presents which now includes being with yourself which is the universe.

 

Acclimating to the bigness of this is almost overwhelming - but the old crutch of fear is gone.

 

You can feel the jitters of the populace - as they tilt off to fear.

 

We do not get rid of the ego - the structures upon which it exhibits - the patterns upon which we reflexively chew reality - identifications, futures, pasts, culture, will, our inherent animal patterns - this is the ego - it is the matrix from which the many we's come to accomplish the task of the helmsman - but contrary to their various opinions - they are never at the helm.

 

Awakening comes to our door in many colors - the portal is open in any moment.

 

It requires the noise to stop.

 

This can happen from sheer exhaustion of the fantasy of control.

 

It can happen in the pause of a tragedy.

 

It can happen in the meditation of meditation and the ceasing within.

 

Life brings to us cultivation - and it may find in us self effort and study - Whether it appears to happen by and by or from "our work" it presents us with the elixir time and again for dropping / obliteration of the charade.

 

In a moment the shell is gone and the great weight of it - a shell of positions and fear and well thought out willing and angst and certainty.

 

Into a world in which you know nothing - and the entire all is what "you" always were. You have all along been happening to yourself.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Spotless

[Bindi]

I’ve been thinking about ego in relation to a dream I had decades ago, of a large vine growing on a pergola like structure. In the dream, I at first unhooked the vine’s tendrils from the roof of the structure, and when I had done this the structure started to lean and fall but I pushed it upright again. I take the tendrils to be the first emotional hijacker – (for me fear), and the structure to be ego, which was loosened slightly but which I quickly reinstated.

I then unwound the vine’s branches from the structure, which I see as again loosening more emotional hijackers, again only to a certain level, and the structure again started to lean, and I again pushed it upright. So my ego structure was again loosened, but not enough, and quickly reinstated.

Finally I came to the trunk of the vine, and it had grown up thick and entwined with the central supporting post of the structure. It was impossible to really see where the vine trunk ended and the structure started, they were so completely merged. I understand this to be my ego structure so closely entwined with my emotional hijackers such as desire and anger, and my persona, and other ways of being that I identify as ‘myself’, that it becomes almost impossible to sort out what is ego structure and what is self. In the dream I tried to prise the trunk and the structure apart, and I managed to the extent that the structure did start to lean and fall, but this time I didn’t try to push the structure back up, and as it fell the weight of the structure falling ripped apart the structure from the trunk of the vine. Then everything fell down, the structure and the vine, both disappeared, and in its place there was a fresh young vine growing, and in this moment in the dream I realised that the structure had never supported the vine, the vine had always supported the structure.

So those deepest self identifications with ego were separated out from the ego structure, and ego finally wasn’t reinstated, and in the dream I was able to see that ego only existed in its relation to my emotional hijackers and persona and ‘self’, and once sufficiently separated the ego structure became unnecessary, as did my emotional hijackers, my persona, and other self identifications, leaving the fresh young vine which I associate with my ‘true Self’ free to grow unhindered, and with no need to reinstate ego.

Thinking about this dream has brought me to think that there may be no actual ego battle, but instead for me a long series of loosenings and resolutions and disengagements with the ego structure on my path, and one day a last disengagement that brings the whole structure tumbling down, and the right frame of mind to just let the ego structure keep falling in that moment.

[manitou]

One way of looking at ego, is that it's the seeming separation between you and I.  In essence, life is All One, and we are part of that All One-ness of life.  It occurs to me that, in my view, the human ego can be represented by a heart monitor chart.  The communal, all of us, is represented below the line which shows the beats of the heart.  The spikes of the chart are all of us, with our individual egos.  We (the spikes) look at each other and think we're separate.  But we're all part of the whole, and the only reason we can even speak to each other intelligently is because we are all of the same frequency, we are all One.

 

As to diminishing ego, a very effective method is to list your resentments and the people you dislike.  Then, undefensively, look for the part you played in the scuffle.  It's never totally one-sided.  Once you discover your part in the situation, make amends for the part you played.  It doesn't matter what the other person says, or whether they accept your apology.  (Can you hear your own ego screaming NO! as you read this?)  It is by doing these humbling actions that the ego gets tamed.

 

How your apology or amend is received is not your business.  It's only important that you do it; after all, it's your inner self that you are preparing for the light to come in.