neidan for dummies?

[Daeluin]

Thank you all for responses.  I did not mean to start a fight.  If the somewhat haphazard way I asked the question contributed to the conflict, I am sorry.  I was and am just curious about where to start when one is trying to navigate the different manuals on neidan that exist. 

 

Nah it wasn't you. We just have particular flows through the changes when certain doors are opened. If nothing else this may have helped clarify some things and bring them closer to unity, which I think is something we all care about more than the rest.

[YiYinYiYang]

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Edited August 12, 2017 by YiYinYiYang

[Aetherous]

Thank you all for responses.  I did not mean to start a fight.  If the somewhat haphazard way I asked the question contributed to the conflict, I am sorry.  I was and am just curious about where to start when one is trying to navigate the different manuals on neidan that exist. 

 

In all honesty, it is very great advice to get affiliated with a school and teacher. Otherwise you can read the various translated texts, but their true meaning is indecipherable, or else contradictory. You can read people's opinions of them, or false teachers' ideas...but there will of course be a sense that the truth is missing. So that's the best place to start: a school and teacher...otherwise, it's not even starting. There are people who have been learning this stuff for 20 or more years, who haven't even started. Those who insist on not needing teachers...it's good to ask, what attainment do they have from learning and practicing on their own? Are they actually content with the level they're at? If so...they won't attain anything beyond that. Do you want to be like them?

 

Some people at this forum like learning from Wang Liping. Some people like learning from the Yu Xian Pai...I personally checked it out for about a month and found it to be worthwhile, and would attend an in person seminar! Perhaps some people go to China, or surrounding countries, and find a school or teacher of neidan. Who can tell you what the true way is? You have to find out by your own intuition and trail and error. The spiritual marketplace is full of con men.

 

Personally, when I saw the title "neidan for dummies" I immediately thought of the gold flower method from Kunlun. Not everyone will agree that Kunlun is a complete method of neidan practice...but it doesn't get easier than holding a hand mudra. No reading of incomprehensible texts required...truly, for dummies. Although the methods of Kunlun are from Daoism, it's hard to practice them and then understand Daoist texts...it's kind of its own thing...so you probably won't get what you're looking for by going that route, either.

 

But keep looking, and you'll find it.

[Daeluin]

But keep looking, and you'll find it.

 

Look without and even the internal will seek externally.

Look within and even the external will come to help guide you home.

[MooNiNite]

you dont need a teacher. it can help. but it cant always help.

 

The best books are to practice meditation. Also read teaching by great masters like bhodidharma

[Taoist Texts]

you dont need a teacher. it can help. but it cant always help.

 

 

now that's the voice of reason. But there is more to it. Zhong and Lu tell us that teachers are not the solution, they are the problem

 

"When you are impatient to find a teacher, you will not care whether the teacher is enlightened or not. Impressed by what the teacher claims he can offer and falling prey to his charisma, you believe that you have found a true immortal. Eventually you discover too late that the teacher is a fraud who is after fame and power. Being fooled and controlled by false teachers—this is the sixth obstacle."

[Aetherous]

The fact that you can be fooled into thinking false teachers are legitimate, doesn't by any means imply that a person can learn or practice neidan without a teacher.

[Taoist Texts]

The fact that you can be fooled into thinking false teachers are legitimate, doesn't by any means imply that a person can learn or practice neidan without a teacher.

Yes it does.

Who says that a person can NOT learn or practice neidan without a teacher?

The aforementioned false teachers out of their obvious self-interest, that's who.

Them being false means that it is a lie.

It being a lie means that the opposite is true.

Yes, you can!

Its simple logic really.

[YiYinYiYang]

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Edited August 12, 2017 by YiYinYiYang

[Aetherous]

Who says that a person can NOT learn or practice neidan without a teacher?

 

Pretty sure the guys you quoted were of that opinion.

[SonOfTheGods]

Read between the lines, as in all things.

[Taoist Texts]

Pretty sure the guys you quoted were of that opinion.

No they were not Eva Wong added to that misconception by inserting a funny paragraph not extant in the original. Here is what Zhong and Lu really say in conclusion of their lengthy conversation:

 

 

吕曰：“今日特蒙事师开说希夷大理、天地玄机。不止于耳目清明而精神秀媚。残躯有托终，不与粪壤同类。然而知之者未必能行，行之者未必能得。念以生死事大而时光迅速，虽知妙理，未得行持，终不成功，与不知无异，敢求指教交会之时，行持之法，如何下手，如何用功？”

Lu said: Today, you, the merciful teacher openly explained to me the Great Principle of the Subtle Unseen, the Dark Spring of Heaven and Earth. It has not only purified my eyes and ears but also made my spirit bloom. When my worn out body will come to its end, I will be not of the same sort with dirt.

But still, he who knows - not necessarily can, and he who can – will not necessarily achieve. I constantly remember that the affair of life and death is the greatest, that the time runs out fast, and although I now know the mysterious principle, but not knowing how to practice, I will never be able to accomplish, so I am still not different from those who do not know.

Dare I ask for your guidance on the timing of copulation, on the method of practice, on how to begin the work, on how to implement it?

 

钟曰：“仆有《灵宝毕法》凡十卷一十二科。中有六义：一曰金诰、二曰玉书、三曰真元、四曰比喻、五曰真诀、六曰道要。包罗大道，引喻三清。指天地阴阳之升降为范模，将日月精华之往来为法则，实五仙之旨趣，乃三成之规式，当择日授于足下”。

Zhong replied: I, your servant, have a book 《Líng bǎo bì fǎ》 in 10 volumes and 12 chapters. In it there are 6 topics: 1 -  golden announcement; 2- jade letters; 3 – the true prime; 4 – code words; 5 – the true secrets; 6 – the requirements for Dao. That book covers the Great Dao, discloses the Three Purities. It shows the model for rise and fall of yin-yang, the laws on comings and goings of the essence, substantiates the directives for 5 kinds of saints, specifies the formulas for the 3 accomplishments. Lets select an auspicious day for me to hand it to you, sir.

 

Or to summarize:

 

Lu: Teacher, you spoke to me whole day and i still dont know how to practice.

Zhong: We learn practice from books not from face to face conversations. Here take this book and go learn how to practice from it.

[Daeluin]

Or to summarize:

 

Lu: Teacher, you spoke to me whole day and i still dont know how to practice.

Zhong: We learn practice from books not from face to face conversations. Here take this book and go learn how to practice from it.

 

Let's not forget that Lu had already received a transmission from Zhong. But the rest is consistent with other stories I've heard, like in Seven Taoist Masters. There seems to be emphasis on one doing one's own work, but also in receiving a transmission from a teacher to help one discover one's blind spots and re-orient to the true center of the dao, and then one is able to complete the work on their own. If Lu had not received the heart to heart transmission from Zhong, the instructions found in Ling Bao Bi Fa would likely result in a different manifestation of the practice.

 

I simply believe that one should start with sincere practice, and invite the dao to lead one to whatever is needed to find the dao. This way of inviting a teacher is a different operation than seeking for a teacher externally. One begins to change inside, and one's external environment changes as well. And then one's new roommate studies with a taiji master and invites you to try a class, or some other such synchronicity. But one has already committed to doing the work on one's own, and the teacher is just a guide post along the way.

[damdao]

I simply believe that one should start with sincere practice, and invite the dao to lead one to whatever is needed to find the dao. This way of inviting a teacher is a different operation than seeking for a teacher externally. One begins to change inside, and one's external environment changes as well. And then one's new roommate studies with a taiji master and invites you to try a class, or some other such synchronicity. But one has already committed to doing the work on one's own, and the teacher is just a guide post along the way.

 

With due respect Daeluin, I think that your way of expressing such ideas could be a little misleading. 

I don't know why you see as different seeking eternally for a teacher, and change internally and someone invites you to a class. I think that both are ways and none of them better than the other. But in some cases I think that is more realistic to look externally or actively for a teacher, otherwise chances to be invited are nearly zero. Besides, there different kind of cultivations, the subject of the thread says "neidan", I don't know if neidan is so extended as to be invited to a class of it.

[Daeluin]

Yes, they are both ways, and what is better depends on the natural timing of the celestial mechanism. We cannot say one thing is absolutely better than another.

 

There is much talk of seeking a teacher, as though we should all study with the best teacher we can find by searching on the Internet.

And then there is the saying that real teachers won't teach students who aren't destined to learn.

And then there is the warning to avoid false teachers.

 

Is this not misleading? How do we identify a true teacher? Can a true master be a true teacher for anyone, or is the best teacher the one that I am linked to somehow, and how do I find that teacher? Can a teacher who I am not resonant with create added questions and confusion upon the surface of reality? If I go through teacher after teacher, never quite finding the right one, am I gaining greater clarity, or creating greater confusion between the subtle conflicts in how each of these teachers describes the great way from their different perspectives?

 

All of this is related to external seeking, and self-perpetuates an emphasis on the external. I've met people who have gone from master to master, they are called spiritual tourists, and they have trouble getting deep enough internally because they are never able to commit. And I've met people who are committed to one particular teacher or school, but have long since become stagnant in their change, because they think it is enough to remain with the teacher and be a member of the school, letting drop sincere responsibility for their own growth, or simply refusing to change the way the teacher leads them at the higher, more subtle levels, because they think it doesn't apply to them due to their seniority or some such. I've come to see the subtle difference between students who are drawn to a school naturally through resonance with the teacher, and with students who are drawn to the school via surface level means. Those drawn to the school naturally are able to hear the teachings with much greater clarity, while those who think they know what they are looking for, because they came to <such-and-such-school> to learn <such-and-such-practice> only seem to hear part of the transmission.

 

In an attempt to describe the principle that connects all of these things and thereby clear up this confusion, I am simply pointing prospective students to look inside, to follow the principles of the dao in their daily actions, and I am saying that the more sincerely one does this, the more one will integrate with the dao, change their destiny, and naturally find the right teachers for their own unique way.

 

I would like to apologize if my way of expressing this has not come across clearly.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Daeluin

[damdao]

No need to apologize.

I like this:

I am simply pointing prospective students to look inside, to follow the principles of the dao in their daily actions, and I am saying that the more sincerely one does this, the more one will integrate with the dao, change their destiny, and naturally find the right teachers for their own unique way.

[Aetherous]

Here is what Zhong and Lu really say in conclusion of their lengthy conversation:

 

As Daeluin pointed out, this was in the context of a teacher-student relationship. Besides, that isn't the only section of the text which discusses the implications of attempting to practice the Dao without guidance.

 

There really isn't even a need for discussion on the matter, of whether a seeker needs a teacher or not. Look at all of the accomplished practitioners here at this forum without teachers. (there isn't a single one)

[damdao]

As Daeluin pointed out, this was in the context of a teacher-student relationship. Besides, that isn't the only section of the text which discusses the implications of attempting to practice the Dao without guidance.

 

There really isn't even a need for discussion on the matter, of whether a seeker needs a teacher or not. Look at all of the accomplished practitioners here at this forum without teachers. (there isn't a single one)

Besides, I think that the right understanding of the context lead us to the conclusion that this book was a theoretical basis and then, after that, comes the practical procedures and technology. One thing that must be pointed out is that give (or "to hand") a text to someone was not so simple, the fact that they have to choose an auspicious day is a clue that it is a kind of initiation.

[Aetherous]

Besides, I think that the right understanding of the context lead us to the conclusion that this book was a theoretical basis and then, after that, comes the practical procedures and technology. One thing that must be pointed out is that give (or "to hand") a text to someone was not so simple, the fact that they have to choose an auspicious day is a clue that it is a kind of initiation.

 

Totally. Some seeker without any teacher doesn't even know what auspicious days are.

[Daeluin]

Totally. Some seeker without any teacher doesn't even know what auspicious days are.

 

These days we're pretty out of touch. But the more one is able to open to the flow of their own dao, the more they will begin to integrate with the timings of the celestial mechanism. We can study auspicious days marked in an almanac, but they aren't fixed in place - the fixed dates are always under the influence of other factors, changing their auspiciousness, and due to these influences normally non-auspicious days can become extra auspicious, and so on. We can study the intricate maths of this, another form of external seeking, but when we surrender into the flow of things, we sync up with the timing and naturally do things when they are most auspicious, as evidenced by unfolding synchronicity that is hard to believe at first.

 

I believe all of these things we are discussing are very relevant to those new to the study of neidan. As SonOfTheGods said, Read between the lines. The dao exists between polarities, underneath the words that write of it, behind the manifestations of it, unchanging, yet never fixed in place.

[Daeluin]

It's funny... we have this:

 

 

 The same document tells a bit more than what was quoted from it.

 

The highest belief in Taoism is the Dao preached by Laozi (老子).

 

Placing the daodejing on the highest pedestal, even as the daodejing itself says that things placed up high can only be brought down.

 

Read Dao De Jing. Better in Chinese, or with a parallel text. It's not the fastest way, but it will help you to feel the reality of Neidan, and, if you like it, will lead you to a teacher. But read it with an open heart, not only with the mind.

 

Even as it is placed high by others, it places itself low, and thus has no need to defend itself. The values it teaches of are simple, and yet each translator to work with it describes it so differently. It is one simple ancient text, unchanging at its root, yet continuously manifesting in new forms on the surface. Much can be learned from it, even as it recommends letting go of knowledge daily, emphasizing that what is simple is powerful, less is more.

 

Neidan can have detailed recipes on the surface, but what is important is beneath the surface, where many of these detailed changes happen naturally under the right conditions as one is able to come into sync with the flow of the timings of the celestial mechanism.

[SonOfTheGods]

Look at all of the accomplished practitioners here at this forum without teachers. (there isn't a single one)

[Daeluin]

Even as we begin to accept responsibility for our past actions, and place sincerity on harmonizing our ripples and flowing with the dao, it is also meaningful to accept that everything we are has been influenced by something else, and in that sense, by exposure to countless teachers. Thus the idea that one can be completely self-taught is somewhat egotistical.

[Taoist Texts]

 

 

. Look at all of the accomplished practitioners here at this forum

Thank you I would like to. But , please help me out here. What exactly did they accomplish again?

[Wu Ming Jen]

What is written on internal alchemy uses many key words. Many of the key words mean the same thing just put differently. The text are not like a text book or a way to learn something they are communicating  experience of the unified mind, peaceful and tranquil like original mind itself. When one has had such experience the meanings will jump off the page. without experience it is only speculation at best.