neidan for dummies?

[opendao]

No they were not Eva Wong added to that misconception by inserting a funny paragraph not extant in the original. Here is what Zhong and Lu really say in conclusion of their lengthy conversation:

 

 

吕曰：“今日特蒙事师开说希夷大理、天地玄机。不止于耳目清明而精神秀媚。残躯有托终，不与粪壤同类。然而知之者未必能行，行之者未必能得。念以生死事大而时光迅速，虽知妙理，未得行持，终不成功，与不知无异，敢求指教交会之时，行持之法，如何下手，如何用功？”

Lu said: Today, you, the merciful teacher openly explained to me the Great Principle of the Subtle Unseen, the Dark Spring of Heaven and Earth. It has not only purified my eyes and ears but also made my spirit bloom. When my worn out body will come to its end, I will be not of the same sort with dirt.

But still, he who knows - not necessarily can, and he who can – will not necessarily achieve. I constantly remember that the affair of life and death is the greatest, that the time runs out fast, and although I now know the mysterious principle, but not knowing how to practice, I will never be able to accomplish, so I am still not different from those who do not know.

Dare I ask for your guidance on the timing of copulation, on the method of practice, on how to begin the work, on how to implement it?

 

钟曰：“仆有《灵宝毕法》凡十卷一十二科。中有六义：一曰金诰、二曰玉书、三曰真元、四曰比喻、五曰真诀、六曰道要。包罗大道，引喻三清。指天地阴阳之升降为范模，将日月精华之往来为法则，实五仙之旨趣，乃三成之规式，当择日授于足下”。

Zhong replied: I, your servant, have a book 《Líng bǎo bì fǎ》 in 10 volumes and 12 chapters. In it there are 6 topics: 1 -  golden announcement; 2- jade letters; 3 – the true prime; 4 – code words; 5 – the true secrets; 6 – the requirements for Dao. That book covers the Great Dao, discloses the Three Purities. It shows the model for rise and fall of yin-yang, the laws on comings and goings of the essence, substantiates the directives for 5 kinds of saints, specifies the formulas for the 3 accomplishments. Lets select an auspicious day for me to hand it to you, sir.

 

Or to summarize:

 

Lu: Teacher, you spoke to me whole day and i still dont know how to practice.

Zhong: We learn practice from books not from face to face conversations. Here take this book and go learn how to practice from it.

 

That's all you can bring to prove your claims? A text you don't understand? It's hilarious, as well as your attempts to say that all teachers are false, but you alone are a "live true teacher". It seems you twisted your brain too much, arguing with anybody just in sake of arguing.

 

To make it crystal clear: nor Lu, nor Zhong said what you're cowardly "summarized". Obviously Lu has grasped the teaching, explained in words. Because he had been practised before. That's what "learning scriptures" is about: when an enlightened teacher explains to the student some important details, but these details don't substitute the practice, they just provide some hints, to change the student's heart-mind, point him in a right direction and so on. So Zhong is saying that to answer further questions like that, he wrote a book.

 

Summary )): it's impossible to learn Neidan without a realized Teacher, and Taoist Texts shows constantly a good example what happens if this rule is skipped.

[Taoist Texts]

. So Zhong is saying that to answer further questions like that, he wrote a book.

 

因于终南山石壁间，获收《灵宝经》三十卷。

Then (I, Zhong), went to Zhongnan mountains, in a crack of a sheer cliff found and took the “Lingbao Scripture’ in 30 scrolls.

 

 

These guys are way out of their league;)

[dawei]

This is my opinion and I only quickly scanned some posts.... 

 

Trying to suggest a teacher is necessary is like an argument for god...  The lost will require a leader but the open connection can find there is no separation.    If you want to climb a ladder (go step by step)... get a teacher;   You will be taught how to travel through many levels.

 

The earliest stories show Dao was naturally understood and followed.  When Dao loses internal and direct communication, teachers (shamans of old) arise among villages and communities to show the 'way' and be an intercessor between heaven and earth.   It is interesting to note that most ancients have some sort of transmission occur but they get it at the end of their journey.

 

There is always a direct communication available between heaven and earth within each person but that 'way' gets lost through life influences.

 

This is just my experience.  In most cases, a path via a teacher is a solid path.   If one can realize their direct connection they can get it more like the ancient way; later find that final help to connect.  Some are born with the direct connection and perception of it which would be the natural way most of us are just trying to reclaim.

 

The Great Way is always there, in every breath, in every view, in every sound, in every feeling.   What I have found is that this is a manifest realization and half of the equation of connecting heaven and earth.    

 

The goal isn't so much connecting with heaven or connecting heaven and earth... it is a full realization of the Great Way as an embodiment... that there is simply no separation and nothing to connect to. 

[opendao]

因于终南山石壁间，获收《灵宝经》三十卷。

Then (I, Zhong), went to Zhongnan mountains, in a crack of a sheer cliff found and took the “Lingbao Scripture’ in 30 scrolls.

 

 

These guys are way out of their league;)

 

read attentively the section called Lingbao bifa in The Encyclopedia of Taoism, maybe it will give you some hints how both statements are true.

[Taoist Texts]

. Thus the idea that one can be completely self-taught is somewhat egotistical.

Yes it is but is not it preferable to being deceived by the ignorant seminar pushers, who when caught in a lie try to extricate themselves with another on on top of the first one? Present company excluded of course

[opendao]

Yes it is but is not it preferable to being deceived by the ignorant seminar pushers, who when caught in a lie try to extricate themselves with another on on top of the first one? Present company excluded of course

 

are you talking about yourself then, "live true teacher"?

http://thedaobums.com/topic/38856-riding-the-phoenix-to-penglai/page-6#entry640575

 

 The (wo)man who translates 气穴 as "lair" with "rats and robbers" ))) Maybe with qi-rats and qi-robbers?     

 

such a piece of joke

[Taoist Texts]

The earliest stories show Dao was naturally understood and followed.  When Dao loses internal and direct communication, teachers (shamans of old) arise among villages and communities to show the 'way' and be an intercessor between heaven and earth.   It is interesting to note that most ancients have some sort of transmission occur but they get it at the end of their journey.

 

There is always a direct communication available between heaven and earth within each person but that 'way' gets lost through life influences.

 

This is all true. It is completely true for the say, Indo-Tibetan tradition where the guru is all powerful dispenser of knowledge. No great and awesome guru - no nothing. Indian tradition is guru-based Which of course deservedly leads the true believers right to Osho's and his ilks' golden RRs.

 

Not quite so in Taoism, though. Here a teacher is a relatively effaced figure of a messenger. The moment he takes the position of an owner of the teaching, is the moment his falsity is disclosed.

 

Look at the example of Zhong Liquan the founder of the mainline alchemical Taoism, (misnamed 'neidan' in vulgar parlance). Not only he did not have a teacher himself, having learned from a heavenly book directly, he also passes his transmission to the next generations in a form of that book. And so it was ever since. The Chinese tradition is scripture-based, as a way to insulate it from the false teachers, who desperately try to squeeze in as unnecessary middlemen.

 

 

As a small contribution to our vibrant community, below is a very telling excerpts from the text Zhong received from Heavens and passed down to us. Note the self-effacing way he calls himself 'the servant', note also the total absence of the word 'teacher' in his moving account.

 

 

秘传正阳真人灵宝毕法

秘传正阳真人灵宝毕法序

《灵宝毕法序》

 

            道不可以言传，不可以名纪。历古以来，升仙达道者，不为少矣。仆志慕前贤，心怀大道，不意运起刀兵，时危世乱，始以逃生，寄迹江湖岩谷，退而识性留心，唯在清净希夷。历看丹经，累参道友，止言养命之小端，不说真仙之大道。因于终南山石壁间，获收《灵宝经》三十卷。上部《金诰书》，元始所著。中部《玉录》，元皇所述。下部《真源义》，太上所传。共数千言。予宵衣旰食，远虑深省，乃悟阴中有阳，阳中有阴，本天地升降之宜，日月交合之理。气中生水，水中生气，亦心肾交合之理。比物之象，道不远人。

配合甲庚，方验金丹之有准。抽添卯酉，自然火候之无差。红铅黑铅，彻底不成大药。金液玉液，到头方是还丹。从无入有，常怀征战之心。自下升高，渐入希夷之域。抽铅添汞，致二八之阴消。换骨炼形，使九三之阳长。水源清浊，辨于既济之时。内景真虚，识于坐忘之日。

玄机奥旨，难以尽形方册。灵宝妙理，可用入圣超凡。总而为三乘之法，名《灵宝毕法》。大道圣言，不敢私入一己用，传洞宾足下，道成勿秘，当请后来之士。

正阳真人锺离权云买房序。

 

The Foreword to Lingbao Bifa

 

Dao can not be transmitted in spoken words, can not be written down in terms. Since the antiquity, those who ascended to sainthood and achieved Dao – are not few.

 

I, the servant, striven to venerate the previous sages, nourished the great Dao in my heart, but unexpectedly ‘swords and soldiers’ rose up, the times were dangerous, the world was tumultuous, so first I run for my life, hid my footprints between rivers and marshes, cliffs and valleys, retired there, but kept my mind keen, the heart careful; concentrated on the Invisible, Pure and Clean.

 

Throughout this time I read the cinnabar books, continuously asked for advice from the friends in Dao, pursued the small ends of ‘stopping words and nourishing fate’, but never spoke with a true saint about the great Dao.

 

It was like that, when I went to Zhongnan mountain, where, in a crack of a sheer cliff I have found and took the “Lingbao Scripture’ in 30 scrolls. The upper part ‘The golden announcements’ was authored by the Prime Beginning, the middle part ‘The jade registers’ was narrated by the Prime August-ness, the lower part ‘The true fountain of meaning’ was transmitted by the Highest on High.

 

Upon that, I ‘put on my clothes before dawn and ate after dusk’ (worked diligently on understanding the book /comm. transl/), thought over it far, penetrated it deep, and realized that within yin there is yang, within yang there is yin, that the Heaven and Earth rise and fall according to laws, that the sun and moon copulate according to principles. Within the qi the water is born, within the water the qi is born, such is the principle of the heart and kidneys copulating. Similarly to these models – Dao is not far from people as well.

 

The matching and joining of signs jia and geng, is the precise test for the golden cinnabar. The retreating and advancing of signs mao and you, is the unmistakable nature of the fire phases. The red mercury, the black lead, are not they the completion of the great medicine? The golden juice and the jade liquid, are the complete recipe for the refined elixir. From non-being into being, that’s the crux of the constantly nourished march. From below to rise high – enter gradually into the city of the Invisible. Retreat the lead, add mercury, till the double eight dissipates yin. Exchange the bones, make the nine three grow yang. The water fountain will purify the filth, that will mark the time of the Jìjì hexagram. The internal landscape truly empty – know to sit in forgetting all day long.

 

Thus the Dark Spring is deeply shown, which was hardly ever disclosed in texts. The marvelous principles of the Numinous Treasure allow to enter the sainthood, transcending the mundane. This summary of the Three Vehicles method is titled ‘Lingbao Bifa’. These words of the great Dao saints I dare not to selfishly use for myself alone, so I transmit this book to Dong-bin, the kind sir, so as to make the completion of Dao not secret, and to bequeath it to the later gentry.

 

The true man of the Righteous Yang, Zhōng Líquán, nicknamed Yún Mǎifáng wrote this foreword.

[opendao]

This is all true. It is completely true for the say, Indo-Tibetan tradition where the guru is all powerful dispenser of knowledge. No great and awesome guru - no nothing. Indian tradition is guru-based Which of course deservedly leads the true believers right to Osho's and his ilks' golden RRs.

 

Not quite so in Taoism, though. Here a teacher is a relatively effaced figure of a messenger. The moment he takes the position of an owner of the teaching, is the moment his falsity is disclosed.

 

Right. And nobody sane takes such a position of the "owner" even in the modern Daoism or Neidan. Any teacher was a student yesterday, and his/her teacher taught him/her without any secrets. So if you like labels, such teachers are "transmitters" of the knowledge, from heart to heart.

 

People outside of the tradition don't understand that the knowledge itself cannot be expressed in words, so the teacher and text are both necessary for a proper education.

 

Look at the example of Zhong Liquan the founder of the mainline alchemical Taoism, (misnamed 'neidan' in vulgar parlance). Not only he did not have a teacher himself, having learned from a heavenly book directly, he also passes his transmission to the next generations in a form of that book. And so it was ever since. The Chinese tradition is scripture-based, as a way to insulate it from the false teachers, who desperately try to squeeze in as unnecessary middlemen.

 

道不可以言传，不可以名纪。历古以来，升仙达道者，不为少矣。

Dao can not be transmitted in spoken words, can not be written down in terms. 

 

So just a bunch of fantasies again... But let's discuss the results: where people like Zhong Liquan and his student in the modern world? Why the books are full of techniques that don't lead to Great Dao? Why self-taught "daoists" are confused about the vary basics of Neidan? Obviously, because there is no heart to heart transmission from an enlightened teacher.

 

And more, imagine TT is right, and "The Chinese tradition is scripture-based, as a way to insulate it from the false teachers, who desperately try to squeeze in as unnecessary middlemen."

Why then we have a world full of ignorant false teachers as TT him/herself? If scriptures are enough, then why nobody outside the traditional schools can attain Dao in the past? Obviously, something important is missed, and it's a teacher. 

[Walker]

Taoist Texts, I am confused.

 

You reference a piece of writing that starts with "道不可以言传，不可以名纪" in order to tell us that Immortal Zhongli learned solely from books? The English translation you present reads, Dao can not be transmitted in spoken words, can not be written down in terms, meaning that apparently the passage opens by warning people that they won't find the Dao in books or even spoken language... right? Yet that seems to be the antithesis of the point you're making here and in other threads.

 

You translate "历看丹经，累参道友，止言养命之小端，不说真仙之大道" as, throughout this time I read the cinnabar books, continuously asked for advice from the friends in Dao, pursued the small ends of ‘stopping words and nourishing fate’, but never spoke with a true saint about the great Dao.

 

The first problem I see here (I might be wrong) is that interpreting "不说真仙之大道" as but never spoke with a true saint about the great Dao seems like a very elastic interpretation. First of all, there is no character meaning "but" at the beginning of the clause. Secondly, I don't recall often seeing "不" used to mean "never." Neither 《新华字典》 nor 《古汉语常用字字典》 present such a definition for "不" in classical Chinese; the likely character one would expect to see informing your translation would be "未," or maybe "无."

 

Perhaps others who read Chinese can speak up. In short, what I mean to say is that I suspect your rendering, but never spoke with a true saint about the great Dao, needs revisiting.

 

The second problem I see might arise from how your interpret the structure of those four clauses, "历看丹经，累参道友，止言养命之小端，不说真仙之大道." You take it as Immortal Zhongli giving readers a synopsis of what he did during a period of time. Looking at the context, I don't think you're totally wrong. If I recall correctly, Master Zhongli was a general who was routed in a bloody battle, and forced to abandoned his slaughtered troops and retreat into hiding in the mountains, whereupon he became a cultivator. So “不意运起刀兵，时危世乱，始以逃生，寄迹江湖岩谷，退而识性留心” seems to refer to this section of his biography.

 

However, if you look at how the punctuation is presented here you'll see that there's a period after "而識性留心." Subsequently we're presented with "惟在清淨希夷。歷看丹經。累參道友。止言養命之小端。不說真仙之大道." Starting with the character "历" you present a translation beginning with, throughout this time I read the cinnabar books. However, let me point out that the traditional character "歷," according to 《古汉语常用字字典》 also means "逐个、一一地" Moreover, when "歷" is used twice in succession it means "清晰分明," to clearly distinguish, a construction that yields numerous chengyu.

 

With the above in mind, let's take a second look at "惟在清淨希夷。歷看丹經。累參道友。止言養命之小端。不說真仙之大道。" To me, it seems like instead of a simple recounting of Zhongli's activities during a period of time, what we're actually seeing is a terse synopsis of the meat of Daoist study and practice. The final four sentences seem to constitute two couplets, the first four characters long, the second seven characters long. My rough interpretation (I would appreciate input from others who can read Chinese, especially if anybody understands the import of the final two sentences to Daoist practice) of these five clauses is thus:

 

惟在清淨希夷。[Dao] resides in clarity and purity [synonymous with 清静?] and xiyi [this word is so rich with implication that I'm reluctant to translate it].

歷看丹經。Read the alchemical classics one by one.

累參道友。Repeatedly call upon Daoist friends.

止言養命之小端。The small method [端] of stopping words [to?] nourish ming [perhaps analogous to the first line of Lv Dongbin's 100 Character Stele, "养气忘言守," but I'm not sure]

不說真仙之大道。The not-spoken great Dao of true immortals [perhaps a reference to 不言之教?]

 

I'm not especially happy with my translation but, in any case, I am very reluctant to agree with your argument that "不说真仙之大道" means but never spoke with a true saint about the great Dao. However, we aren't the only two people on this board who can read a little Chinese; let's see what others say.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Walker

[Walker]

And more, imagine TT is right, and "The Chinese tradition is scripture-based, as a way to insulate it from the false teachers, who desperately try to squeeze in as unnecessary middlemen."

Why then we have a world full of ignorant false teachers as TT him/herself? If scriptures are enough, then why nobody outside the traditional schools can attain Dao in the past? Obviously, something important is missed, and it's a teacher. 

 

For the sake of preventing readers here who have no connection to the actual Daoist tradition from being confused, I don't think we should even suppose he is right. All I can say to people who might be wondering is that Taoist Texts is flat out wrong; his notions about the role of texts and teacher-to-student transmission in Daoism (not to mention every other aspect of classical Chinese culture I can think of) are specious.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Walker

[Taoist Texts]

Taoist Texts, I am confused.

 

You reference a piece of writing that starts with "道不可以言传，不可以名纪" in order to tell us that Immortal Zhongli learned solely from books?   However, we aren't the only two people on this board who can read a little Chinese; let's see what others say.

Hi;)

 

by all means lets wait for the others to weigh in. I also would be happy to analyze the Chinese in more detail highlighted by you. However these details do not change the message of Zhong's foreword.

 

Would you agree that his message is: 'I have pulled a book from a hole in a rock, had a realization from it completely unassisted, passed the book down the line so the others could do the same'.

 

Yey or nay?

[Walker]

Would you agree that his message is: 'I have pulled a book from a hole in a rock, had a realization from it completely unassisted, passed the book down the line so the others could do the same'.

 

No, I would not agree that his message is what you say.

 

Again one of the obstacles to concluding that you're right comes down to punctuation. As many board members might not know, a text dating to the Five Dynasties period would have been written with no punctuation marks, and no spaces between any of the characters. Therefore a difficulty facing anybody, Chinese or foreign, who wants to read old texts, is the question, where should we infer that the punctuation resides?

 

If you look carefully at the link to the same scripture that I provided, the punctuation is different.

 

Version you used: 因于终南山石壁间，获收《灵宝经》三十卷。

 

Version I used: 因於終南山石壁間。獲收靈寶經三十卷。

 

If one assumes that there's a comma between "间" and "获," then it it's pretty natural to assume that he's talking about yanking a text from betwixt you some cracks in a cliff.

 

However, the decision of other editors to put a period there gives us enough pause to think more deeply about the character "间." What else can this character mean in classical Chinese?

 

 

• A short period of time
• A small road
• To keep at a distance (远离)
• To hide in secret ("隔开众人,使自己隐而不现")
• There are yet other meanings, as well, including to do something secretively--the character is used this way in 《扁鹊传》when Bianque receives a secret recipe that gives him magic powers, which is passed to him secretively by Changsang Jun.

Considering that we're talking about a man supposedly on the run in the mountains, I am prone to suspect that there's a very high chance what is mean is that he hid in secret in those cliffs--隔开众人,使自己隐而不现, or separate oneself from the masses, making oneself hidden, not appearing.

 

In the next sentence he says he received the Ling Bao Bi Fa texts, yes. However, to assume that it was not passed to him by a person, and that he was not given any oral instructions in the Dao is not only massive conjecture, but also a sign that you seem to be ignoring the greater context surrounding Zhongli Quan's (Zhongli is a two-character last name, by the way; his name is Quan) biography/hagiography.

 

Below are two very important points that argue against your ideas:

 

First of all, from the Explanatory Dictionary of Daoism, we have this: "《列仙全傳》卷三略云仕五代之劉漢為大將軍， 征吐蕃失利， 獨騎奔逃山谷。 迷失道路， 夜入深林， 遇一胡僧， 引行數里， 見一村莊， 謂此東華先產生道處。 東華先生授以赤符玉籙、 金科靈文、 大月秘訣、 周天火候、 青龍劍法等道術。 並見《逍遙虛經》卷一。" I don't have time to try and translate it word for word. For non-Chinese-readers, the gist is, Immortal Zhongli was lost deep in the forest at night when he encountered a non-Chinese Buddhist monk who led him to a village many miles away and told him it was the abode of Donghua Dijun (The Imperial Lord of Eastern Florescence, to use another's translation). Donghua Dijun then gave numerous teachings (with hard-to-translate names like Crimson Talisman Jade Talisman, Numinous Writings on the Golden Science, Secret Teaching of the Great Moon, Orbital Firing Times, and Green Dragon Sword Method) and a scripture that you could maybe call the Empty Classic on Wandering Freely.

 

The idea that Zhongli Quan's teacher was Donghua Dijun is no secret and you could find variations of the same story anywhere on Google or Baidu or in books that detail the lives of Daoist saints. Since we're all working with the same biographical and hagiographical information here, any unsubstantiated belief that Immortal Zhongli had no teacher is problematic--you have to be able to explain your assumption.

 

Furthermore, let's assume that that sentence about the cliffs actually does mean that he pulled a scripture from a hole in a rock, like a Tibetan terton. Even if that is the meaning, the hagiographies tell us that Ancestor Zhongli received instruction from Donghua Dijun. He's able to understand what he reads, because he was given direct transmission in esoteric teachings.

 

Now we come to my second point. We have addressed that Immortal Zhongli has a teacher. What about his disciple, Immortal Lv Dongbin? Does he have any input on the matter?

 

Again referring to the very useful Explanatory Dictionary of Daoism, this time for its entry on the Ling Bao Bi Fa scripture, we have the following statement: "至下手功夫， 姑借咽氣嗽液為喻， 而真機口訣實在口傳心授， 不在文字也," or, with regards undertaking this [scripture's] gongfu, [we] temporarily borrow swallowing qi and coughing fluids in the way of analogy, whilst the real mechanism's oral explanation is really in oral transmission and heart transmission, not in written words.

 

So...

 

No we have questions of punctuation, meaning of Chinese characters, Zhongli Quan's background, and his disciple's admonition weighing in on your specific question above, as well as your general belief about not relying solely on scripture.

 

Can I say that you're wrong, that Ancestor Zhongli definitely didn't just reach into a rock, find a book, and have a bunch of lightbulbs go off in his head (the right lightbulbs, mind you), without ever having been instructed in how to understand Daoist writings in the first place? No, I cannot say you are definitely wrong. But I think everybody reading this will understand where my doubts come from. Perhaps you will speak with a little less absolute surety in future. Perhaps not.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Walker

[Taoist Texts]

 Taoist Texts is flat out wrong; his notions about the role of texts and teacher-to-student transmission in Daoism (not to mention every other aspect of classical Chinese culture I can think of) are specious.

 

Think Confucianism Walker. Is Confucius classical enough for you?

 

《子張 - Zi Zhang》

 

 

 

衛公孫朝問於子貢曰：「仲尼焉學？」

子貢曰：「文武之道，未墜於地，在人。賢者識其大者，不賢者識其小者，莫不有文武之道焉。夫子焉不學？而亦何常師之有？」

 

 

Gong Sun Zhao of Wei asked Zi Gong, saying. "From whom did Confucius  get his learning?"

 

Zi Gong replied, "The doctrines of Wen and Wu have not yet fallen to the ground. They are to be found among men. Men of talents and virtue remember the greater principles of them, and others, not possessing such talents and virtue, remember the smaller. Thus, all possess the doctrines of Wen and Wu. Where could our Master go that he should not have an opportunity of learning them? And what necessity was there for him to have a regular teacher?"

 

[Walker]

Yaaaaawwwwwnnnn.

 

You selected a sentence about how Confucius learned from "men of talents and virtue" to try and prove that people don't need teachers and that classical Chinese learning comes through books, not person-to-person transmission. Your foot is in your mouth.

 

Apparently a man who is enchanted by his own ideas will see them confirmed in everything he reads. Dangerous.

[flowing hands]

I'm sure this has been asked before, so please excuse this philosophical Daoist. What is/are the best books on beginning neidan. Or as I titled the thread, is there a neidan for dummies? I've read the Golden Flower, but did so more as a Jungian than a Daoist and got the impression that may not be the best place to start.

 

Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

Neidan involves many different practices. If one was to believe certain forums who follow the Mo Pai of John Chang, Neidan is only meditation. It certainly is not and no book can teach you what you are seeking. You could perhaps learn a small part of it, but without a teacher or even with one, how do you know whether or not you are doing what is being taught to you is right? A maze that I would not even bother going down personally.

[Taoist Texts]

 

Yaaaaawwwwwnnnn.

 

..... Dangerous.

enjoy;)

[Basil]

Neidan involves many different practices. If one was to believe certain forums who follow the Mo Pai of John Chang, Neidan is only meditation. It certainly is not and no book can teach you what you are seeking. You could perhaps learn a small part of it, but without a teacher or even with one, how do you know whether or not you are doing what is being taught to you is right? A maze that I would not even bother going down personally.

Thank you for your feedback.  This plus the direction this thread has taken has led me to believe that I just shouldn't worry about it right now.  I'll keep sitting with the Dao De Jing & the Yijing and call it a day.

[Walker]

Thank you for your feedback.  This plus the direction this thread has taken has led me to believe that I just shouldn't worry about it right now.  I'll keep sitting with the Dao De Jing & the Yijing and call it a day.

 

That's probably not a bad idea, but if you have an interest in Daoist alchemy an old master might suggest that you remain open to whatever comes your way.

 

I've read some For Dummies books--Daoism, physiology, maybe flipped through a few others. They're really not very good. Lots of the books that try to be "Daoist alchemy for dummies" really aren't very good, either.

 

"Dumb" also means mute. The fact is that very few who understand alchemy in part or in whole ever talk about it openly. The books that do come close to being "Neidan for Dummies" haven't been translated into English, and even these texts are almost impenetrable to the uninitiated. Unfortunately, it is easy to read these books, interpret their contents as though one were reading about TCM or qigong, and conclude that one understands them.

 

I would say keep reading, but with a very open mind and lots of detachment. Words like neidan are used very liberally, here and in China. The picture one gets in the beginning is extremely blurry. Those who have affinity are not deterred and keep at their studies for years and years, while also cultivating their de. Gradually things come into focus.

[SonOfTheGods]

Neidan involves many different practices. If one was to believe certain forums who follow the Mo Pai of John Chang, Neidan is only meditation. It certainly is not and no book can teach you what you are seeking. You could perhaps learn a small part of it, but without a teacher or even with one, how do you know whether or not you are doing what is being taught to you is right? A maze that I would not even bother going down personally.

MoPai level 1 is just meditation- then it is active gongs, both standing and sitting, thereafter

 

Just posting that before someone else says it, but with less charm lol

[子泰]

.

Edited August 20, 2015 by 子泰

[Apech]

MoPai level 1 is just meditation- then it is active gongs, both standing and sitting, thereafter

 

Just posting that before someone else says it, but with less charm lol

 

 

Active gongs at Mo Pai wedding.

[flowing hands]

MoPai level 1 is just meditation- then it is active gongs, both standing and sitting, thereafter

 

Just posting that before someone else says it, but with less charm lol

 

Of course it all depends on what path one takes as to what practices one does and wishes to achieve. Achievement at a mortal level is hardly worth talking about although to us it may seem super human, it is therefore the path of the afterlife that interests me where unlimited power is available. A path of trying to move objects or burn paper will not secure that sort of power and this path doesn't lead to a long mortal life as in general the 'power' will damage the body more than it will sustain. It is a very tricky path, one not undertaken as I have suggested, without great consideration and knowledge. Such knowledge is rare in the world, although the internet is full of 'experts'.

[SonOfTheGods]

Of course it all depends on what path one takes as to what practices one does and wishes to achieve. Achievement at a mortal level is hardly worth talking about although to us it may seem super human, it is therefore the path of the afterlife that interests me where unlimited power is available. A path of trying to move objects or burn paper will not secure that sort of power and this path doesn't lead to a long mortal life as in general the 'power' will damage the body more than it will sustain. It is a very tricky path, one not undertaken as I have suggested, without great consideration and knowledge. Such knowledge is rare in the world, although the internet is full of 'experts'.

 

Neidan is internal alchemy- so it should bring evident and discernable reactions such as "siddhis" or 'abilities above the human standard'

 

If it does not, then it is in the same grouping as QiGong

 

QiGong, NeiGong, NeiDan, in the quest for JinDan

 

Real MoPai is the real deal- it is powerful and will bring effective change to the practitioner.

 

The overlapping, and some bad information and some shady dealings exist in all branches of the internal arts = so we can't blame the systems but rather the teachers/students.

 

Example: You build internal power then compete in pushhands... your opponent goes flying.

 

Leverage and skill not withstanding- real internal power is demonstrable.

[voidisyinyang]

Yet the real masters refuse mma youtube fights. Hilarious.joe rogaine continues to belittle qi fighting. Too bad a haidan doesn't go mma. Just a keanu reeves wire flick i guess.

[JinlianPai]

Yet the real masters refuse mma youtube fights. Hilarious.joe rogaine continues to belittle qi fighting. Too bad a haidan doesn't go mma. Just a keanu reeves wire flick i guess.

 

To take the mystical skills you learned from your sect and to use it to harm other people not trained as such for money fame and pride...all because some outsider made a few comments?

 

Disgraceful.