split from "sometimes I feel that" thread

[Aetherous]

No, not "all people involved in business" -- all people. "People involved in business" is EVERYONE except for those who subsist entirely on the state's dole. This divisive perspective is a significant part of the problem, the idea that "people involved in business" are some other group of people who are greedy bastards responsible for society's ills.

 

Okay it should have been stated, "People who run businesses" instead of people "involved in" business. That is not everyone, and yes they are a separate group from the rest, who for instance, work for businesses.

 

I thought that was clear already...

 

These people who run businesses are in general the greedy bastards responsible for society's ills. Yes. That's why it's so unheard of to see the story of the CEO who slashed his pay to an equal amount as his employees, and raised their base salary to 70k. To the common businessman, that's unthinkable or laughable. In reality, if it weren't for his money going toward lawsuits, that guy and his company would be doing fine. He is one of the rare people involved in making money who puts virtue ahead of profits.

 

begins with individuals.

 

You and me.

 

It is curious that people speak in lofty terms about cultivation and ending suffering and enlightenment and immortality and such, and debate the higher meanings of ancient scriptures and sutras and Taoist canon ad nauseam, but then so often throw up their hands in defeat & despair when it comes to applying those very principles.

 

Whatever happened to "be the change that you wish to see in the world?"

 

Really not sure what you're getting at here.

 

But perhaps you can reflect upon whether free market capitalism is in line with virtue and the spiritual path, as well as ending the suffering of others, when our current system basically operates like a free market already...and yet, 1 in 3 children are living in poverty in America. Many don't know where their next meal is coming from...lets just make up a random number of 1 million, which is probably accurate. 1 million kids, starving under your political philosophy. It would be worse if fully implemented.

 

Taking away minimum wage, as you wish would happen, these families are even more poor...in truth, to the point where kids are dying of malnutrition and starvation. In America.

 

Is this conducive to their spiritual growth? Does it end suffering for them? Are you virtuous by insisting upon a philosophy which results in this? Is coercing greedy people into doing the right thing really worse than this result?

[thelerner]

The market takes care of itself. There will always be cheats, but they don't have the monopoly .. [*me- in your golden age of pure capitalism pre 1900 there were very powerful monopolies and some did dirty murderous things they couldn't get away with now]

 

Bad actors can't stay in the market without state blessing.  [*me- Yes they can]

 

Most of us just want to get along and serve each other, we like to be appreciated as good actors in the market. By being a good actor we build a reputation and keep business flowing to our doors, bad actors tend to collapse without state largesse. 

[*me- seems overly optimistic.  Many bad actors are knocked out immediately because of health and safety regulations not created pre-1900s.   Imo you can't screw everyone but you can screw one part of the equation, ie treat employees like crap and people will buy your low cost product Or create a crappy product, market it well (including bald faced lies) and people will buy it in groves, like so many drinks that are marketed as healthy but mostly sugar.  The third leg is both types can be shitty environmental wise]

 

These people who run businesses are in general the greedy bastards responsible for society's ills.  [*me- probably no greedier or bastardly then the rest of us]

 

 

That's why it's so unheard of to see the story of the CEO who slashed his pay to an equal amount as his employees, and raised their base salary to 70k. To the common businessman, that's unthinkable or laughable. In reality,..  [*me-in reality this would put most companies out of business quickly.  You can pay employees adequately without giving them equal pay to CEO.]

Edited August 7, 2015 by thelerner

[Karl]

 

There were also governments and the political motive pre 1900. I've got many stories about these people, but they were all politically connected.

 

Just because you judge a product as bad because it's full of sugar does not mean it isn't desired. Business provides what people want, if they don't want then they don't have to buy and the company ceases to trade.

 

If a company treats its employees like crap, then they aren't forced to stay with the company. The company develops a reputation for poor treatment and then only gets poor quality workers or none at all. If the company harms workers then the law takes care of that.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Karl

[thelerner]

 

If a company treats its employees like crap, then they aren't forced to stay with the company. The company develops a reputation for poor treatment and then only gets poor quality workers or none at all. If the company harms workers then the law takes care of that.

In theory no, in reality, there are only so many job openings and people have many debts and limited options; thus people stay with bad firms.   Economic realities are the force.  Good people are taken advantage of by bad companies because they have little choice.  Note I don't mean to paint all or most businesses as bad.  But enough bad ones exist to make life miserable for millions. 

 

I'll give you that business provide what people want, but not that they provide what the employees want or need.  There is a problem in America of the working poor.  For example, we have giant companies like Walmart which has thousands of employees that need food stamps.  Thankfully that may be changing soon, but its been a bad decade for millions of workers here.

 

I don't think there is an easy solution.  Such ideas as the $15 an hour will have unintended consequences of lowering employment and putting some places out of business.  Still it'll increase the living standards of millions.  Even save the government the billions it spends subsidizing low paid workers.   

 

Solutions hard, and idolizing the 'Pure' Capitalism as perfect seems to me almost as foolish as those who idolize 'Pure' <never quite found> Communism as perfect.  Real life is messy, resources and opportunities limited.  You see negatives like greed and poverty injustice magically cured by unfettered capitalism.   As do diehard Communists.   I think you're closer to the truth, but belief in such an absolute is misplaced.  

[Karl]

In theory no, in reality, there are only so many job openings and people have many debts and limited options; thus people stay with bad firms. Economic realities are the force. Good people are taken advantage of by bad companies because they have little choice. Note I don't mean to paint all or most businesses as bad. But enough bad ones exist to make life miserable for millions.

 

I'll give you that business provide what people want, but not that they provide what the employees want or need. There is a problem in America of the working poor. For example, we have giant companies like Walmart which has thousands of employees that need food stamps. Thankfully that may be changing soon, but its been a bad decade for millions of workers here.

 

I don't think there is an easy solution. Such ideas as the $15 an hour will have unintended consequences of lowering employment and putting some places out of business. Still it'll increase the living standards of millions. Even save the government the billions it spends subsidizing low paid workers.

 

Solutions hard, and idolizing the 'Pure' Capitalism as perfect seems to me almost as foolish as those who idolize 'Pure' Communism as perfect. Real life is messy, resources and opportunities limited. You see negatives like greed and poverty injustice magically cured by unfettered capitalism. As do diehard Communists. I think you're closer to the truth, but belief in such an absolute is misplaced.

Businesses simply provide employment opportunities. Employees are selling their labour to the highest bidder. There are no limits on the number of job opportunities except in our centrally managed economy where companies and individuals can use the force of government to prevent the expansion of competition. We are standing in a bucket and trying to lift it at the same time. Job opportunities are only limited because of this and for no other reason. If you allow the foxes to govern the chicken coup then you can be sure there will be fewer chickens than there otherwise would be.

 

The same thing applies to 'the working poor'. Why does it now cost 10 times median pay to buy a home than it did in 1950? Why are the poor paying the cost of carbon taxes, subsidies for farmers to grow corn for gasoline, regulations that make cars expensive to buy and require debt. Where did all the good jobs go ? Why does state education suck ? Why are black people now many times more likely to be the product of one parent/ no parent families ? The list is endless. We have state/corporate repression of the population.

 

The answer is the same answer that China and Russia decided upon. They got the state partly out of the way and look what happened. The more the state gets out the way the greater the expansion of wealth. It's quite simple.

 

The living wage is a huge mistake. It is effectively forced unemployment. The higher it is, the greater the numbers who will become idle, the fewer companies who will set up to provide low wage jobs. There will be less and less for those at the bottom and ever more for those at the top. This is well known. It's not even worthy of an argument. Supply and demand is accepted as a real law. If the price point is moved above that which is productive, then all those who's production isn't valued at that level will be thrown on the scrap heap.

 

Capitalism isn't communism, that was a clever Marxian bate and switch. Capital is just the time deferred preference for consumption. This is the mechanism by which we save a portion of our productive effort in order that it is available for other productive uses. Without it we would not survive.

 

The free market isn't an ideology, it's two people producing and trading on a voluntary basis. It's completely natural. It is the prevention of this trade which is unnatural. There exists such a thing as rational selfishness. Man is a rational creature even if he strays from time to time. It is religion and states that have founded the ideology of sacrifice, that man is a dirty, unworthy creature in need of correction. That selfishness is bad and one should submit to a higher authority-and we know just who they have in mind to be that higher authority.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Karl

[Aetherous]

[thelerner]

I tend to believe man is a rationalizing animal.  And while theory sounds good, in real life it's.. less so.  This can be rationalized as Pure Capitalism though 'the best' no longer exists anywhere because ..?.. it was too good and pure to live.

 

Beyond theory, in our Reality the countries that seem to be providing the best life style in terms of education, freedom, health, longevity, and general prosperity are the Northern European countries like Sweden, Norway, Switzerland.  Living there is a bit like hitting a lottery.  They have, I believe hit a sweet spot.  Not perfect but better then the U.S in most metrics.  In the U.S we are pretty lucky, but if you live here and roll a 4 or lower on a 20 sided die, you're living a shorter, nastier, less healthy, impoverished (compared to the middle) kind of life. 

 

Whereas simple theory cannot adequately show this, a book like 'Nickel and Dimed, On Not Getting By in America' (http://www.amazon.com/Nickel-Dimed-Not-Getting-America/dp/0312626681) is a good  read to get knowledge and empathy for the millions of working poor who are trapped.  

 

In the 18 and 19th century there were legal indentured servants, today there are millions of  almost 'indentured servants' trapped by debts.  They bear some, even most of the responsibility but there's also system in place that like a greased slide thats real easy to fall into.  Even if you have 10's of thousand of dollars put away,  millions, probably 10's of millions are an unlucky accident or illness away from it. 

 

 

Karl, you're bringing out the leftist in me.  I need a radical, someone like InnerSoundQiGong to come in so I can swing back right.  I've got a perfect line I'm waiting to use.. 'While fascism is out of fashion I ..'

Edited August 8, 2015 by thelerner

[Karl]

I tend to believe man is a rationalizing animal.  And while theory sounds good, in real life it's.. less so.  This can be rationalized as Pure Capitalism though 'the best' no longer exists anywhere because ..?.. it was too good and pure to live.

 

Beyond theory, in our Reality the countries that seem to be providing the best life style in terms of education, freedom, health, longevity, and general prosperity are the Northern European countries like Sweden, Norway, Switzerland.  Living there is a bit like hitting a lottery.  They have, I believe hit a sweet spot.  Not perfect but better then the U.S in most metrics.  In the U.S we are pretty lucky, but if you live here and roll a 4 or lower on a 20 sided die, you're living a shorter, nastier, less healthy, impoverished (compared to the middle) kind of life. 

 

Whereas simple theory cannot adequately show this, a book like 'Nickel and Dimed, On Not Getting By in America' (http://www.amazon.com/Nickel-Dimed-Not-Getting-America/dp/0312626681) is a good  read to get knowledge and empathy for the millions of working poor who are trapped.  

 

In the 18 and 19th century there were legal indentured servants, today there are millions of  almost 'indentured servants' trapped by debts.  They bear some, even most of the responsibility but there's also system in place that like a greased slide thats real easy to fall into.  Even if you have 10's of thousand of dollars put away,  millions, probably 10's of millions are an unlucky accident or illness away from it. 

 

 

Karl, you're bringing out the leftist in me.  I need a radical, someone like InnerSoundQiGong to come in so I can swing back right.  I've got a perfect line I'm waiting to use.. 'While fascism is out of fashion I ..'

 

Well I think we are pretty lost now if your suggesting Nickel and dimed as a work of any significance. It's this patronising treatment of individuals that I find sickening. It isn't empathy, it's zoological interest that sell books, articles, interviews and makes champagne socialists wealthy. Those people who get rich by feeding the poor and their actions are responsible for keeping individuals from getting up off their knees in the first place. Then they use the poor to sell the poisonous ideology of collectivism from their comfortable little empires. They are nought but vampires that suck the blood of the poor and keep them helpless and dependent.

 

I have a very strong reaction having been one of those working poor. It's not minimum wages and handouts that are needed but a healthy economy with job/entrepreneurial opportunities.

[thelerner]

Well I think we are pretty lost now if your suggesting Nickel and dimed as a work of any significance. It's this patronising treatment of individuals that I find sickening. It isn't empathy, it's zoological interest that sell books, articles, interviews and makes champagne socialists wealthy. Those people who get rich by feeding the poor and their actions are responsible for keeping individuals from getting up off their knees in the first place. Then they use the poor to sell the poisonous ideology of collectivism from their comfortable little empires. They are nought but vampires that suck the blood of the poor and keep them helpless and dependent.

 

I have a very strong reaction having been one of those working poor. It's not minimum wages and handouts that are needed but a healthy economy with job/entrepreneurial opportunities.

Ah, the ones who want to improve the lives of the working poor are the evil vampires and those who'd cut social welfare programs and lower taxes on the rich (who've done incredibly well during the recovery) are the good guys?  I'm not saying they're the bad guys, thats not an accurate way to put economic ideas,  but clearly the solution of stripping resources to the poor whose income has mostly stagnated (or up 10 or 14% in the past 10 years) and give tax breaks to those who's networth has doubled or tripled in that time,  seems backwards.  Unless you're living in an Ayn Rand novel.

 

I think the conspiracy theory that Leftist are doing it in order to control the masses is crap sold by Faux news and ditto heads.  The desire to help people at the bottom and middle class, provide opportunity and stronger social net is a noble one.   The U.S is rich enough to do it.   You don't have to fall into over regulation or even European style socialism to achieve it.  There is a sweet spot and we're not hitting it. 

 

I don't buy the 'when the economy is healthy enough' problems will be solved.  I think its a myth.   The U.S economy has been in a slow but steady increase for the past 5 1/2 years.  Yet we are still a nation that has been seeing an increasing separation between have's and have nots for the past 2 decades.  It dangerous. 

 

If we can reduce regulations and government without compromising safety that'll be part of the solution.  Likewise reducing military spending from a level which is greater then the next 20 countries combined will also free up countless billions that can be used to improve general welfare.   Modern progressive societies (except the U.S) have generally come up with a health care as a basic human right.  Moving to a single health payer system could move us from the country that spends more then any other on health care and has results lower then majority of first world countries to one saving billions and having much better results.

 

There are probably billions that can be diverted to provide better lifes.

 

Matter of fact in most metrics we're lower then other first world countries.  Mostly because our poor (and middle class) are so much closer to third world standards.  (Our mean/average is skewed by having so many super rich)   We probably need to work both angles to improve the situation.  Increasing 'Capitalist' measures while improving education and opportunities and basic living conditions for the poor and middle class.

Edited August 9, 2015 by thelerner

[Brian]

I fully realize that most Bums will not look beyond the name of the organization which complied this analysis and actually read it, and I also realize that the analysis should not be taken sans grano salis (none ever should be) but I offer this for consideration:

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2014/09/the-war-on-poverty-after-50-years

[Karl]

I fully realize that most Bums will not look beyond the name of the organization which complied this analysis and actually read it, and I also realize that the analysis should not be taken sans grano salis (none ever should be) but I offer this for consideration:http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2014/09/the-war-on-poverty-after-50-years

 

 

Before you posted I was about to say that the war on poverty has been going on for at least 50 years and, except for the natural tendency for capitalism to increase overall wealth, the war on poverty has been an abject failure. Of course that was entirely predictable anyway.

 

Another similar misguided ideology was to make homes affordable for all. The result of that is that prices of median homes to median incomes are now 10 times higher than when the state started interfering.

 

Then there is the war on terror-more of it, ever more costly to contain, ever less freedom for the population. Then the war on drugs-same. No child left behind-more than ever. The list of costly failures that consume ever more production for an ever declining condition is staggering. Will anyone ever stand up and say the King is naked.

[Karl]

Ah, the ones who want to improve the lives of the working poor are the evil vampires and those who'd cut social welfare programs and lower taxes on the rich (who've done incredibly well during the recovery) are the good guys?  I'm not saying they're the bad guys, thats not an accurate way to put economic ideas,  but clearly the solution of stripping resources to the poor whose income has mostly stagnated (or up 10 or 14% in the past 10 years) and give tax breaks to those who's networth has doubled or tripled in that time,  seems backwards.  Unless you're living in an Ayn Rand novel.

 

I think the conspiracy theory that Leftist are doing it in order to control the masses is crap sold by Faux news and ditto heads.  The desire to help people at the bottom and middle class, provide opportunity and stronger social net is a noble one.   The U.S is rich enough to do it.   You don't have to fall into over regulation or even European style socialism to achieve it.  There is a sweet spot and we're not hitting it. 

 

I don't buy the 'when the economy is healthy enough' problems will be solved.  I think its a myth.   The U.S economy has been in a slow but steady increase for the past 5 1/2 years.  Yet we are still a nation that has been seeing an increasing separation between have's and have nots for the past 2 decades.  It dangerous. 

 

If we can reduce regulations and government without compromising safety that'll be part of the solution.  Likewise reducing military spending from a level which is greater then the next 20 countries combined will also free up countless billions that can be used to improve general welfare.   Modern progressive societies (except the U.S) have generally come up with a health care as a basic human right.  Moving to a single health payer system could move us from the country that spends more then any other on health care and has results lower then majority of first world countries to one saving billions and having much better results.

 

There are probably billions that can be diverted to provide better lifes.

 

Matter of fact in most metrics we're lower then other first world countries.  Mostly because our poor (and middle class) are so much closer to third world standards.  (Our mean/average is skewed by having so many super rich)   We probably need to work both angles to improve the situation.  Increasing 'Capitalist' measures while improving education and opportunities and basic living conditions for the poor and middle class.

 

Everyone wants to improve the lives of everyone unless the are psychopathic maniacs. However, there is a pay off to any action, for many it's just a good feeling, declining crime, less bums on the street- but for others it's for power, prestige and privilege. There is no, one reason, why anyone makes a transaction, but there are always pay offs for doing so.

 

How do you make everyone have generally increasing standards of living- by free market capitalism with equal opportunity to succeed or fail. That's why even the poorest today have more than the poorest of 100 years ago. However, it must be accepted there will always be those who are poorer than others, relative poverty will not go away. It's completely natural as long as opportunity exists in a non interventionist culture, then those who provide the most value will be the wealthiest and the opportunity will always exist for anyone to be in that position. The disparity between rich and poor reduces in a non interventionist culture as competition reduces profit automatically.

 

Of course you won't agree with that, but then, few do.

[zerostao]

idealistically i agree with karl, but in practice,,it seems to be wishful thinking, a fantasy

 

[Karl]

idealistically i agree with karl, but in practice,,it seems to be wishful thinking, a fantasy

 

That's somewhat of a positive outcome :-)

 

Though I expect the state bullies to be along shortly to shut down illegal, underage lemonade salesman with no licenses and trading permits. Probably not even submitting tax records. Capitalist swine.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Karl

[zerostao]

That's somewhat of a positive outcome :-)

 

Though I expect the state bullies to be along shortly to shut down illegal, underage lemonade salesman with no licenses and trading permits. Probably not even submitting tax records. Capitalist swine.

this was taken in rural kentucky

we have 12 year olds selling rifles at the public diner with a uniformed cop sitting at the next table eating a chili dog with mustard and onion. however also in kentucky we always have the free enterprising coal barons who left unchecked or while even in check will kill an entire small town to break off the top of a mountain to get a fat seam of coal. poisoning the water, no worries they can kill a fresh water stream for 100's of years and pay a fifty thousand dollar fine. 

so,

and to clarify when i say kill a small town, i dont mean figuratively, allegorically, or symbolically, 

i mean regulated or not they actually kill folks if they have to to get to the coal, directly

and indirectly by poisoning the air and water.

so,

i am on the side of regulation karl

as much as idealistically, i wish we lived in a world where folks were responsible and would act so,

facts seem to bear out that capitalist swine only understands greed in some instances.

[Karl]

this was taken in rural kentucky

we have 12 year olds selling rifles at the public diner with a uniformed cop sitting at the next table eating a chili dog with mustard and onion. however also in kentucky we always have the free enterprising coal barons who left unchecked or while even in check will kill an entire small town to break off the top of a mountain to get a fat seam of coal. poisoning the water, no worries they can kill a fresh water stream for 100's of years and pay a fifty thousand dollar fine. 

so,

and to clarify when i say kill a small town, i dont mean figuratively, allegorically, or symbolically, 

i mean regulated or not they actually kill folks if they have to to get to the coal, directly

and indirectly by poisoning the air and water.

so,

i am on the side of regulation karl

as much as idealistically, i wish we lived in a world where folks were responsible and would act so,

facts seem to bear out that capitalist swine only understands greed in some instances.

 

The reason they can do that is because the state has privileged business over property rights. The result is a law which defends that kind of behaviour over the rights of others. Your problem is with the Government and the state who should have been protecting the property rights of the people.

 

I'm well aware of the problem. Luckily you seem to have a decent LEO, but there are plenty of stories of lemonade stalls being shut down by over zealous police.

[zerostao]

The reason they can do that is because the state has privileged business over property rights. The result is a law which defends that kind of behaviour over the rights of others. Your problem is with the Government and the state who should have been protecting the property rights of the people. I'm well aware of the problem. Luckily you seem to have a decent LEO, but there are plenty of stories of lemonade stalls being shut down by over zealous police.

you envision a state that will not privilege business interests over regular citizens?

i am with you there brother. it also sounds rather marxist.

i still call fantasy on that.

and if we remove state entirely then the barons will hire an army to kill off any citizens that live on coal land.

it isnt like they havnt already done that very thing numerous times with us presidential/senate/governor/ approval.

[Aetherous]

That's why even the poorest today have more than the poorest of 100 years ago. 

 

No, the reason why that is, is because of everything the Libertarian is opposed to: government hand outs, and minimum wage. Take away those things and the poorest today would have less than the poorest of 50 (since the war on poverty began), or 100 years ago...in fact, considering how our society works, it'd be so bad for those people, that to take away those things is considered inhumane and illegal.

[Karl]

you envision a state that will not privilege business interests over regular citizens?

i am with you there brother. it also sounds rather marxist.

i still call fantasy on that.

and if we remove state entirely then the barons will hire an army to kill off any citizens that live on coal land.

it isnt like they havnt already done that very thing numerous times with us presidential/senate/governor/ approval.

It's private property rights and the proper application of law.

 

Remove the state does not mean removal of law or the right to defence. At present the state happily supports businesses riding roughshod over property owners and will cite something equivalent as 'for the common good' (which sounds very familiar).

 

If your interested in this stuff it's worth reading Rothbards-for a new Liberty the libertarian manifesto to cover all the usual angles (policing, law, defence, roads etc ).

 

Links to free copy:

https://mises.org/sites/default/files/For%20a%20New%20Liberty%20The%20Libertarian%20Manifesto_3.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad

Edited August 9, 2015 by Karl

[Brian]

Okay it should have been stated, "People who run businesses" instead of people "involved in" business. That is not everyone, and yes they are a separate group from the rest, who for instance, work for businesses.

 

I thought that was clear already...

 

These people who run businesses are in general the greedy bastards responsible for society's ills. Yes. That's why it's so unheard of to see the story of the CEO who slashed his pay to an equal amount as his employees, and raised their base salary to 70k. To the common businessman, that's unthinkable or laughable. In reality, if it weren't for his money going toward lawsuits, that guy and his company would be doing fine. He is one of the rare people involved in making money who puts virtue ahead of profits.

 

 

Really not sure what you're getting at here.

 

But perhaps you can reflect upon whether free market capitalism is in line with virtue and the spiritual path, as well as ending the suffering of others, when our current system basically operates like a free market already...and yet, 1 in 3 children are living in poverty in America. Many don't know where their next meal is coming from...lets just make up a random number of 1 million, which is probably accurate. 1 million kids, starving under your political philosophy. It would be worse if fully implemented.

 

Taking away minimum wage, as you wish would happen, these families are even more poor...in truth, to the point where kids are dying of malnutrition and starvation. In America.

 

Is this conducive to their spiritual growth? Does it end suffering for them? Are you virtuous by insisting upon a philosophy which results in this? Is coercing greedy people into doing the right thing really worse than this result?

Sorry it took so long to respond -- I had evil capitalism to tend to.

 

I left the office (where I run a division with a multi-million dollar operating budget and several dozen employees (PT, FT, hourly, salaried, with benefits, without benefits, you name it) which clearly makes me a greedy bastard responsible for all the world's woes) in order to hurry to my hometown. Why, you might ask?

 

Well, because it was the 38^th Annual Sourwood Festival! A three-day street fair in downtown Black Mountain in celebration of the wonderful local sourwood honey, it draws about 30,000 people over the weekend and is populated by over 200 vendors. That's right -- evil, greedy bastards from all over the area who have the temerity to call themselves artisans, craftsmen and merchants instead of properly identifying themselves as heartless oppressors of their fellow humans. These sub-human creatures drove for miles to set up booths from which they would trick passers-by into perusing or sampling (and perhaps -- aack! -- purchasing?!?) handmade local soaps and jewelry and birdhouses and ice-cream and free music and funnel cakes and... and... and... gosh! Oh, and honey. Some of these so-called "vendors" even brought their slaves to work in the hot sun hawking their wares -- like the members of the local high school marching band who sell BBQ from under a couple of big tents loaned by one of the town's funeral homes. The BBQ is donated by a local BBQ joint (another evil greedy bastard who probably doesn't give the workers their God-givengovernment-given rightsbenefits) and all benefits go to the band to help pay for uniforms and instruments and trips and such.

 

So, why was I in such a hurry to get there Friday evening? You see, after more than two decades as a public mental health social worker, my wife is fulfilling a bucket-list dream of being a shop owner. That's right -- she's a proprietor of a business, she actually runs a business!!! (Can you imagine such a heartless thing???) She buys stuff and sells it at a profit (hopefully) and she occasionally employs local townspeople to work part-time in her shop, too. Gack! Her shop, as fate would have it, is located inside the barricaded area (they either close the streets to allow guests to wander safely or they do it in order to establish clear fields of fire in case it is decided to gun them down -- I forget which...) and is actually right next to the stage where the Friday evening talent show is held. (Actually, that's not quite true -- between her shop and the parking lot where the stage is located is the booth run each year by a local ministry which enables inmates from the nearby women's prison to come and sell donated books as a fundraiser.) With the amount of traffic through the shop, she really couldn't run it alone. On the way in, though, I stopped at a neighborhood Chinese restaurant for some take-out.

 

While I love the street fair fare (if you follow me), my wife's medical condition makes it generally off-limits (and just plain bad for you) so I picked up some steamed rice and an order of steamed shrimp and snow peas for her. That place is run by a whole bunch of evil, greedy bastards who accidentally emigrated, legally, from The People's Paradise of China and who, apparently, are working hard to save enough money for the boat ride back, or whatever. Must be an expensive boat ride, though, because they have been here for years -- their now-teenaged kids work in the shop, too, and speak English fluently and with a Southern accent.

 

Anyhow, after the festival started winding down for the night, we went around the corner to The Town Pump for a beer. Another evil capitalistic establishment run by a nice young lady who clearly is responsible for many of the world's woes which cannot be hung directly around my wife's neck. This place hires several bartenders who work part-time and who therefore are cheated out of their Godgovernment-given rights as well. They seem blissfully unaware of how oppressed they are, though, and it is always a pleasant place to visit. The Pump had a guy that night who was trying to break a guitar for tips, though, and doing it loudly -- so we went to another evil capitalistic establishment across the street, instead, and had a cold draft IPA brewed by a local greedy business.

 

Saturday morning, we were back in the shop, watching all the poor unfortunate visitors being unwittingly oppressed by all the evil capitalists who tricked them into buying fresh bread and letting their kids ride the Ferris wheel and such.

 

Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

If your worn-out Marxist rhetoric wasn't so clichéd and predictable, I would demand an apology for what you are saying about my wife.

 

Oh! As to the thing about 1-in-3 children living in poverty, I would encourage you to (but have no expectation that you will) read that link I posted earlier. It thoroughly destroys that fallacy so I don't need to. I will point out that I have personal knowledge of where that 1-in-3 number comes from -- it is actually the number of children who report having gone to bed hungry. That's right -- the government sends agents into public elementary schools (like the ones my son attended) to survey children. One of the questions asked is whether the child has ever gone to bed hungry; if the kid recently was told he couldn't have one more cookie and glass of milk at bedtime, he might answer "yes" (sniffle) and would therefore be counted as not having enough to eat. That's not to say that there aren't children in America living in true poverty or living on the streets or not getting enough food -- of course there are! But the problem is significantly overstated by those who have a vested interest in increased redistribution and in growing the roles of government dependency.

 

BTW, the US federal minimum wage has been in existence sine 1938 and has been adjusted 28 times since then. Not counting the $22 trillion spent on the War Against Poverty through redistributive federal programs in the last 50 years, one would think three-quarters of a century of mandatory wage requirements would have solved the problem by now, if it were able to do so. Almost makes one wonder whether the stated objective is as it appears...

[zerostao]

chewing on this one ,,,,,,,,,will return

Edited August 10, 2015 by zerostao

[Aetherous]

Sorry it took so long to respond -- I had evil capitalism to tend to.

 

I left the office (where I run a division with a multi-million dollar operating budget and several dozen employees (PT, FT, hourly, salaried, with benefits, without benefits, you name it) which clearly makes me a greedy bastard responsible for all the world's woes) in order to hurry to my hometown. Why, you might ask?

 

Well, because it was the 38^th Annual Sourwood Festival! A three-day street fair in downtown Black Mountain in celebration of the wonderful local sourwood honey, it draws about 30,000 people over the weekend and is populated by over 200 vendors. That's right -- evil, greedy bastards from all over the area who have the temerity to call themselves artisans, craftsmen and merchants instead of properly identifying themselves as heartless oppressors of their fellow humans. These sub-human creatures drove for miles to set up booths from which they would trick passers-by into perusing or sampling (and perhaps -- aack! -- purchasing?!?) handmade local soaps and jewelry and birdhouses and ice-cream and free music and funnel cakes and... and... and... gosh! Oh, and honey. Some of these so-called "vendors" even brought their slaves to work in the hot sun hawking their wares -- like the members of the local high school marching band who sell BBQ from under a couple of big tents loaned by one of the town's funeral homes. The BBQ is donated by a local BBQ joint (another evil greedy bastard who probably doesn't give the workers their God-givengovernment-given rightsbenefits) and all benefits go to the band to help pay for uniforms and instruments and trips and such.

 

So, why was I in such a hurry to get there Friday evening? You see, after more than two decades as a public mental health social worker, my wife is fulfilling a bucket-list dream of being a shop owner. That's right -- she's a proprietor of a business, she actually runs a business!!! (Can you imagine such a heartless thing???) She buys stuff and sells it at a profit (hopefully) and she occasionally employs local townspeople to work part-time in her shop, too. Gack! Her shop, as fate would have it, is located inside the barricaded area (they either close the streets to allow guests to wander safely or they do it in order to establish clear fields of fire in case it is decided to gun them down -- I forget which...) and is actually right next to the stage where the Friday evening talent show is held. (Actually, that's not quite true -- between her shop and the parking lot where the stage is located is the booth run each year by a local ministry which enables inmates from the nearby women's prison to come and sell donated books as a fundraiser.) With the amount of traffic through the shop, she really couldn't run it alone. On the way in, though, I stopped at a neighborhood Chinese restaurant for some take-out.

 

While I love the street fair fare (if you follow me), my wife's medical condition makes it generally off-limits (and just plain bad for you) so I picked up some steamed rice and an order of steamed shrimp and snow peas for her. That place is run by a whole bunch of evil, greedy bastards who accidentally emigrated, legally, from The People's Paradise of China and who, apparently, are working hard to save enough money for the boat ride back, or whatever. Must be an expensive boat ride, though, because they have been here for years -- their now-teenaged kids work in the shop, too, and speak English fluently and with a Southern accent.

 

Anyhow, after the festival started winding down for the night, we went around the corner to The Town Pump for a beer. Another evil capitalistic establishment run by a nice young lady who clearly is responsible for many of the world's woes which cannot be hung directly around my wife's neck. This place hires several bartenders who work part-time and who therefore are cheated out of their Godgovernment-given rights as well. They seem blissfully unaware of how oppressed they are, though, and it is always a pleasant place to visit. The Pump had a guy that night who was trying to break a guitar for tips, though, and doing it loudly -- so we went to another evil capitalistic establishment across the street, instead, and had a cold draft IPA brewed by a local greedy business.

 

Saturday morning, we were back in the shop, watching all the poor unfortunate visitors being unwittingly oppressed by all the evil capitalists who tricked them into buying fresh bread and letting their kids ride the Ferris wheel and such.

 

Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

If your worn-out Marxist rhetoric wasn't so clichéd and predictable, I would demand an apology for what you are saying about my wife.

 

Oh! As to the thing about 1-in-3 children living in poverty, I would encourage you to (but have no expectation that you will) read that link I posted earlier. It thoroughly destroys that fallacy so I don't need to. I will point out that I have personal knowledge of where that 1-in-3 number comes from -- it is actually the number of children who report having gone to bed hungry. That's right -- the government sends agents into public elementary schools (like the ones my son attended) to survey children. One of the questions asked is whether the child has ever gone to bed hungry; if the kid recently was told he couldn't have one more cookie and glass of milk at bedtime, he might answer "yes" (sniffle) and would therefore be counted as not having enough to eat. That's not to say that there aren't children in America living in true poverty or living on the streets or not getting enough food -- of course there are! But the problem is significantly overstated by those who have a vested interest in increased redistribution and in growing the roles of government dependency.

 

BTW, the US federal minimum wage has been in existence sine 1938 and has been adjusted 28 times since then. Not counting the $22 trillion spent on the War Against Poverty through redistributive federal programs in the last 50 years, one would think three-quarters of a century of mandatory wage requirements would have solved the problem by now, if it were able to do so. Almost makes one wonder whether the stated objective is as it appears...

 

You're misinterpreting my point of view.

[Karl]

You're misinterpreting my point of view.

 

I think he pretty much nailed it.

[Aetherous]

I think he pretty much nailed it.

 

The ability to grasp what someone else is saying is a sign of intelligence.

 

Okay for one: I'm not opposed to capitalism, nor do I think running a business makes a person evil. Total misinterpretation of everything I've said.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

For further info, go back and reread my posts without the bias.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Aetherous

[Karl]

The ability to grasp what someone else is saying is a sign of intelligence.

 

Okay for one: I'm not opposed to capitalism, nor do I think running a business makes a person evil. Total misinterpretation of everything I've said.

For further info, go back and reread my posts without the bias.

Your negative agreements 'I'm not opposed to capitalism' or 'nor do I think running a business makes a person evil' pretty much caps it. There are no attempts at positivity. I'm not opposed to communism-as long as I never have to live under it. Those that like it-best wishes.

 

It was clear to me several posts ago that the description Brian has formed is quite correct. You aren't going to reconsider anyway, you are clearly Marxist and proud of it. Capitalism is fine as long as it's controlled by the state/people and production is shared out.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Karl